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View Full Version : Katrina is NO lady!


Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 12:10 PM
She's big and she's mean and she is gonna whack the @#$%# outta some folks RSN. Hope everyone here is out of her path or gets out of her path. Stay safe, people...

Bill Hirst
August 28th, 2005, 03:37 PM
She's big and she's mean and she is gonna whack the @#$%# outta some folks RSN. Hope everyone here is out of her path or gets out of her path. Stay safe, people...
It doesn't matter much what exact path it takes now. Hurricane force winds cover an area 190 miles across. Those closest to the eye will get the 175 mph sustained wind with higher gusts. That's enough to blow a mobile home halfway to Memphis. They're also predicting 20-25 foot storm surge plus battering waves, and there's not a lot of terrain that high along the Gulf coast.

Dick K
August 28th, 2005, 04:29 PM
They're also predicting 20-25 foot storm surge plus battering waves, and there's not a lot of terrain that high along the Gulf coast.And New Orleans has an average elevation of 10 feet below sea level! This is going to be a bad one....

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 05:15 PM
High? High? "High" and "Gulf Coast" can't be used in the same sentence!

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 05:19 PM
The "Big Easy" ain't gonna be so easy after this one. One of the problems is that the pumps that might be used to pump water out of the city... will be under water. They're saying it could take literally four to six months to clean up N'awlins if it comes anywhere close to a direct hit.

And... sigh... one third of the nation's oil production is being shut down.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 28th, 2005, 05:44 PM
one third of the nation's oil production is being shut down.
Follower by renewed hostilities in.............

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 05:58 PM
The "Big Easy" ain't gonna be so easy after this one. One of the problems is that the pumps that might be used to pump water out of the city... will be under water. They're saying it could take literally four to six months to clean up N'awlins if it comes anywhere close to a direct hit.
You must have seen the same program that I saw the other day. (I can't remember if it was CNN or the Thursday news magazine program on ABC.) And the same NO official was also predicting that the deaths in the New Orleans area alone could be in the tens of thousands. That's just hard to imagine.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Followe<d> by renewed hostilities in.............
Ouuuuuuuch.

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 06:11 PM
I read it on one of the websites today -- NYT or Washington Post, most likely. Gotta admit, the online photographs -- particularly the NOAA photos -- have been stunning.

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 07:50 PM
I read it on one of the websites today -- NYT or Washington Post, most likely. Gotta admit, the online photographs -- particularly the NOAA photos -- have been stunning.
Interesting--whatever program this was, they were interviewing a public official in NO who had responsibility for public safety, or emergency response, or something on that order. And he made the very same point, that the pumps they would need to pump the water out would be underwater, and that it would take 120 days just to rebuild them. The city of New Orleans, he said, would become Lake New Orleans.

The reporter said that when tourists in the French Quarter saw the news cameras filming for the report, many of them went up to the crew to ask, "Is it true? Do we really have to evacuate? We don't want to have to cut our vacation short." Geez--even if the city weren't likely to end up under 15 feet of water, what did they figure the rest of their vacation would be like without electricity or running water?

--Lindsey

Mike Landi
August 28th, 2005, 08:09 PM
This looks like one bad-a*s storm. It is still supposed to be tropical depression strength by the time it gets to Canada.

Mean, mean storm.

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 09:23 PM
The city of New Orleans, he said, would become Lake New Orleans.
Check out this article (http://www.nola.com/washingaway/thebigone_1.html) in the NOLA Times-Picayune. And the piece I remember was on cnn.com. It's the video "Worst case scenario" linked from the various articles on Katrina.

The reporter said that when tourists in the French Quarter saw the news cameras filming for the report, many of them went up to the crew to ask, "Is it true? Do we really have to evacuate? We don't want to have to cut our vacation short." Geez--even if the city weren't likely to end up under 15 feet of water, what did they figure the rest of their vacation would be like without electricity or running water?
And, as the article points out: a direct hit by a major hurricane would "turn the city and the east bank of Jefferson Parish into a lake as much as 30 feet deep, fouled with chemicals and waste from ruined septic systems, businesses and homes."

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 09:27 PM
This looks like one bad-a*s storm. It is still supposed to be tropical depression strength by the time it gets to Canada. Mean, mean storm.
Good heavens... that's terrifying...

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 10:38 PM
Check out this article (http://www.nola.com/washingaway/thebigone_1.html) in the NOLA Times-Picayune.
Wow. "The worst case is a hurricane moving in from due south of the city." And that's pretty close to what is happening right now. (CNN is reporting that the banner headline in tomorrow's Times-Picayune is "GROUND ZERO". No kidding.)

And the piece I remember was on cnn.com. It's the video "Worst case scenario" linked from the various articles on Katrina.
I think that is probably what I am remembering from Thursday or Friday night. Very sobering scenario.

