[Dixonary] OT: EU clocks change today

[Judy Madnick]

<< BTW: The US changes from "daylight" to "standard" time (in
<< NY,
<< from EDT to EST) one week from today.

UGH! Well, it will be easier to awaken in the a.m. but dark too early in the evening (or, eventually, late afternoon).

Judy

[EnDash@aol.com]

You are right. UK time is UTC, and Netherlands time is UTC +1 hour --
adjusted, of course, for when any particular country is on or off Standard Time.

When we revert to Standard Time next Sunday morning, the Netherlands time
will be 6 hours later than New York; time in the UK will be 5 hours later.


In a message dated 10/25/2009 12:08:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
schultz (AT) compuserve (DOT) com writes:

Paul (or anyone else who knows the answer), I'm confused on one
point: Time changes aside, is Netherlands (wall-clock) time the
same as UK (wall-clock) time? I've always thought it's one hour
later where you are, but now I'm not sure.

[Judy Madnick]

<< Second that "UGH!" Happily, the S time period has been
<< shrinking
<< in recent years--down to just a little over four months now. It
<< should, IMO, vanish entirely.

I second that!

Judy

[Dodi Schultz]

> << BTW: The US changes from "daylight" to "standard" time (in
> << NY, << from EDT to EST) one week from today.
>
> UGH! Well, it will be easier to awaken in the a.m. but dark
> too early in the evening (or, eventually, late afternoon).
>
> Judy

Second that "UGH!" Happily, the S time period has been shrinking
in recent years--down to just a little over four months now. It
should, IMO, vanish entirely.

--Dodi

[Dodi Schultz]

Dick Weltz wrote:

> You are right. UK time is UTC, and Netherlands time is UTC +1
> hour -- adjusted, of course, for when any particular country
> is on or off Standard Time.
>
> When we revert to Standard Time next Sunday morning, the
> Netherlands time will be 6 hours later than New York; time in
> the UK will be 5 hours later.

Thanks, Dick!

--Dodi

[davidh]

> << BTW: The US changes from "daylight" to "standard" time (in
> << NY, << from EDT to EST) one week from today.
>
> UGH! Well, it will be easier to awaken in the a.m. but dark
> too early in the evening (or, eventually, late afternoon).
>
> Judy

Second that "UGH!" Happily, the S time period has been shrinking
in recent years--down to just a little over four months now. It
should, IMO, vanish entirely.

--DodiYou city folks are ignorant.
When I worked on the farm, daylight saving time was NOT GOOD. It's too dewy and wet in the morning. Good moisture conditions for spreading fungal diseases on plants. :-(

[Paul Keating]

> << Happily, the S time period has been shrinking in recent
years--down to just
> << a little over four months now. It should, IMO, vanish
entirely.
>
> I second that!

You're not the only ones. But in this part of the world they point to the
experiment, prompted by the energy crisis, that the UK conducted in th '60s.
In spring 1968 they set their clocks forward, and only set them back again
in autumn 1971.

From one point of view it was a success. The Royal Society for the
Prevention of Accidents calculated that about 2,500 fewer people were killed
or seriously injured in the first two winters, though there were more
morning casualties. (Reanalysis in line with conditions today confirms the
benefit, but reckons it would be reduced by 80%. Because, for example, fewer
children walk to school today and wear reflective stripes when they do,
streets are better lit, speed limits are lower, etc.)

But it was abandoned. People in Scotland and Northern Ireland hated it
because in midwinter the sun only rose around 10h00. To make concrete how
awful this was:
-- Children were expected to be at school before 09h30 (and still are).
-- Milk was delivered around 08h00 (but milk deliveries are now mostly a
thing of the past; even in London, my dairy discontinued deliveries around
2003).

Today that particular experiment could not happen, because the UK is now in
the EU, and member states may not (I think) opt out of summer time
arrangements, the way Arizona does.

If EU countries want to change timezone, they have to do it all year round:
one hour of DST in winter and two in summer. Portugal tried this in 1992,
but changed back in 1996, citing the same issues, such as children having to
go to school before sunrise.

In the UK in 2004, Nigel Beard introduced in the Commons the
attractively-named Lighter Evenings Bill. (Only a curmudgeon would point out
that it might just as well have been called the Darker Mornings Bill.) This
bill aimed to conduct the same experiment as the Portuguese did; but this
time allowing Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to opt out, since in
1968, the loudest objections came from the far west and far north of the UK.
(In the '60s such an opt-out could not have happened.) This bill got
nowhere. The following year Baron Tanlaw proposed a virtually identical bill
in the Lords, with the same result.

These were both private members' bills, which need at least tacit government
support to get a chance of being passed. I don't know if there is a US
equivalent, or, if there is, what it might be called; or even if looking for
an equivalent makes sense.

