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Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 12:19 PM
I don't want to say anything bad about my family but... among the retired names of hurricanes...

Betsy 1965 (first cousin)
Carol 1954 (aunt)
Connie 1955 (cousin by marriage)
David 1979 (uncle)
Diana 1990 (sister)
Donna 1960 (first cousin)
Frederic 1979 (brother, but he uses the K)
Gilbert 1988 (great uncle)
Hazel 1954 (my mother)
Hugo 1989 (my father)
Isabel 2003 (great great grandmother)
Opal 1995 (my grandmother)

And no, nobody named Katrina. Katya, yes, Katrina, no.

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Yeahbut--you have so many brothers and sisters and cousins, it's no surprise that a hurricane name that someone in your extended family didn't have is the exception rather than the rule!

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Yeahbut--you have so many brothers and sisters and cousins, it's no surprise that a hurricane name that someone in your extended family didn't have is the exception rather than the rule!
ROFL!! Okay, I'll buy that. But not many people can say they have had major hurricanes named after both parents and a grandparent! Hazel and Hugo were both Category 4 and Opal was Category 3! (And all three were among the 20 worst to hit in the 1900-2005 time period.) (So far.)

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 07:52 PM
ROFL!!But not many people can say they have had major hurricanes named after both parents and a grandparent!
No argument there! :D

--Lindsey

Mike Landi
August 28th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Katrina looks like an iron-clad BIT*H of a storm. With the Gulf over 87 degrees, this storm has a lot of energy to tap into.

It does look like The Big Easy is about to pay the long-overdue debt to the hurricane bank.

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 09:34 PM
One of the National Hurricane Center guys said this might weaken a little, but it would still be the same thing as getting hit by a freight train on one hand or an 18-wheeler on the other...

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 10:28 PM
With the Gulf over 87 degrees, this storm has a lot of energy to tap into.
Some of the temperature readings I was seeing on CNN a couple of days ago had water temperatures in some spots (including off the coast of New Orleans) as high as 89 degrees. I don't know whether this is one more manifestation of global warming or not, but my hunch is that it global warming is at least part of the picture.

--Lindsey

Dick K
August 29th, 2005, 03:15 AM
I don't know whether this is one more manifestation of global warming or not, but my hunch is that it global warming is at least part of the picture.And, of course, global warming has been allowed to run unchecked because of the United States' failure to join the Kyoto Treaty. Said failure, as everyone knows, is a direct result of the Administration's efforts to block any and all environmental protection measures which might interfere with the profits of the multinational corporations who are the real power behind this Administration. Thus, it is clear to anyone who has seen "The Day After Tomorrow" that the evil Republicans and their wicked neo-con hirelings are responsible for Hurricane Katrina and any havoc it may wreak in New Orleans! (I knew you could do it if you tried....)

RayB (France)
August 29th, 2005, 03:35 AM
And, of course, global warming has been allowed to run unchecked because of the United States' failure to join the Kyoto Treaty. Said failure, as everyone knows, is a direct result of the Administration's efforts to block any and all environmental protection measures which might interfere with the profits of the multinational corporations who are the real power behind this Administration. Thus, it is clear to anyone who has seen "The Day After Tomorrow" that the evil Republicans and their wicked neo-con hirelings are responsible for Hurricane Katrina and any havoc it may wreak in New Orleans! (I knew you could do it if you tried....)

I already KNEW zat!

Mike Landi
August 29th, 2005, 08:11 AM
I wonder how much flooding there will be in New Orleans. I hope they are prepared....

Wayne Scott
August 29th, 2005, 10:01 AM
And shame on you and all the other neo-cons for doing this to Big Easy.

Lefty in Larchmont

Wayne Scott
August 29th, 2005, 10:04 AM
I don't have that long list, but the next storm to be named will be Lee. My daughter, Lee Annette Scott hopes that her namesake won't be as vicious.
Yes, Lee and I both know that the next storm will be considered a male name.

Proud Papa

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:07 AM
Oh! I forgot! How could I have forgotten!?!? That hurricane recently -- Dennis -- ???? That's my darling nephew-godson's name! That one was due to hit while I was on vacation with Dennis and his brother and parents and I kept telling his mother to tell him to tell his namesake to move weeeeessssssst. (She did, he did, it did.)

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:09 AM
I wonder how much flooding there will be in New Orleans. I hope they are prepared....
There's no way to be prepared for a Category 4/5 hurricane. Mostly you just pray... Looks like N'awlins may have dodged this bullet for the most part. Flooding yes but maybe, just maybe, no breach in the levees.