Also sobering is this from that article you linked to:

Ninety percent of the structures in the city are likely to be destroyed by the combination of water and wind accompanying a Category 5 storm, said Robert Eichorn, former director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness. The LSU Hurricane Center surveyed numerous large public buildings in Jefferson Parish in hopes of identifying those that might withstand such catastrophic winds. They found none.

That doesn't bode well for the tourists stuck in New Orleans (because of cancelled flights and the unavailability of rental cars) planning to ride it out on the higher floors of downtown hotels. And, of course, even if the building they're in manages to make it through the storm, the aftermath is going to be possibly even worse.

--Lindsey

Wayne Scott
August 28th, 2005, 11:02 PM
For my own selfish reasons, I hope that Galatoire's survives, and I'll throw in Antoine's tho I only eat there when Galatoire's is closed, on Monday.

Those were the days, my friends. We thought they'd never end.

Wayne Scott
August 28th, 2005, 11:05 PM
Remember, New Orleans is 40 feet below the BOTTOM of the Mississippi River and about 10 feet below sea-level. Lake Ponchetrain in not a lake, it's an ocean inlet, so on the side opposite the river, there is ocean. This could be simply awful.

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Wow. "The worst case is a hurricane moving in from due south of the city." And that's pretty close to what is happening right now. (CNN is reporting that the banner headline in tomorrow's Times-Picayune is "GROUND ZERO". No kidding.)
Others are calling it SUB-zero... since so much of the city is below sea level.

Lordy... I have cousins in N'awlins... I sure hope they got out...

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 11:25 PM
This could be simply awful.
Indeed. And then some.

Judy G. Russell
August 28th, 2005, 11:26 PM
For my own selfish reasons, I hope that Galatoire's survives, and I'll throw in Antoine's tho I only eat there when Galatoire's is closed, on Monday. Those were the days, my friends. We thought they'd never end.
I have some very fond memories of a little elegant hotel in the French Quarter. There is no way in hell it's going to make it it half of what they're talking about occurs.

Lindsey
August 28th, 2005, 11:40 PM
For my own selfish reasons, I hope that Galatoire's survives, and I'll throw in Antoine's tho I only eat there when Galatoire's is closed, on Monday.

Those were the days, my friends. We thought they'd never end.
I am very grateful that I had the chance to travel to New Orleans BK (Before Katrina), and that I played hookey on a day of meetings that were of little interest to me and instead made a self-directed walking tour through the Garden District and spent some time exploring the French Quarter.

I didn't make it to either Galatoire's or Antoine's--I mostly tried to stay away from the places that drew large crowds of tourists, even though the crowds were probably relatively light, since this was just a few weeks after 9/11, and people weren't doing much travelling. I did, however, have a lovely jazz brunch at the Court of Two Sisters, and an absolutely fantastic gourmet dinner at a place called Peristyle, near the Louis Armstrong Park.

I can't bear to think that the place I enjoyed so much for the few days I was there might be almost entirely wiped out.

--Lindsey

RayB (France)
August 29th, 2005, 03:29 AM
Remember, New Orleans is 40 feet below the BOTTOM of the Mississippi River and about 10 feet below sea-level. Lake Ponchetrain in not a lake, it's an ocean inlet, so on the side opposite the river, there is ocean. This could be simply awful.

Our best friends in Denver are scheduled to be there next week. They are not packing.

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:14 AM
Our best friends in Denver are scheduled to be there next week. They are not packing.
Fingers and toes crossed that the city will dodge the worst of it with that little jig to the east that Katrina took just before dawn. Though what it is getting is bad enough.

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:15 AM
I can't bear to think that the place I enjoyed so much for the few days I was there might be almost entirely wiped out.
Sigh... forgive me if I say that's exactly the way I feel about Windows on the World (the restaurant at the top of the World Trade Center)...

Lindsey
August 29th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Sigh... forgive me if I say that's exactly the way I feel about Windows on the World (the restaurant at the top of the World Trade Center)...
Yeah.

The good news is that the last news report I heard, the French Quarter was still there, though they said there was hardly a building that didn't sustain damage of some kind--windows blown out, roofs damaged. Of course, it will be some time before the full extent of the damage caused by the water, but it appears that for the most part, New Orleans dodged another bullet.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 29th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Apparently only one levee was breached, hitting the east part of town, and the rest was flooded but not nearly as badly as feared.

And <knock on wood and offer up thanks> only a handful of deaths (at least so far as they know now).

