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Dodi Schultz
October 14th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Tim, Tim, and Johnny (and perhaps Jim and Millie as well):

I have a soccer question--or is it what you call football?
(Anyway, it's that game where use of the hands is forbidden in
knocking the large white ball around.) And specifically, as
related to a new film, "The Damned United," which I saw last
weekend. (Note for my fellow Americans: It's VERY good. Stars
Michael Sheen of "Frost/Nixon" and "The Queen.")

Have any of you seen it? My question specifically relates to the
plot of the movie and two incidents in it. (Note to my
compatriots: No, you don't have to know the sport to appreciate
the film. The incidents are only borderline-related to the play
of the game itself.)

--Dodi

JohnnyB
October 14th, 2009, 06:23 PM
Dodi

Re "Damned United": I haven't seen it but I have seen a trailer and I have
seen people (who were involved at the time) talking about it on a TV clip. I
haven't read the book either, again, I have seen extracts: It was
successful and some think it the greatest sporting novel ever written. (that
may be a reflection of modern liking for gritty foul-mouthed "northern"
realism)

I am aware (being the right kind of age) of the intense personality of Brian
Clough and Don Revie and in particular the reputation of Leeds as being very
hard uncompromising players (they were loathed in my part of the world as
"dirty" players - but note, I am a softie southerner.)
I am aware of some script - um, shall I say "freedoms" - taken with the
facts. I know Clough's wife did not want the film made. I know his son (was
a player and is now a manager himself) has refused to comment personally
claiming his own age at the time but says that he has talked to many within
the game who say that it just wasn't like that.
As far as I can see, the professional footballers query the facts, the
professional film critcs love it and the public likes anyone who is made
larger than life. It will probably be a great success. (My own response to
that comment about the public is that I doubt if you could make "Cloughie"
larger than he was)

So I know something about it.

One comment I will make about the game itself - because your American
Football was so alien to me in this area when I first was over there. There
is no off-ball body contact (not legally)
One comment I will make about your question. In the days of which the film
was speaking, it wasn't a white ball but a very much heavier than today
brown ball - head one of those on a regular basis and the likelihood of
brain damage was much higher than with today's light white ball.

You have some pretty good American players of the game.


JohnnyB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of Dodi Schultz
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:34 PM
> To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Subject: [Dixonary] OT: A question for the Brits among us
>
>
>
> Tim, Tim, and Johnny (and perhaps Jim and Millie as well):
>
> I have a soccer question--or is it what you call football?
> (Anyway, it's that game where use of the hands is forbidden
> in knocking the large white ball around.) And specifically,
> as related to a new film, "The Damned United," which I saw
> last weekend. (Note for my fellow Americans: It's VERY good.
> Stars Michael Sheen of "Frost/Nixon" and "The Queen.")
>
> Have any of you seen it? My question specifically relates to
> the plot of the movie and two incidents in it. (Note to my
> compatriots: No, you don't have to know the sport to
> appreciate the film. The incidents are only
> borderline-related to the play of the game itself.)
>
> --Dodi
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.14/2433 - Release
> Date: 10/13/09 13:25:00
>

Tim B
October 15th, 2009, 04:05 AM
> Have any of you seen it?


sorry, no.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

Tim Lodge
October 15th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Dodi

No, I haven't seen "The Damned United" either.

-- Tim L

Dodi Schultz
October 15th, 2009, 09:55 AM
Tim, Johnny, and Tim,

Guess none of you have seen "The Damned United"--yet, anyway. (It
just opened here last weekend. If it's still playing over there,
do see it. It's a very good film (you can check out the reviews
at www.metacritic.com).

Since I've now learned a little bit about the real Brian Clough,
let me ask my plot-related question anyway; it may have reflected
an actual event. In the film, while Clough was still managing his
first team--Derby, I believe--he was asked by the chairman of the
owners' group to do something and adamantly refused. What he was
asked was unclear to both me and the person I saw the movie with,
but it seemed he may have been asked to throw the game and
refused to do so. (Clough is depicted as driven and inordinately
ambitious but nonetheless principled.)

The question is whether our impression was correct and, if so,
why that request might have been made. The chairman was a highly
respected, proper businessman, not one who might have made side
bets against his own team.