Mike Landi
August 29th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Flooding yes but maybe, just maybe, no breach in the levees.

Let's hope so. If a major break happens, there will be huge damage.

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 04:59 PM
So far so good. Just one levee problem so nowhere near as much flooding as feared. It's still very ugly and will take a long time to clean up... but nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

OTOH there are some cities in Mississippi getting hammered that didn't expect it this bad...

Lindsey
August 29th, 2005, 10:00 PM
Take it up with Kerry Emanuel at MIT:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/29/145206

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 29th, 2005, 10:02 PM
There's no way to be prepared for a Category 4/5 hurricane. Mostly you just pray... Looks like N'awlins may have dodged this bullet for the most part. Flooding yes but maybe, just maybe, no breach in the levees.
One breach; some 40,000 homes destroyed, I think. But as bad as that is, it could have been a lot worse.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Forty THOUSAND destroyed??? Oh my... oh my...

Dick K
August 29th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Take it up with Kerry Emanuel at MIT:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/29/145206Wow! Gosh! Gee!

It looks as though New Orleans was spared from total catastrophe; I guess that MoveOn.org petition really worked!

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 08:35 PM
Forty THOUSAND destroyed??? Oh my... oh my...
I should have written "flooded". But yes, 40,000.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 08:37 PM
It looks as though New Orleans was spared from total catastrophe; I guess that MoveOn.org petition really worked!
What on earth are you smoking? Whatever it is, I'd give it up; it's making you look like an idiot.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 30th, 2005, 08:51 PM
I saw that report today -- 40,000 homes in one of the flooded neighborhoods. And that was before the levee was breached.

Oh man...

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 09:18 PM
And that was before the levee was breached.
I thought that was after the levee was breached, and that was the cause of the flooding of those particular homes. But maybe not; often the early reporting in a situation like that is a little bit confused.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 30th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Heck, the reporting even now is a little bit confused. I'm surprised the media is doing as well as it is, considering the limits on getting around!

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 11:38 PM
I'm surprised the media is doing as well as it is, considering the limits on getting around!
Ain't that the truth! The Times-Picayune has had to evacuate a couple of its sites, but they're still putting out stories, and they say they'll continue publishing the newspaper in PDF format. It sounds like reporters are calling in what news they can from wherever they are, and using the web site to issue official announcements for employees as well as their readers.

You'll appreciate the ending they had on one of their evacuation announcements:


T-P EVACUATING
Tuesday, 9:40 a.m.

The Times-Picayune is evacuating it's New Orleans building.

Water continues to rise around our building, as it is throughout the region. We want to evaucate our employees and families while we are still able to safely leave our building.

Our plan is to head across the Mississippi River on the Pontchartrain Expressway to the west bank of New Orleans and Jefferson Parish. From there, we'll try to head to Houma.

Our plan, obviously, is to resume providing news to our readers ASAP. Please refer back to this site for continuing information as soon as we are able to provide it.


-30-

Entergy (the power company in the region) is saying it will likely have to rebuild their power system, which will take at least a month. At the peak of the outages, there were some 1.1 million homes without power in Louisiana and Mississippi.

Jefferson Parish residents won't be allowed to return to their homes before Monday, and even then only to pick up a few necessary belongings. After that, they're being asked to stay away for a month. A month! One report said that martial law had been declared there, but a later story clarified to say that no, it wasn't martial law, just a state of emergency.

There was also, unfortunately, a story saying that some policemen were participating in looting: http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075195

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 11:34 AM
It's just staggering. Staggering. Hard to believe. Hard to imagine. And the snakes and the rats and the red ants... oh my...

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 03:54 PM
What on earth are you smoking? Whatever it is, I'd give it up; it's making you look like an idiot.
Thank you for elevating the tone of this discussion with such a witty and profound comment.

The left would love to blame Katrina on global warming. Just think of the implications: The fascist Bushie neo-cons (Have I used the correct term here?) have refused to sign on to Kyoto and therefore are turning their backs on global warming. Thus, unless we drive the moneyl^H^H^H^H^H^H Republicans from government now, we shall be faced with imminent tornados, hurricanes, and plagues of locusts! Oh, woe! Oh, the humanity!

And we know that Katrina was caused by global warming, because the Democracy Now! website says so! This "argument" has about as much scientific basis as its polar opposite--assuarances by the loony fundamentalist right that Katrina is God's way of punishing New Orleans for tolerating feminism, immorality, homosexuality, pornography, rap music, and bad haircuts.