[Correction: On the radio on the way home tonight they said FIVE deaths. The wire services tonight are saying FIFTY-five, and that's likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. :( :( :( ]

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 08:47 PM
[Correction: On the radio on the way home tonight they said FIVE deaths. The wire services tonight are saying FIFTY-five, and that's likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. :( :( :( ]
It's going to be a while before we know the full extent of the damage. The hardest-hit areas are going to be hard to get to, and I heard some inklings today that the Louisiana National Guard may be hampered not just by a reduced manpower from personnel that are currently stationed in Iraq, but by equipment (helicopters, high-water SUVs, etc.) that is there and not here.

The turn in the storm that took Katrina a bit further east before it made landfall was good for New Orleans, but bad news for people in Mississippi, who were not as fully prepared to be hit head-on.

My father was telling me something tonight about an offshore casino that was lifted out of the water and smashed down on a motel on shore. I can only hope that there was nobody inside either facility.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 30th, 2005, 08:50 PM
My father was telling me something tonight about an offshore casino that was lifted out of the water and smashed down on a motel on shore. I can only hope that there was nobody inside either facility.
I saw the picture of that. Amazing. The photos are just staggering -- and now that the levees are breached in NOLA, the damage there is almost as bad as feared. They're even talking about evacuating those from the shelters there.

Gads. What a nightmare for everyone.

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 09:14 PM
They're even talking about evacuating those from the shelters .
I knew they were talking about evacuating those who were in the Superdome. I'm not surprised; that can't be a very good place to stay, especially since they weren't allowed down on the field just in case there was flooding that high. Can you imagine trying to sleep in bleacher seats? I don't wonder that those folks are starting to get restive. There's no electricity, so it's hot and muggy; the toilets are clogged, so the bathrooms are truly foul; they're all sleep-deprived; and they're not allowed to leave -- who wouldn't be snarling at everyone in sight? But at least they're all still alive to be uncomfortable, and there is something in that.

There was something I saw yesterday in a diary-type entry on the Times-Picayune site...let me see if I can find it again. Yeah, here it is:

Red beans & rice . . . it must be Monday

Don't fear, New Orleans evacuees . . . all is not lost. Just finished lunch from Chez Picayune [[I]the Times-Picayune company cafeteria] . . . huddled on the second-floor landing watching the trees whip outside the big atrium window.

Red beans and rice. Comfort food in the middle of the hurricane. How you gonna get more sassy Yat than that?

Flood waters continue to rise across town . . . reports pouring in on the scanner, and large trees branches are snapped off, blocking the stretch of Howard Street in front of the newspaper.

Red beans and rice . . . it's Monday, and at least something's right with the world.

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/nola/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_nolaview/archives/2005_08.html#074853

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 09:21 PM
The wire services tonight are saying FIFTY-five, and that's likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. :( :( :(
NBC just flashed a blurb across the bottom of the screen: the official death toll is now up to 100.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 30th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Oh man... I've been watching too many videos and reading too many articles... and I wish I wish I wish my cousins from Metairie would pop a note out via email to let us know they got out okay...

Judy G. Russell
August 30th, 2005, 10:45 PM
From everything I'm reading, it's going to go a LOT higher than that. When the waters recede and they can see where folks got trapped...

Lindsey
August 30th, 2005, 11:06 PM
and I wish I wish I wish my cousins from Metairie would pop a note out via email to let us know they got out okay...
Depending on where they are, they may find it difficult to do that. Metairie--I know from pictures that were on the Times-Picayune site there was flooding there, but I also see a post there that says that Old Metairie, at least, was relatively dry:

[Jefferson Parish Chief Administrative Assistant Tim] Whitmer said he had been told by Sheriff's Office officials that Old Metairie was fairly dry and that by late afternoon, Levee District officials reported water levels dropping on Airline Drive in Kenner.

Posted Monday, 10:20 p.m.
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#074980
Pictures from the area are at http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/ . There are some from Metairie under the August 29 "Citizen journalist photos" link. Probably other of those links, too, but I know there are some under that one. (And it's probably a good sign that there were non-journalists able to get out and take pictures in that area.)

--Lindsey

ndebord
August 30th, 2005, 11:26 PM
Oh man... I've been watching too many videos and reading too many articles... and I wish I wish I wish my cousins from Metairie would pop a note out via email to let us know they got out okay...

Judy,

The blogs seem to have gotten it right before the big media. The levees, mainly earthern berms, have failed on the 2nd day and now the 3rd night. Flooding has increased, not decreased. Some reports say 80% of the Big Easy is under water now. Don't know what to believe, except to say I read on a Dutch blog that they were horrified at our primitive levees.

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 02:49 AM
There was something I saw yesterday in a diary-type entry on the Times-Picayune site...let me see if I can find it again. Yeah, here it is:As just about anyone who is from (or who has lived in) Louisiana knows, red beans and rice is the ultimate coonass comfort food--cheap, nutritious, filling, and delicious--and it is the traditional evening meal on Monday evenings. Why Monday? Well, the story I heard is that in Louisiana, as elsewhere, Monday is washday, and both the womenfolk and the stove were too occupied with the laundry for any fancy cooking, so a pot of red beans and rice would simmer for most of the day....

