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Lindsey
July 25th, 2005, 10:09 PM
A new poll (http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=250) released by the Pew Research Center shows that public opinion of Bush's character continues its downward path. Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/07/22/poll/index.html) notes:

The most amusing results of the survey are the one-word descriptions, in which pollsters asked each respondent to come up with one word to describe Bush. "Honest" came in No. 1, but only 31 people said it, as opposed to the 38 people who said it in February. Here are the top responses in this week's poll, presented in descending order: honest, incompetent, arrogant, good, integrity, determined, liar, stupid, idiot, strong, leader. Compared to the last sampling in February, "good" is down 2, "integrity" is up 3, "arrogant" is up 9, and "incompetent" is up by a whopping 12 votes. No one volunteered "sucks" as a one-word encapsulation this time around, down from 7 in February.

I'm sure the Bush people are much relieved about that, at least.

--Lindsey

Bill Hirst
July 26th, 2005, 04:59 AM
...The most amusing results of the survey are the one-word descriptions, in which pollsters asked each respondent to come up with one word to describe Bush. "Honest" came in No. 1, but only 31 people said it, as opposed to the 38 people who said it in February.
--Lindsey
There may be a place in the space-time continuum where Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were truly an imminent threat the the safety of the United States. It may be that Bush believes the Oval Office is such a place where WMD and Schroedinger's cat are both alive and dead. Bush may be honest about his beliefs.

Others might call him delusional.

Judy G. Russell
July 26th, 2005, 09:54 AM
It may be that Bush believes the Oval Office is such a place where WMD and Schroedinger's cat are both alive and dead.
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lindsey
July 26th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Bush may be honest about his beliefs.

Others might call him delusional.
I imagine he was being honest when he said, "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right." ;)

--Lindsey

chm
August 1st, 2005, 04:03 PM
I imagine he was being honest when he said, "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right." ;)

--Lindsey
Oh, I believe Bush was being honest here, too. Really.

The man is so "misunderestimated." (quoting him)

Along these same lines, I remember when Bush was once presented to a large number of troops and right off he addressed them as America's "breast and brightest." How all those soldiers didn't crack up is amazing and much to their credit. How the news anchors presenting the video kept straight faces is amazing, too.

I sat there and thought Bush said what?! I saw it twice. I wasn't imagining it.

It's kind of like that middle finger Bush flashed at the media the other day. I was imagining it, right? No.

Heaven help us. Isn't it 2008 yet?

Lindsey
August 1st, 2005, 09:00 PM
It's kind of like that middle finger Bush flashed at the media the other day. I was imagining it, right? No.
He really did that? If so, I missed it. What a jerk. Reminds me of the time he told a voter who registered disagreement with him, "Who cares what you think?" This is the reason I have never liked the man: he's an arrogant bully. No wonder he was so keen on John Bolton.

--Lindsey

RayB (France)
August 2nd, 2005, 01:03 PM
>>It's kind of like that middle finger Bush flashed at the media the other day. I was imagining it, right?<<

I'd love to see that! Can you give me some details?

Jeff
August 2nd, 2005, 01:09 PM
He really did that? If so, I missed it. What a jerk. Reminds me of the time he told a voter who registered disagreement with him, "Who cares what you think?" This is the reason I have never liked the man: he's an arrogant bully. No wonder he was so keen on John Bolton.

--Lindsey

And so down on John McCain:

http://www.durangoherald.com/index_opinion.asp

TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, 2005

"Who we are"

Jeff

Dan in Saint Louis
August 2nd, 2005, 03:19 PM
I'd love to see that!
http://landiss.info/BushEpII.mov

Left-click to play, right-click and select the command to Save As.

Dick K
August 2nd, 2005, 03:33 PM
http://landiss.info/BushEpII.mov

Left-click to play, right-click and select the command to Save As.The bird flip in that clip looks to be about 20 years old. Does that qualify as "the other day"?

chm
August 2nd, 2005, 03:40 PM
Here's the link to the One Good Move blog which "documents" the presidential giving-of-the-finger quite well.

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002261.html

I'm sure you've seen the video around where Bush does the same thing - while at a podium. It's from his past and was dug up and passed around during the 2004 presidential campaign.

My husband considers it reflective of Bush's "Animal House" past. Not really something you want to see in a president. Okay, okay, I'll admit that Clinton could get tacky, too... as in Monica... Regardless, not classy presidential behavior.