Even the good, grey "New York Times" recognizes the weakness (to put it gently) of the "Katrina was caused by global warming" hysteria. See this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html) (which may require registration or Bugmenot), which notes,

Because hurricanes form over warm ocean water, it is easy to assume that the recent rise in their number and ferocity is because of global warming.

But that is not the case, scientists say. Instead, the severity of hurricane seasons changes with cycles of temperatures of several decades in the Atlantic Ocean. The recent onslaught "is very much natural," said William M. Gray, a professor of atmospheric science at Colorado State University who issues forecasts for the hurricane season.

You invited me to "take it up with [MIT Professor] Kerry Emmanuel," whose interview with calm, dispassionate, evenhanded Pacifica Radio/Democracy Now! polemicist Amy Goodman was published on the Democracy Now! web site, to which you provided a link. Well, I did indeed read the interview, and the comment by Emmanuel which most struck me (and which you and Goodman seem to have glossed over) was this:

So, of course, it's tempting. We have had this very active last ten years, along the U.S. and gulf coasts to blame that on global warming, but looking at it statistically, that's a very difficult connection to make. I think what you are seeing mostly is a natural cycle in this case.
In other words, global warming may have some yet-to-be-determined long-term effect on the Earth's meteorology, but to say that Katrina or other recent hurricanes were the result of global warming is flat out unwarranted.

And with that, I can agree. (I also regard many of the attempts to promote the "Katrina was caused by global warming" line to be a very thinly-disguised effort to exploit a horrific natural disaster for partisan political purposes.)

Lindsey
August 31st, 2005, 04:43 PM
to say that Katrina or other recent hurricanes were the result of global warming is flat out unwarranted.
Please show me where I ever asserted that Katrina or any other hurricane was the direct result of global warming. I didn't. That and all the rest of the argument you attribute to me was a straw man of your own construction, which you then proceeded to gleefully knock down. (Talk about elevating the tone...) Congratulations; Decisive victories over straw men is something you have become very good at.

I was answering Mike's message noting the very warm temperatures of the water in the Gulf, which would give added energy to the storm. I made an offhand remark tentatively suggesting a connection between those very high temperatures and global warming. The link to the interview with Kerry Emmanuel (which aired after my original message) was intended to show that connecting more intense hurricane activity to warmer ocean temperatures to global warming isn't a nutty idea. Worldwide, that's what he's seeing. In the Atlantic, he says, there's a 20-30 year cycle of hurricane activity that obscures any signal that might result from global warming. I'm willing to accept that.

Global warming is a matter of science, not politics. So unless you are asserting that global warming is just something the environmentalists made up as a political issue, I'm not the one who brought politics into this discussion; you are.

And if you can't make your argument except in terms of mockery and derision, I really don't care to discuss it with you further.

--Lindsey

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 04:59 PM
Please show me where I ever asserted that Katrina or any other hurricane was the direct result of global warming. I didn't.
And speaking of straw men, please show me where I ever claimed that you "asserted that Katrina or any other hurricane was the direct result of global warming." I didn't.

rlohmann
August 31st, 2005, 05:25 PM
"Katya" is the Russian nickname for the--equally Russian--Ekaterina.

rlohmann
August 31st, 2005, 05:33 PM
The fascist Bushie neo-cons (Have I used the correct term here?) have refused to sign on to Kyoto and therefore are turning their backs on global warming. Thus, unless we drive the moneyl^H^H^H^H^H^H Republicans from government now, we shall be faced with imminent tornados, hurricanes, and plagues of locusts! Oh, woe! Oh, the humanity! A pretty accurate summary of the latest rant by Jürgen Trittin, the German Minister of the Environment. With a few honorable exceptions, the German news media are using that as a theme for a frenzy of Bush- and US-bashing.

What a great group.

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 05:48 PM
I know... I know... but I don't need to deal with nicknames: I have enough letter for letter exact names to feel guilty for!

Lindsey
August 31st, 2005, 05:58 PM
And speaking of straw men, please show me where I ever claimed that you "asserted that Katrina or any other hurricane was the direct result of global warming." I didn't.
Who the hell were you answering, then?

And, of course, global warming has been allowed to run unchecked because of the United States' failure to join the Kyoto Treaty. Said failure, as everyone knows, is a direct result of the Administration's efforts to block any and all environmental protection measures which might interfere with the profits of the multinational corporations who are the real power behind this Administration. Thus, it is clear to anyone who has seen "The Day After Tomorrow" that the evil Republicans and their wicked neo-con hirelings are responsible for Hurricane Katrina and any havoc it may wreak in New Orleans! (I knew you could do it if you tried....)
That was posted in reply to my message, and quoting my message. If you weren't aiming that at me, then I'll thank you to stop hanging rants at unspecified opponents off of answers posted to me.