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 11:29 AM
Pictures from the area are at http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/ .
Spectacular site for photos. Breaks your heart...

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 11:30 AM
It is just mind boggling. The damage is stunning. And though the focus is on New Orleans (a city many Americans know fairly well), the damage in Mississippi is worse.

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 11:32 AM
Recipes:

here (http://www.gumbopages.com/food/red-beans.html)

and

here (http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,red_beans_rice,FF.html)

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 01:37 PM
Recipes:

here (http://www.gumbopages.com/food/red-beans.html)

and

here (http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,red_beans_rice,FF.html)
Chuck Taggart's recipe (the first one) is a bit more complex than the everyday red beans and rice, but it sounds like a real winner. Taggart (a transplanted New Orleans boy who relocated in California) can be counted on for superb Cajun/Creole recipes. I can remember emailing him a fan letter for his Agnel Hair Pasta with Tasso Ham (to be found somewhere on his GumboPages site) several years ago and getting a very warm and gracious reply from him.

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 03:13 PM
It may be more complex but oh BOY does it sound good... I think I need a snack or I'm gonna short out the keyboard by drooling on it...

Lindsey
August 31st, 2005, 05:36 PM
It is just mind boggling. The damage is stunning. And though the focus is on New Orleans (a city many Americans know fairly well), the damage in Mississippi is worse.
Yes; Mississippi got hit head on. This is going to be staggering by the time it is all added up.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 05:47 PM
One of the Louisiana officials today -- I think it may have been the NO Mayor -- said the death toll could reach into the thousands.

Bill Hirst
August 31st, 2005, 06:00 PM
Yes; Mississippi got hit head on. This is going to be staggering by the time it is all added up.

--Lindsey
It's likely to take weeks or even months to determine the full extent of the damage. They're speaking of a million left homeless today.
If there is any good at all to come from this disaster, let's get our building codes raised to require 150 mph wind resistance everywhere along the coast from North Carolina to Texas. I am tired of seeing flying roofs on the evening news when we have the ability to make them stronger.

woodswell
August 31st, 2005, 09:25 PM
Bush gives new reason for Iraq war (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/08/31/bush_gives_new_reason_for_iraq_war/)
Says US must prevent oil fields from falling into hands of terrorists

By Jennifer Loven, Associated Press | August 31, 2005

CORONADO, Calif. -- President Bush answered growing antiwar protests yesterday with a fresh reason for US troops to continue fighting in Iraq: protection of the country's vast oil fields, which he said would otherwise fall under the control of terrorist extremists.
You know, I can almost believe this reason.... :rolleyes:
Anne

Dick K
August 31st, 2005, 10:05 PM
What is even worse is that he is sending thousands of regular US troops and National Guard members into the Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama disaster area with NO announced timetable for their withdrawal, NO coherent exit strategy, and NO prior approval from our allies or the UN!

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 10:07 PM
As of today, with gas prices in the NY metro area at $2.99 a gallon for regular, I wish we had a few more oil fields...

Judy G. Russell
August 31st, 2005, 10:08 PM
One thing we're going to have to consider is whether, and to what extent, we permit building in areas that are prone to natural disasters.

Lindsey
August 31st, 2005, 10:57 PM
One thing we're going to have to consider is whether, and to what extent, we permit building in areas that are prone to natural disasters.
If I remember rightly, it was Bill Clinton who initiated the policy of not offering flood insurance when people build in certain flood-prone areas, shortly after massive flooding along the Mississippi. That doesn't absolutely forbid people from building in those areas, but without federal flood insurance (because they're not going to get private insurance), they're on notice that they'll be on their own if they get flooded out. And that tends to discourage building.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 1st, 2005, 12:22 AM
We really do have to stop and think about the societal cost of rebuilding, and rebuilding, and rebuilding again, in areas where it just plain flat out ain't safe to live. Right on the coast in flood (or hurricane) zones. On top of fault lines. Below sea level...

ndebord
September 1st, 2005, 09:41 AM
It's likely to take weeks or even months to determine the full extent of the damage. They're speaking of a million left homeless today.
If there is any good at all to come from this disaster, let's get our building codes raised to require 150 mph wind resistance everywhere along the coast from North Carolina to Texas. I am tired of seeing flying roofs on the evening news when we have the ability to make them stronger.

Bill,

Back when Homestead was almost totally flattened, an enterprising young reprorter flying overhead saw one little development that was still standing in the midst of a sea of desolation. He want back by car and intereviewed the developer who said that he and his family had been builders for 3 generations and had "standards." The reporter was bright enough to have the camera pull back and do a panaromic shot of the surrounding neighborhood. This little patch of houses in good shape surrounded by fallen timber and sheetrock.

