WinXP Pro crashes with browsers

[Judy G. Russell]

I'm having a persistent issue with a WinXP Pro machine and am trying to figure out what to look at to try to trouble shoot it.

Periodically (and it's now up to about once a day), some activity in the browser (either Firefox or Google Chrome, it's now happened with both) will cause the browser to freeze. At that point, the entire system is locked. I can't even get the Start button to respond so I can't reboot. My sole option (sigh...) is to unplug the #$%@# machine, which can't be good.

I can't see any pattern to the activity that causes the freeze, and now I can't even isolate it to a single browser.

Any ideas on what to look at?

[davidh]

If the power reset button won't work after you've held it down long enough, wouldn't that point toward a hardware problem? On the other hand if the reset button is handled by BIOS then maybe some RAM dedicated to BIOS is getting hosed? I don't really know how the power reset button works.

Also you might want to leave task manager running in a window and occasionally 'alt-tab' to it to check out CPU usage and Page File usage to see if there is an upward trend over time until the crash happens.

I bought Avanquest Fix-It 10 this year. I think it has hardware diagnostics but I haven't tried them yet. (Used to be owned by Mijenix then Ontrack.) I don't think I know enough yet about Fix-It 10 yet to recommend it. One thing I don't like is that it runs a service all the time to do things maybe like anti-virus and sceduled maintenance task, which I do instead manually, and still although seeminly not doing much, it sometimes eats a lot of cpu. So I changed that service to manual instead of automatic.

[Mike Landi]

I'm having a persistent issue with a WinXP Pro machine and am trying to figure out what to look at to try to trouble shoot it.

Periodically (and it's now up to about once a day), some activity in the browser (either Firefox or Google Chrome, it's now happened with both) will cause the browser to freeze. At that point, the entire system is locked. I can't even get the Start button to respond so I can't reboot. My sole option (sigh...) is to unplug the #$%@# machine, which can't be good.

I can't see any pattern to the activity that causes the freeze, and now I can't even isolate it to a single browser.

Any ideas on what to look at?

Any chance that the air flow through the machine is blocked? I've seen this before, but not isolated to a browser or two. Dust blocks the air slots letting air into the machine, the machine overheats and freezes. The other thing I've seen is dust gets into the machine and begins to accumulate on the boards inside. Eventually, the dust can cause electrical problems (static) on the motherboard.

My fix has been opening the machine, usually on the back porch, and using a lot of compressed air to clean out the dust bunnies.

[Jeff]

I'm having a persistent issue with a WinXP Pro machine and am trying to figure out what to look at to try to trouble shoot it.

Periodically (and it's now up to about once a day), some activity in the browser (either Firefox or Google Chrome, it's now happened with both) will cause the browser to freeze. At that point, the entire system is locked. I can't even get the Start button to respond so I can't reboot. My sole option (sigh...) is to unplug the #$%@# machine, which can't be good.

I can't see any pattern to the activity that causes the freeze, and now I can't even isolate it to a single browser.

Any ideas on what to look at?

Across the last month or six weeks, starting at about a monthly XP update, IE 7 has occasionally slowed to a crawl, or just stopped. Most times I could close and reopen it, thus to fix. Sometimes I've had to CAD it and reopen. But such has not taken out the whole machine like that. It sounds like a hardware problem. Does your BIOS have a machine temperature readout?

- Jeff

[ndebord]

I'm having a persistent issue with a WinXP Pro machine and am trying to figure out what to look at to try to trouble shoot it.

Periodically (and it's now up to about once a day), some activity in the browser (either Firefox or Google Chrome, it's now happened with both) will cause the browser to freeze. At that point, the entire system is locked. I can't even get the Start button to respond so I can't reboot. My sole option (sigh...) is to unplug the #$%@# machine, which can't be good.

I can't see any pattern to the activity that causes the freeze, and now I can't even isolate it to a single browser.

Any ideas on what to look at?

Judy,

Sounds like a memory chip issue.