We had another question, too--historical rather than related to
the movie itself. Later in the film, after Clough has moved to
the United, a player on that team is fined and suspended for
fouling, and we're given to understand that Leeds was wont to
behave that way under Revie. If so, how did they stay on top for
so long? Were their nasty habits simply ignored?

TIA for any light you may be able to shed.

--Dodi

JohnnyB
October 15th, 2009, 11:03 AM
Dodi

As I understand what I have read and seen (extracts and clips only)

Q1. Derby had an important (this is where the money comes from) match in the
European Cup. There is an intervening League match before that game and the
chairman suggests that Clough rest his best players from the League match -
Because it is against (the enemy) Leeds United Clough doesn't rest any
players and in a very 'crunching' match Derby end up with a large injury
list and cannot field the full team in the European Cup match - which they
then lost. Clough's action here (as portrayed) was probably stupid. All
managers consider the games ahead and rest people appropriately.

Q2. Difficult question to answer. My best answer (do not forget that I am a
soft southerner and that this is merely an opinion) is that Soccer has it
roots in the working class North and was seen as a man's sport (man not as
opposed to female but as opposed to soft (and southern)) I can remember when
salaries started to be properly professional (1961) but when I was a tad
footballers received the same kind of wage as farmworkers - ie near to
nothing (20.00 a week) - it was just another job and played for pride in
your local club. Today, even in the premiership with multi-million transfers
and enormous wages some of the Nothern clubs are still driven by pride in
the local town; this is a dominant force both among supporters and players
and staff. I am trying to give a feel for passion.

Leeds in particular (but there were others, Manchester United and Newcastle
United in particular) were extremely hard players and in those days the
referees did not protect people as much. It is still true that our players
have to play a different way when playing in Europe than at home. Any tackle
from behind in Europe is liable to be a foul - here, not so likely. (And
this despite the fact that there is a large proportion of overseas players
in the Premier league)
There is a very famous photograph of Dave Mackay (senior Derby player in the
film) who had lost two whole seasons due to two dreadful broken legs (broken
in tackles both times) who was tackled very hard and late by the Leeds
captain when he came back after the second broken leg. Mackay felt the
tackle was a typical unfair late tackle and literally picked Bremner up by
the shirt and had a verbal go at him.

Does that help?

JohnnyB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf Of Dodi Schultz
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:56 PM
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Subject: [Dixonary] Re: OT: A question for the Brits among us
>
>
>
> Tim, Johnny, and Tim,
>
> Guess none of you have seen "The Damned United"--yet, anyway.
> (It just opened here last weekend. If it's still playing over
> there, do see it. It's a very good film (you can check out
> the reviews at www.metacritic.com).
>
> Since I've now learned a little bit about the real Brian
> Clough, let me ask my plot-related question anyway; it may
> have reflected an actual event. In the film, while Clough was
> still managing his first team--Derby, I believe--he was asked
> by the chairman of the owners' group to do something and
> adamantly refused. What he was asked was unclear to both me
> and the person I saw the movie with, but it seemed he may
> have been asked to throw the game and refused to do so.
> (Clough is depicted as driven and inordinately ambitious but
> nonetheless principled.)
>
> The question is whether our impression was correct and, if
> so, why that request might have been made. The chairman was a
> highly respected, proper businessman, not one who might have
> made side bets against his own team.
>
> We had another question, too--historical rather than related
> to the movie itself. Later in the film, after Clough has
> moved to the United, a player on that team is fined and
> suspended for fouling, and we're given to understand that
> Leeds was wont to behave that way under Revie. If so, how did
> they stay on top for so long? Were their nasty habits simply ignored?
>
> TIA for any light you may be able to shed.
>
> --Dodi

Dodi Schultz
October 15th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Johnny, thank you so much.

Your reply certainly does answer the first question; we hadn't
grasped the sequence of the games, obviously.

On the second, I understand that it's partly conjecture, but it
makes sense that although Leeds may have had players sidelined
from time to time, other teams were also hit by suspensions and
injuries, enabling Leeds to hold the number 1 position.

--Dodi

John Barrs
October 15th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Dodi
>
> On the second, I understand that it's partly conjecture, but
> it makes sense that although Leeds may have had players
> sidelined from time to time, other teams were also hit by
> suspensions and injuries, enabling Leeds to hold the number 1
> position.
>

I suspect that they just played 'harder' than anyone else. That certainly
was what Clough thought and tried to change when he was first appointed to
Leeds

JohnnyB