Sad.

Judy G. Russell
September 1st, 2005, 09:56 AM
I don't know that even the best of construction standards would have helped against this storm, though: you're talking the combination of wind plus storm surge plus location (right on the beach).

Mike
September 1st, 2005, 04:42 PM
And the same NO official was also predicting that the deaths in the New Orleans area alone could be in the tens of thousands. That's just hard to imagine.
"No One Can Say they Didn't See it Coming"

By Sidney Blumenthal

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372455,00.html

Judy G. Russell
September 1st, 2005, 05:49 PM
What I don't understand, truly do not understand, is why the military response to this situation has been so little, so late. Have we really stripped our domestic forces down so low that we can't respond to a disaster of this magnitude at home?

Bill Hirst
September 1st, 2005, 06:35 PM
What I don't understand, truly do not understand, is why the military response to this situation has been so little, so late. Have we really stripped our domestic forces down so low that we can't respond to a disaster of this magnitude at home?
Maybe George W. Bush's intelligence briefing didn't include the possibility of the levees breaking. Hell, even the French could have predicted it. Category 3 levee, category 5 storm. It's a clear case of the CIA not trusting CNN, the FBI, The Weather Channel, the NSA, the UN, Interpol, the Skulls, the Bilderbergs ... or anything else they didn't spin into their own interpretation of the world.

Wayne Scott
September 1st, 2005, 06:41 PM
Ah, but to make them stronger would cut into the profits of developers.
I sound like a Democrat, don't I?

Republican in Rome

Judy G. Russell
September 1st, 2005, 07:40 PM
Somebody's head really should roll on this one. The local emergency management folks say FEMA doesn't even have a command center for purposes of communications yet. That's absurd.

Judy G. Russell
September 1st, 2005, 07:40 PM
Ah, but to make them stronger would cut into the profits of developers.
I sound like a Democrat, don't I?
Yup. As a matter of fact, you do. Scary, isn't it?

Bill Hirst
September 1st, 2005, 10:16 PM
Ah, but to make them stronger would cut into the profits of developers.
I sound like a Democrat, don't I?

Republican in Rome
You sound like a curmudgeon. <g>

It's cheaper to build them strong the first time, than rebuild everything after every big storm. OTOH, I expect flood insurance prices to go through the stratosphere in areas as vulnerable as New Orleans.

Lindsey
September 1st, 2005, 11:51 PM
We really do have to stop and think about the societal cost of rebuilding, and rebuilding, and rebuilding again, in areas where it just plain flat out ain't safe to live.
Of course, there's a reason New Orleans is where it is (see my link to the Slate article in another thread), and there's going to be a city of some sort there no matter what, but certainly we need to take likely disasters into account when doing the planning for those cities. The lull in hurricane activity over the last 20-30 years has encouraged far more development along the coasts than is really safe over the long haul. Also, there's a tension between the levees on the Mississippi (which protect New Orleans from flooding and keep the river from changing course) and the wetlands of the delta, which protect it from storm surges. The higher the levees are built, the less buildup of delta you allow, and the more vulnerable you leave the coastline to storm surges.

Something I heard in the last couple of days said that at one time there was more than 100 miles of wetlands between the coast and the city of New Orleans, every mile of which (or is it two miles?) absorbs a half a foot of surge. Now that wetland buffer has been reduced to about 30 miles.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
September 1st, 2005, 11:59 PM
"No One Can Say they Didn't See it Coming"
Nobody except Bush, apparently. :mad:

The chickens may be coming home to roost, though. Tonight Joe Scarborough was inviting criticism of the Administration's handling of this whole thing. And he mentioned that his supporters in Louisiana and Mississippi were expressing extreme disappointment with the guy they voted for because he hasn't done a better job of coming to their aid.

--Lindsey

RayB (France)
September 2nd, 2005, 02:27 AM
As of today, with gas prices in the NY metro area at $2.99 a gallon for regular, I wish we had a few more oil fields...

I wish we had your prices.

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 09:32 AM
You live in a country with no real oil resources of its own. You're paying a premium for your choice of where to live. We here in the US have had it good in terms of resources, but we are about to pay the piper big time.

And I shudder to think of this upcoming long cold winter when I fully expect senior citizens and the poor in the Northeast and upper Midwest die from the cold because of heating oil prices they can't afford...

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 09:38 AM
And get this one... oh my God... get this one:

"Federal Emergency Management Director Michael Brown told CNN that federal officials were unaware of the crowds at the convention center until Thursday, despite the fact that city officials had been telling people for days to gather there."

Is he out of his mind???? Where have "federal officials" been if they didn't know about those people until Thursday?