One way to check:

http://www.memtest.org/

P.S.

I have an USB floppy drive, so I use this MemTest Floppy version.

memtest86+-4.10.floppy.zip

[Peter Creasey]

Judy, I agree it sounds like a memory issue.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Any ideas on what to look at?
Judy, I know that you are one of the most security-minded computer users around. But just on the off chance that you have been plagued by one of the current crop of malware that messes with browsers, run a full Malwarebytes scan. It is free peace-of-mind.

[Judy G. Russell]

Any chance that the air flow through the machine is blocked?Could well be the issue with as hot as it's been, Mike. I've spent the past couple of days running it (exhaustively) through CHKDSK and other test programs like Prime95 and MemTest and don't find any other issues. I'm also going to reseat all the boards when I clean out the case.

[Judy G. Russell]

It sounds like a hardware problem. Does your BIOS have a machine temperature readout?It doesn't but I think I need one. It's been so hot here.

[Judy G. Russell]

Sounds like a memory chip issue. One way to check:
http://www.memtest.org/Tried that, came back with no issues.

[Judy G. Russell]

Judy, I know that you are one of the most security-minded computer users around. But just on the off chance that you have been plagued by one of the current crop of malware that messes with browsers, run a full Malwarebytes scan. It is free peace-of-mind.That was my FIRST thought, Dan. So I ran a full system on demand scan for both viruses and malware, then downloaded MSE, removed my existing programs, installed MSE and ran that as a double check. The system is completely clean.

[Judy G. Russell]

Judy, I agree it sounds like a memory issue.Thanks, Pete. I wish I could get it to show me some error indicator that would tell me for sure. I can't seem to replicate this when I need to, and it happens all the time when I don't want it to!

[Peter Creasey]

One thought might be overheating. If it's a desk top, you might try opening up the side(s)...and perhaps de-dusting.

[Jeff]

It doesn't but I think I need one. It's been so hot here.

The readout would be part of the machine BIOS available at IPL, and sometimes after, not what XP offers as "BIOS". Ask the shop that built your machine. Even my Comcast DVR has a temperature readout, if you know how to reach its BIOS page. It too will lock up at overheat.

- Jeff

[ndebord]

Tried that, came back with no issues.

Judy,

As everyone else says, perhaps it is the heat. This app might help.

http://www.almico.com/speedfan.php

[Dan in Saint Louis]

And Topala's SIW (http://www.gtopala.com/siw-hardware/sensors.html) monitors several sensors in real time.

[Judy G. Russell]

And Topala's SIW (http://www.gtopala.com/siw-hardware/sensors.html) monitors several sensors in real time.Got it, Dan. Now... what temps should I be seeing? (Everything seems a bit high to me.)

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Well, that depends on what your definition of "should" is. Heat is an enemy of electronics and will shorten its life.

First a warning: finding the internal temperature of AMD CPUs is hit-and-miss. Some used only a digital register (no analog sensors) and the value it stores has to be interpreted with an "offset code" that AMD does not reveal.

That said, I think the temps displayed for my CPU (AMD Athlon) are a bit low -- reported lower than the surrounding motherboard components. From what I read on other forums the mid 40s (Celsius) to upper 50s would be more typical. Above 60C causes one to seek more effective cooling. I don't remember what the rated maximum is, and it is different for different lines of CPU anyway so you should find yours from the specific ratings for your CPU.

See also 1 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/288392-28-temperature) 2 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/287700-28-temperature) 3 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/287234-28-temperature-doubled-months) 4 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/274307-28-temperatures-overheating).

Now that they are putting sensors in disk drives as well we can see how hot those little devils are running. Mid 40s is no problem. I wouldn't worry if it got to 50C, but much higher and I would try to rearrange my case for better airflow.

See also 5 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/243961-32-maximum-hard-drive-temperature) 6 (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hard-drive-upgrade,2515-8.html) 7 (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sas-hdd-hard-drive,2664-9.html) 8 (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/250628-32-monitor-internal-temperature).