This phenomenon of fiddling with the clock is by no means unique to the UK.
Parliamentarians do it the world over, most visibly and recently in the US,
in 2005. Such changes are always controversial, and the proffered benefits
are always subject to challenge. That being so, you would think that
legislators would leave the issue safely in the hands of civil servants. But
they don't. The only plausible explanation for this perpetual legislative
dabbling, I think, is a Canute-like impulse to pass laws telling the sun
when to rise.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

[Paul Keating]

You're entirely right about that. According to my computer, when I lived in
England, my timezone in winter was "GMT Standard Time" and in summer "GMT
Daylight Time". Which exist only between the ears of some bright but
woefully ignorant teenager in Redmond.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dodi Schultz" <schultz (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>
To: <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>


> Well, people feel so helpless, what with Microsoft running
> everything else...

[Dodi Schultz]

Paul Keating wrote:

[. . . ]

> This phenomenon of fiddling with the clock is by no means
> unique to the UK. Parliamentarians do it the world over, most
> visibly and recently in the US, in 2005. Such changes are
> always controversial, and the proffered benefits are always
> subject to challenge. That being so, you would think that
> legislators would leave the issue safely in the hands of civil
> servants. But they don't. The only plausible explanation for
> this perpetual legislative dabbling, I think, is a Canute-like
> impulse to pass laws telling the sun when to rise.

Well, people feel so helpless, what with Microsoft running
everything else...

--Dodi

[Dodi Schultz]

Paul Keating wrote:
> You're entirely right about that. According to my computer,
> when I lived in England, my timezone in winter was "GMT
> Standard Time" and in summer "GMT Daylight Time". Which exist
> only between the ears of some bright but woefully ignorant
> teenager in Redmond.

LOL!

And speaking of computers, you and the rest of the gang here
might enjoy this article I just stumbled upon:

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2009/09/19/better_pencil/index.html

--Dodi

[EnDash@aol.com]

We city folks don't much like getting up and commuting to work in the dark;
nor do we like the little 'uns trekking to school in darkness, and we
have very few cows to milk or much manure to collect at early hours. :-)

-- Dick


In a message dated 10/25/2009 4:20:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jdharper (AT) softhome (DOT) net writes:

When I worked on the farm, daylight saving time was NOT GOOD. It's too
dewy and wet in the morning. Good moisture conditions for spreading
fungal diseases on plants. :-(

[John Barrs]

JohnnyB here with a fsirly wide range of experiences including farming

What I don't quite understand about the comment below is how human fiddling
with the clock makes the fungal diseases spread.... After all the conditions
are the same regardless of whether we call it 9:00 am or 8:00 am or .. any
other time. If what was meant was that the farmer decided to work
inappropriately in those conditions; then ...
We farmed according to the conditions not the clock - you can't plough a
field on clay during the winter months, no matter what the time is. Another
for instance; cows were milked at the same 'sun-time' all the year round
just cos someone up in London said "what was 8 is now 9" made no difference.


JohnnyB

>When I worked on the farm, daylight saving time was NOT GOOD. It's too dewy
and wet in the morning. Good moisture conditions for spreading fungal
diseases on plants. :-(



> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of davidh
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 8:12 PM
> To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Subject: [Dixonary] Re: OT: EU clocks change today
>
>
>
> Dodi Schultz;59685 Wrote:
> > > << BTW: The US changes from "daylight" to "standard" time (in <<
> > > NY, << from EDT to EST) one week from today.
> > >
> > > UGH! Well, it will be easier to awaken in the a.m. but dark too
> > > early in the evening (or, eventually, late afternoon).
> > >
> > > Judy
> >
> > Second that "UGH!" Happily, the S time period has been shrinking in
> > recent years--down to just a little over four months now.
> It should,
> > IMO, vanish entirely.
> >
> > --DodiYou city folks are ignorant.
> When I worked on the farm, daylight saving time was NOT GOOD.
> It's too dewy and wet in the morning. Good moisture
> conditions for spreading fungal diseases on plants. :-(
>
>
> --
> davidh
>
> DH

[davidh]

JohnnyB here with a fsirly wide range of experiences including farming

What I don't quite understand about the comment below is how human fiddling
with the clock makes the fungal diseases spread.... After all the conditions
are the same regardless of whether we call it 9:00 am or 8:00 am or .. any
other time. If what was meant was that the farmer decided to work
inappropriately in those conditions; then ...
We farmed according to the conditions not the clock - you can't plough a
field on clay during the winter months, no matter what the time is. Another
for instance; cows were milked at the same 'sun-time' all the year round
just cos someone up in London said "what was 8 is now 9" made no difference.


JohnnyB..
My experience was on a university experimental research farm. The workers, including me and my supervisors, were on the "university clock", i.e. along with all the professors, secretaries, janitors, etc. so my experience is not absolutely representative of the whole universe.

BTW, I'm not sure, but I think there is some statistical evidence that extension of daylight savings time farther into the "winter" may lead to increased deaths of pedestrians walking in poor lighting conditions.

and also BTW, I am now a "city folk" and therefore a hypocrite :(