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 09:40 AM
Something I heard in the last couple of days said that at one time there was more than 100 miles of wetlands between the coast and the city of New Orleans, every mile of which (or is it two miles?) absorbs a half a foot of surge. Now that wetland buffer has been reduced to about 30 miles.
National Geographic has been writing about that for years and one of its articles from 2001 is widely quoted on this issue these days.

ndebord
September 2nd, 2005, 10:09 AM
And get this one... oh my God... get this one:

"Federal Emergency Management Director Michael Brown told CNN that federal officials were unaware of the crowds at the convention center until Thursday, despite the fact that city officials had been telling people for days to gather there."

Is he out of his mind???? Where have "federal officials" been if they didn't know about those people until Thursday?

Judy,

Browns supposedly said he was too busy to watch TV for the last 3 days, so that is why he didn't known that thousands were at the Convention Center sans water, food, sanitation or security. Meanwhile at Charity Hospital, there are down to Graham Crackers to feed some 200 plus patients.

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 11:37 AM
I am just appalled. Appalled. When hospitals have to call press conferences to get food and water. When hospitals have to hire their own private helicopters to evacuate patients. When people die in squalor and heat because we can't find buses to take them out of a dying city. I am just appalled.

Bill Hirst
September 2nd, 2005, 05:23 PM
I am just appalled. Appalled. When hospitals have to call press conferences to get food and water. When hospitals have to hire their own private helicopters to evacuate patients. When people die in squalor and heat because we can't find buses to take them out of a dying city. I am just appalled.
Me too. There has to be an accounting for those responsible. With all the helicopters in this country, there is simply no excuse for failing to deliver food and water. Yes, some news agencies and CEOs might be inconvenienced by loaning their whirlybirds, but the country needs anything that can help right now.

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 05:30 PM
I wish we had your prices.
I wish we had your trains.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 05:44 PM
Is he out of his mind???? Where have "federal officials" been if they didn't know about those people until Thursday?
Apparently he tried to tell Ted Koppel (Wednesday night, I guess) that the stories about people in the convention center were just myth. Koppel's eyes nearly bugged out. "Doesn't anyone at FEMA watch television?" he asked.

Brown also said that nobody anticipated that there might be looting.

Clueless. Absolutely clueless.

I was reading some recent posts on Andrew Sullivan's blog just a little while ago. (Andrew Sullivan, for those unfamiliar with him, is a conservative columnist--one I have come to have a good deal of respect for.) This afternoon he posted an e-mail (http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2005_08_28_dish_archive.html#112569138469257629) from one of his readers who is a Las Vegas policeman, a disaster recovery specialist. Very powerful statement.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 06:01 PM
When people die in squalor and heat because we can't find buses to take them out of a dying city. I am just appalled.
I saw this on Salon.com today, and it made me wonder if this is the sort of thing that encouraged some people to fire guns at policemen. Not that I endorse that, but this struck me as a bit obscene:


While chatting with some of the National Guardsmen [along Convention Center Avenue on Wednesday, where people were lining up in response to rumors--untrue--that evacuations were about to begin from there], another guardsman approaches and informs us that a woman is in the middle of a stroke around the corner. The guardsmen shrug. There is no emergency medical tent in the downtown area, and many people in need of medicine have no way of getting what they need, even inside the shelters. On our way into the French Quarter, a wild-eyed man flags down our car, begging us for insulin or information about where some can be found. We cannot help him.

In contrast, some residents of the French Quarter appear comfortable, well-fed and relaxed. About 150 New Orleans police officers have commandeered the Royal Omni Hotel, part of the international luxury chain of Omni hotels that is housed in an elegant 19th century building, complete with crystal chandeliers and a rooftop pool. "All of the officers that are here, I can tell you in a classical sense, are gladiators," says Capt. Kevin Anderson, commander of the Eighth District of the NOPD (French Quarter). "To be able to put your family's concerns aside to protect the citizens of New Orleans, it's just an awesome job," he says.

Across the street from the Royal Omni at the Eighth District police department, several police officers keep a wary eye on the street with shotguns at the ready, while some fellow officers grill sausage links over charcoal barbecues. They are under strict orders not to communicate with the media. Capt. Anderson does confirm, however, that locations where officers were housed came under gunfire on Tuesday night. No officers were injured. "It is a very dangerous situation that we're in," Anderson says.

. . .

We walk half a block down Royal Street from the Eighth District headquarters and come upon Brennan's Restaurant, one of New Orleans' most venerable dining institutions. The Brennans are a high-profile family of restaurateurs and run several of the highest-end eateries in town. Jimmy Brennan and a crew of his relatives are holing up in the restaurant along with the chef, Lazone Randolph. They are sleeping on air mattresses, drinking Cheval Blanc, and feasting on the restaurant's reserves of haute Creole food.