Dust keeps heat sinks from radiating heat into the surrounding air. Big flat cables in the airstream are also a hindrance. Generally fans on the back of the case blow outwards and if there is one on the front it can blow in. My case has a front air filter which frequently fills with dust. I use a can of compressed air from the computer shop to blow out the dust around RAM modules, and from inside the power supply without needing to open it. With the little straw that fits the front of the air bottle nozzle you can also blow through the CPU heat sink fins.

The attached photo is from a friend's PC that I worked on last week. Examine the heat sink fins.

That ought to get you started...............

[fhaber]

You've had excellent suggestions. Do take the effort to blow out dust AND wiggle/reseat all cards/connections.

CPUs throttle down when they get hot, especially Intel ones. They rarely immolate. Graphics card do seppuku all the time. A typical temp for a loafing machine would be (in a 25C room, in degrees C, of course)

mid-40s for the CPU
35-45 for the HD(s)
55-65 for a separate graphics card. They just run hot.

There are stress tests, should you really want to promote a failure (g). Dan or I can supply you with a dozen demonic ones.

You're not running your A/C?? In central Joisey? OM.

I gather there are no failures when doing a dozen unsharp masks in succession, or watching a local video?

[Judy G. Russell]

Well, that depends on what your definition of "should" is. Heat is an enemy of electronics and will shorten its life.
Thanks, Dan. I will print this out and review it this weekend. (I say "print it out" because my home cable service went out last night and won't get fixed until Monday!)

[Judy G. Russell]

You've had excellent suggestions. Do take the effort to blow out dust AND wiggle/reseat all cards/connections.On the weekend plan.

There are stress tests, should you really want to promote a failure (g).I ran Prime95 and memtest and came up with nada. Zilch.

You're not running your A/C?? In central Joisey? OM.No, I keep it on a timer and it goes off when I'm not home. Maybe not so good an idea...

I gather there are no failures when doing a dozen unsharp masks in succession, or watching a local video?Nope. Until the one time the system crashed while running Eudora, it ONLY happened with one or the other of the browsers (Firefox and Google Chrome).

I should add, it hasn't happened since I started running the A/C 24-7, but then my cable connection at home is out until the repair guy gets there Monday so I can't really test it right now!

[ndebord]

Judy,


JR>> I should add, it hasn't happened since I started running the A/C 24-7, but then my cable connection at home is out until the repair guy gets there Monday so I can't really test it right now!

Well, it sounds to me like a heat related problem with your computer. If it is a desktop model, then you might look into a better fan or heatsink (or, as you point out, run the A/C more often. But as my little Apt (compared to my old Brownstone) 4 room railroad flat had a 229 buck bill last month, running A/C is not always fun!. Or check for that dust buildup.

[fhaber]

Let's knock on wood, and assume it's not a failing motherboard, in which case even our class of disputatiousness and prolixity wouldn't influence things a jot. You could get out your hairdryer and really accelerate the diagnosis, you know (g).

Browser,eh? Intermittent hangs are 60% USB deadlocks, on most machines. But all modern hardware can cause blind hangs. Could be the NIC, I guess. No wireless involved, I hope?

Since absolutely no one keeps a spare network card around any more, you might try spelunking in device manager and turning off features on the motherboard NIC. FYI the classic temporary poultice for bad net wiring is 10MB, half-duplex, no power-saving, no wakeup.

Or pull the net cable when next you hang. As you can see, I'm grasping at straws.

Do you use any other protocols? If you can ftp all day and never have a hang in email, forget the above.

[davidh]

This should not be related to your problem, but here goes anyway.

I have an old program in my router flash memory such that it crashes and reboots periodically when I configure it a certain way. In my case this event does NOT crash the browsers. But it does disable Internet DSL connection for a minute or two while router reinitializes. Perhaps such an event could interact with some bug in winsock, etc. in such a way that a separate bug in TCP/IP etc. could be exposed and cause PC to crash? Remote possibility at most.