--Lindsey

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 06:03 PM
What on earth are you smoking? Whatever it is, I'd give it up; it's making you look like an idiot.

And if you can't make your argument except in terms of mockery and derision, I really don't care to discuss it with you further.
How does that line about pots and kettles go...?

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 06:13 PM
What a great group.Ralph -

Alas, they are not alone. See this (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/30/katrinas_real_name/) incrediblly shrill screed by someone named Ross Gelbspan which appeared as an op-ed piece in yesterday's "Boston Globe." (Doubtless to be reprinted in numerous left-wing blogs before the ink is dry....)

Wayne Scott
September 3rd, 2005, 12:47 AM
In the Tapcis days, you would have kicked anyone who used language like that in anger off the forum or made life so miserable they would have quit.

Wayne Scott
September 3rd, 2005, 12:51 AM
My daughter, Lee, is hoping the next one won't be as awful as Katrina.

Wayne

Judy G. Russell
September 3rd, 2005, 09:40 AM
Lord help us all if it is...

ndebord
September 3rd, 2005, 12:14 PM
Dick,

LSB> I don't know whether this is one more manifestation of global warming or not, but my hunch is that it global warming is at least part of the picture.

DK> And, of course, global warming has been allowed to run unchecked because of the United States' failure to join the Kyoto Treaty. Said failure, as everyone knows, is a direct result of the Administration's efforts to block any and all environmental protection measures which might interfere with the profits of the multinational corporations who are the real power behind this Administration. Thus, it is clear to anyone who has seen "The Day After Tomorrow" that the evil Republicans and their wicked neo-con hirelings are responsible for Hurricane Katrina and any havoc it may wreak in New Orleans! (I knew you could do it if you tried....)

Whoa now. Slow down with the, ah, overheated hyperbole. You're beginning to sound like one of those screeds you dislike so much.

Dick K
September 3rd, 2005, 02:13 PM
Whoa now. Slow down with the, ah, overheated hyperbole. You're beginning to sound like one of those screeds you dislike so much.Nick -

I'm trying for a dictionary citation under "irony" ;)

rlohmann
September 3rd, 2005, 03:20 PM
Interesting train of thought this guy Gelbspan peddles: It's gonna be real cold in Boston this winter because of global warning.

rlohmann
September 3rd, 2005, 03:22 PM
ROFL!

Dick K
September 3rd, 2005, 04:08 PM
Interesting train of thought this guy Gelbspan peddles: It's gonna be real cold in Boston this winter because of global warning [sic].Ralph -

I had a hunch that Gelbspan was a few aces short of a full deck when he started screeching about the two feet of snow that fell in Los Angeles....

ndebord
September 3rd, 2005, 08:22 PM
Nick -

I'm trying for a dictionary citation under "irony" ;)

Ah, in that case, let my ham-hand slick back under the covers.

<weak grin>

Lindsey
September 3rd, 2005, 11:04 PM
In the Tapcis days, you would have kicked anyone who used language like that in anger off the forum or made life so miserable they would have quit.
The TAPCIS days are over and I'm tired of being bullied. I had to keep my mouth shut for a long time, but don't feel constrained to do that any more. I am happy to engage in polite and respectful debate with those who will be polite and respectful in return. But I don't intend to put up with belittlement and ridicule.

--Lindsey

Jeff
September 4th, 2005, 01:53 PM
The TAPCIS days are over and I'm tired of being bullied. I had to keep my mouth shut for a long time, but don't feel constrained to do that any more. I am happy to engage in polite and respectful debate with those who will be polite and respectful in return. But I don't intend to put up with belittlement and ridicule.

--Lindsey

Yup, I watched that for years and winced many times. You go girl! And this time I figure to have great fun watching..<g>

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 4th, 2005, 02:29 PM
There are certain advantages to not having to answer to any Compuserve brass, aren't there?

Lindsey
September 4th, 2005, 11:21 PM
There are certain advantages to not having to answer to any Compuserve brass, aren't there?
I suppose. I don't like having to shout at people. But I like even less the constant badgering. I'm tired of it, and I want it to stop.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 5th, 2005, 12:05 AM
That may be a bit like wanting rain to stop...

Lindsey
September 5th, 2005, 12:37 AM
That may be a bit like wanting rain to stop...
I accept that the rain has no control over itself.

--Lindsey