The atmosphere in the French Quarter, while relatively quiet, is decidedly tense, but Brennan isn't worried. "We're not too concerned. The police let us go over to the Royal Omni, to take a shower, freshen up, and we cooked them some prime rib. We take care of them, they take care of us," says Randolph. Two Brennan emissaries whisk past, bearing multilayer chocolate cakes, headed toward the precinct. "This has been working out real well for us," says Jimmy Brennan.

. . .

"The Quarter always survives!" declares Finnis, the owner of Alex Patout's restaurant on St. Louis Street, who declined to give his last name. Standing in front of his restaurant, he sips champagne with several friends, insisting that his restaurant's gradually warming walk-in fridges will provide them with sustenance for up to a month.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/01/neworleans/index.html
I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to eat in a fancy-dancy New Orleans restaurant again.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 07:42 PM
More cluelessness from Brown. This from an interview (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/01/sitroom.03.html) with Wolf Blitzer on CNN, my emphasis added (with thanks to Josh Marshall for highlighting this):

BLITZER: Knowing what you know now, Michael Brown -- and obviously all of us are a lot smarter with hindsight -- what would FEMA -- what should FEMA have done differently in the days leading up to Hurricane Katrina to save people's lives in New Orleans? Because as you know, we're getting reports from the governor, from the mayor, that perhaps the death toll will go into the thousands.

BROWN: Well, I think the death toll may go into the thousands. And unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the evacuation warnings. And I don't make judgments about why people choose not to evacuate.

But, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. And to find people still there is just heart wrenching to me because the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there. And so we've got to figure out some way to convince people that when evacuation warnings go out, it's for their own good. Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them.

Now I don't doubt that some of the people who stayed behind truly did choose to do that. But does he still not realize that a good many of them simply had no way to get out, or no place to go if they did?

There was a picture on the NY Times web site of a woman sobbing beside the shrouded body of her husband, who had suffered from lung cancer and died after his oxygen ran out. If they had no car, how were they supposed to evacuate the city? Was this guy supposed to walk a hundred miles pulling his oxygen tank behind him? Was his wife supposed to get out and leave him behind? What about mothers with small children? What about the many people in their 80s who are among those stranded? They didn't all stay behind just to be stubborn.

I didn't realize this before today, but cars are used even less by residents of New Orleans than by residents of New York City. And NYC at least has extensive mass transit. In NO, it's just that the city is overwhelmingly poor.

(Bill O'Reilly has his own idea about why those who stayed in New Orleans did so: he says they stayed because they knew it would give them an opportunity to loot. I don't know who is a loonier tune, O'Reilly or Pat Robertson.)

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 08:17 PM
When it is possible for a private hospital corporation to lease enough helicopters to evacuate one of its hospitals in NO, it is criminal that the government doesn't have (or doesn't obtain) enough helicopters to evacuate the rest of them...

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 08:19 PM
Dear Lord, that's beyond appalling. People starving to death -- and some police officers out in outlying precincts starving as well -- and then this???

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM
Where have these people been since September 11 four years ago? What planning has gone on? I shudder to think of al Qaeda actually pulling off any kind of a serious attack -- disease, dirty bomb, etc. It's a sure bet these people wouldn't have a clue what to do about it.

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 08:26 PM
Good grief... these people are out of their minds.

Bill Hirst
September 2nd, 2005, 08:34 PM
I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to eat in a fancy-dancy New Orleans restaurant again.

--Lindsey
I'd be tempted to shoot a few cops and chefs myself in that situation.

Bill Hirst
September 2nd, 2005, 09:07 PM
This letter from Michael Moore (the filmmaker) to GWB expresses some of my feelings. Where are the helicopters, indeed?

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2005-09-02

Dick K
September 2nd, 2005, 11:25 PM
I wish we had your trains.And their health system. Don't forget the marvelous French health system, which we have been told is so far superior to that in the United States!

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 11:34 PM
Dear Lord, that's beyond appalling.
That was certainly my take on it.

People starving to death -- and some police officers out in outlying precincts starving as well
Well--I will buy desperately hungry, but healthy adults don't starve to death in 5 days. You can go as much as a month without food, depending on your level of physical activity. (Children and the sick are another question.) But you can't go without water for more than about 72 hours, and in the heat that those people were having to live through, even that might be stretching it. And the throught of people taking showers in luxury hotels while there were people in the streets and camped out under overpasses who were dying of thirst, that's just horrible.