If BOTH ethernet AND wireless connection are enabled simultaneously (unlikely) one could try leaving only a single connection left enabled and the other disabled. First one way, then the other way.

[Judy G. Russell]

Well, it sounds to me like a heat related problem with your computer. If it is a desktop model, then you might look into a better fan or heatsink (or, as you point out, run the A/C more often. But as my little Apt (compared to my old Brownstone) 4 room railroad flat had a 229 buck bill last month, running A/C is not always fun!. Or check for that dust buildup.I'm thinking heat for sure, Nick.

[Judy G. Russell]

If BOTH ethernet AND wireless connection are enabled simultaneously (unlikely) one could try leaving only a single connection left enabled and the other disabled. First one way, then the other way.Don't think that's likely here, David. This is cable, always on, no special software involved.

[Judy G. Russell]

Could be the NIC, I guess. No wireless involved, I hope?Wireless yes but not on the desktop. That's wired.

Do you use any other protocols? If you can ftp all day and never have a hang in email, forget the above.I do, and have never had an issue with FTP but the old Eudora 7 did hang once.

[ndebord]

I'm thinking heat for sure, Nick.

Hard Drive Health is yet another utility that checks on the health of your hard drive and temperature too.

http://www.panterasoft.com/download.html

[Judy G. Russell]

Hard Drive Health is yet another utility that checks on the health of your hard drive and temperature too. http://www.panterasoft.com/download.htmlThanks, Nick!

[ndebord]

Thanks, Nick!

Judy,

Funny about OSes.... Mary's XP HOME is partially corrupted. Windows Explorer won't work (am using FreeCommander instead there) and will hang the system if you try and do things like Copy with it. With no CD (preinstalled OS), I am debating installing XP PRO from a slipstreamed XP PRO SP3 disc I burnt the other day. Only two things holding me back. Worry about her Atom CPU not being up to XP PRO and worry about drivers and my ability to properly back them up and then restore them.

SIGH

[Judy G. Russell]

Funny about OSes.... Mary's XP HOME is partially corrupted.That at least shouldn't be an issue on this machine. It's a clean new install for cryin' out loud. Turns out the NIC and sound "cards" are built-in so all I did when I opened the case was reseat the video card and make sure all the fans were clean and operating. So far so good in this 60+ degree weather.

[ndebord]

That at least shouldn't be an issue on this machine. It's a clean new install for cryin' out loud. Turns out the NIC and sound "cards" are built-in so all I did when I opened the case was reseat the video card and make sure all the fans were clean and operating. So far so good in this 60+ degree weather.

Judy,

I recall, some time ago now, that one thing you can do is put a better head sink on your CPU. Not for the faint of heart, but doable. Perhaps a bigger fan too?

I remember a laptop I had that ran hot... I took a baking sheet and put it underneath... one truly big heatsink and the temp. took a nosedive!

[Judy G. Russell]

I recall, some time ago now, that one thing you can do is put a better head sink on your CPU. Not for the faint of heart, but doable. Perhaps a bigger fan too? I remember a laptop I had that ran hot... I took a baking sheet and put it underneath... one truly big heatsink and the temp. took a nosedive!I'm gonna take it in, get it thoroughly checked out, and new fans / heatsinks put in.

[ndebord]

I'm gonna take it in, get it thoroughly checked out, and new fans / heatsinks put in.

Judy,

The good news is that it is the end of August and weather-related heat issues will diminish (hopefully). Depending upon the complexity of your motherboard, you can (if you wish) put on new heatsinks yourself, same with fans. Did that with a P90 desktop I had some eons ago. Last time I owned a desktop until this little model I have here for Windows Media Center.

[Jeff]

Hard Drive Health is yet another utility that checks on the health of your hard drive and temperature too.

http://www.panterasoft.com/download.html

Good stuff, Nick. Do you know of one which will look down the cable and check a USB external drive?

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

Depending upon the complexity of your motherboard, you can (if you wish) put on new heatsinks yourself, same with fans.Nah, it's easier (even if more expensive) to have the whole system thoroughly checked out and stuff installed by the shop where I buy my gear. At least then I have somebody to blame if things go wrong.

[ndebord]

Nah, it's easier (even if more expensive) to have the whole system thoroughly checked out and stuff installed by the shop where I buy my gear. At least then I have somebody to blame if things go wrong.

Judy,

Not a bad decision, particularly since the weather is 15 degrees above normal once again and is likely to be in the 90s for the next week or so.

<sob>

[Judy G. Russell]

the weather is 15 degrees above normal once again and is likely to be in the 90s for the next week or so.<sob>Sigh... but we're not seeing any evidence of climate change, now, are we?

[ndebord]

Sigh... but we're not seeing any evidence of climate change, now, are we?

Judy,

They changed the weather forecast! Only a couple more days of this and the hurricane should pass safely out to sea and bother the Canadians instead of us.

Meanwhile, it's late, I can't sleep and the humidity is driving me nuts.

[Judy G. Russell]

Only a couple more days of this and the hurricane should pass safely out to sea and bother the Canadians instead of us.
And, thank heavens, it turned out it didn't bother anybody very much!!

[ndebord]

And, thank heavens, it turned out it didn't bother anybody very much!!

Judy,

High Pressure saved our asses, as this was a Category 4 storm until it passed us out to sea. If we had Low Pressure, it would have come on shore and with warm coastal waters, it might have stayed a Category 4 instead of the Category 1 that headed on up to the Cape.

[Jeff]

I'm gonna take it in, get it thoroughly checked out, and new fans / heatsinks put in.

So, did that do it? I recently discovered that notebooks, at least, have something called 'thermal paste' lathered around the cpu, and it evaporates with age. When that's gone the cpu can cook an egg. My five year old IBM R51 was real close to that, although it never locked up.

- Jeff

[ndebord]

So, did that do it? I recently discovered that notebooks, at least, have something called 'thermal paste' lathered around the cpu, and it evaporates with age. When that's gone the cpu can cook an egg. My five year old IBM R51 was real close to that, although it never locked up.

- Jeff

Jeff,

I wonder about that with my T40 Thinkpad.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Jeff,

I wonder about that with my T40 Thinkpad.
Probably worth running Topala's SIW (http://gtopala.com) and check the CPU temperature.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

I wonder about that with my T40 Thinkpad.

In my case I could feel heat from under the front of the keyboard. I replaced the (original) battery thinking it was dying and pulling on the power supply. That helped but not much. Then I thought five years of dust in the fan and called a shop about opening and cleaning, and that's when I first heard about the 'thermal paste'. The shop report said some dust, almost no paste left. It's now running cold again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_paste

- Jeff

[fhaber]

I'd heard that some thermal paste just goes away at high altitude - vapor pressure etc., mumble, mumble. Normally the stuff just hardens and stops working that way. You're the test case, or at least a data point. I thank you.

[Jeff]

I'd heard that some thermal paste just goes away at high altitude - vapor pressure etc., mumble, mumble. Normally the stuff just hardens and stops working that way. You're the test case, or at least a data point. I thank you.

Yer welcome. The tech here said the stuff "evaporates" over time. The altitude hereabouts is only about 6k, but the usual hummiddity is ~25%.

[Judy G. Russell]

So, did that do it? The truth is, I've been so #$%@$# busy I haven't had time to take it in. I'm beginning to be a poster child for that t-shirt that reads: "God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of tasks. Right now, I am so far behind, I will never die."

[ndebord]

In my case I could feel heat from under the front of the keyboard. I replaced the (original) battery thinking it was dying and pulling on the power supply. That helped but not much. Then I thought five years of dust in the fan and called a shop about opening and cleaning, and that's when I first heard about the 'thermal paste'. The shop report said some dust, almost no paste left. It's now running cold again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_paste

- Jeff

Jeff,

Much thanks, this link will be my guide to do it yourself.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/274