And I have to wonder if those walk-in refrigerators couldn't have been used to hold perishable medicines like insulin that might, with better organization, have been available for distribution to those in the shelters that needed it.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM
I shudder to think of al Qaeda actually pulling off any kind of a serious attack -- disease, dirty bomb, etc.
I imagine the leaders of al Qaeda are thinking that they don't need to pull off any kind of attack at the moment; we're doing a pretty good job of self-destructing. :(

--Lindsey

Dick K
September 2nd, 2005, 11:38 PM
I saw this on Salon.com today, and it made me wonder if this is the sort of thing that encouraged some people to fire guns at policemen. Not that I endorse that, but this struck me as a bit obsceneI quite agree. Fanning the flames of class warfare at a time like this is obscene, and Salon should (as is so often the case) be ashamed of themselves.

Lindsey
September 2nd, 2005, 11:40 PM
I'd be tempted to shoot a few cops and chefs myself in that situation.
Yeah, if your kids are crying with hunger and you see people eating prime rib and chocolate cake and swilling champagne...

Shades of Marie Antoinette.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 2nd, 2005, 11:46 PM
The people there generally weren't healthy adults, however. Even the police officers were often hurt.

Lindsey
September 3rd, 2005, 12:01 AM
The people there generally weren't healthy adults, however. Even the police officers were often hurt.
For sure there were an awful lot of people in precarious health among the refugees.

I hope things are finally turning the corner with the relief effort. I don't know how much more those people can be expected to stand. I wanted to cry when I heard about the people on buses from the Superdome who were turned away when they finally arrived at the Astrodome and officials had decided they couldn't handle 20,000 after all. To have come so far, and be so close to some small measure of comfort, only to be turned away--God, how heartbreaking.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 3rd, 2005, 12:24 AM
Fortunately, the City of Houston has been magnificent, and then some. (No, Pete, I haven't changed my mind about living there. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what the city is doing!) While people weren't accepted at the Astrodome, they did open up the Reliant Center and are accepting the overflow there. Only short term, but better than being turned away altogether. Some food, some sleep, some clean clothes and then on to something else is tolerable.

ndebord
September 3rd, 2005, 10:19 PM
yet another European report on what went wrong with levee maintenance in NO.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310195.ece

Lindsey
September 3rd, 2005, 10:45 PM
Fortunately, the City of Houston has been magnificent, and then some. . . . While people weren't accepted at the Astrodome, they did open up the Reliant Center and are accepting the overflow there.
Oh, yes, I wasn't being critical of Texas for that. The fire marshall, or the director of public safety, or someone in a similar position made the determination that they couldn't safely put any more people in the Astrodome, and especially in light of what went on in New Orleans in the overcrowded conditions of the Convention Center and the Superdome, I certainly would not fault him for wanting to avoid setting up a similar situation in their new quarters. And yes, eventually, there was somewhere else for them to go. I was just imagining what it must have been like for those people coming in on buses who were not allowed into where they were told they were being sent, and I just felt so bad for them.

Texas really has done a wonderful job of accepting very large numbers of refugees, and they deserve a lot of credit for that.

NPR had a nice story this morning about a motel in Memphis that has accepted some refugees. They interviewed one fellow who had evacuated New Orleans on Saturday, I think it was. He was quite impressive; he had for a long time had an evacuation plan of his own--he had investigated the sort of place he and his wife would need to remove to in order to find work if they had to leave New Orleans, determined that it needed to be an urban center and that Memphis was the closest one north of New Orleans. He was so amazingly organized--I thought, "He should be the guy in charge of FEMA!"

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
September 3rd, 2005, 11:10 PM
Sigh... it seems like everybody knew except the President, his DHS Secretary and the FEMA Director.

Judy G. Russell
September 3rd, 2005, 11:12 PM
I was just imagining what it must have been like for those people coming in on buses who were not allowed into where they were told they were being sent, and I just felt so bad for them.
I know... and I agree. I can't imagine having gotten out of that horror to some place I thought was safe... and then being told I had to still move on.

Texas really has done a wonderful job of accepting very large numbers of refugees, and they deserve a lot of credit for that.
That they do. Marvelous spectacular job -- heart, caring, there aren't enough words for what they've taken on.

He was so amazingly organized--I thought, "He should be the guy in charge of FEMA!"
Sigh... ain't that the truth...

Dick K
September 4th, 2005, 06:04 PM
I'd be tempted to shoot a few cops and chefs myself in that situation.Please assure me that was just intended as outrageous hyperbole.

Bill Hirst
September 5th, 2005, 08:16 AM
Please assure me that was just intended as outrageous hyperbole.
Yes, that was outrage and hyperbole mixed with the frustration these people must be feeling.

ndebord
September 5th, 2005, 10:56 AM
Sigh... it seems like everybody knew except the President, his DHS Secretary and the FEMA Director.

Judy,

Monday's Times had an editorial by Krugman which says it all: ideological aversion to government.

http://nytimes.com/2005/09/05/opinion/05krugman.html