Yes, not only is Bush an arrogant bully, as you said, but could he please stop smirking and behave a little more grown-up?

BTW, I love the title to this thread. LOL.

chm

chm
August 2nd, 2005, 03:48 PM
And so down on John McCain:

http://www.durangoherald.com/index_opinion.asp

TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, 2005

"Who we are"

Jeff
Appreciate the link.

Yes, who knows more in Washington about POWs than McCain? A good man, McCain, BTW.

I especially like this:

We are better than this. We can defend our own principles without compromising them. We have to; otherwise those principles are not worth defending at all.

Something we all need to keep in mind always.

Carolyn

chm
August 2nd, 2005, 03:52 PM
>>It's kind of like that middle finger Bush flashed at the media the other day. I was imagining it, right?<<

I'd love to see that! Can you give me some details?
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002261.html

I posted it earlier in the thread, but here it is again, please pardon me lurkers.

Note that there has been some disagreement about which finger it was. Some say the thumb. It sure doesn't look like a thumb to me, I think some want us to believe it was a thumb. Spin doctors at work?

chm

Dan in Saint Louis
August 2nd, 2005, 06:04 PM
The bird flip in that clip looks to be about 20 years old. Does that qualify as "the other day"?
Probably not, in which case it must have happened more than once -- see another link in this thread.

Dick K
August 2nd, 2005, 06:19 PM
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002261.html

I posted it earlier in the thread, but here it is again, please pardon me lurkers.

Note that there has been some disagreement about which finger it was. Some say the thumb. It sure doesn't look like a thumb to me, I think some want us to believe it was a thumb. Spin doctors at work?Carolyn -

The unanimous opinion of the reporters who were present is that it was the President's thumb that was raised.

Yes, the spinners are at work, but in this case, the "spin" is that the President flipped off the reporters. Alas, the truth seems to be somewhat more prosaic.

Dick K
August 2nd, 2005, 06:20 PM
Probably not, in which case it must have happened more than once -- see another link in this thread.Dan -

It does not make for as good a story, but it seems pretty clear that the President raised his thumb, not his middle finger....

Dick K
August 2nd, 2005, 07:34 PM
He really did that?No; he didn't. Sorry.

Lindsey
August 2nd, 2005, 09:34 PM
"Who we are"Jeff
Thanks for the reminder--I've been meaning to write John Warner, one of the co-sponsors of that same amendment, to thank him for the stand he has taken on that, in spite of the strong-arming he and McCain and Lindsey Graham are receiving from President Top Gun.

According to The New York Times, when the proposal was being discussed on the Senate floor last week, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., argued there was no need for it because the detainees are not prisoners of war, "they are terrorists."

There are many problems with that statement, the first being that it may not be true.
Indeed so. Check out this story (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/26/put_cleared_detainees_in_a_hotel_lawyer_says/) of 16 Chinese Muslims fleeing religious persecution in China--and who managed to end up at Guantanamo thanks, in all probability, to a $5000 per head bounty the U.S. was paying for people turned into them as "terrorists." (Follow-up story here (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/08/02/us_judge_eyes_moving_2_guantanamo_detainees/).) A military tribunal found in March that they had simply been "in the wrong place at the wrong time" -- but never informed their lawyers of that, and since the men were being held incommunicado, they had no way of telling their lawyers themselves. The lawyers were finally informed in July, but they still haven't been able to get their clients released from prison. They can't be sent back to China, where they'd certainly be subject to persecution, but their lawyers want them released among the civilians at Guantanamo until some permanent placement can be found for them. Now, however, the government is saying, "Hey, they've been in close quarters with some bad dudes. We can't let them out--how do we know they haven't turned bad?"

Who are we, indeed?

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 2nd, 2005, 10:12 PM
Left-click to play, right-click and select the command to Save As.
Damn, I spent 30 minutes downloading that thing, and on my system, it won't play. :(

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 2nd, 2005, 10:29 PM
Here's the link to the One Good Move blog which "documents" the presidential giving-of-the-finger quite well.
Too big a download for a dialup connection; I'll try it at the office, but ever since I moved to this new laptop, I haven't been able to get Quicktime movies to play, no matter how many times downloaded and installed the plugin.

I'm sure you've seen the video around where Bush does the same thing
Actually, no, I haven't--this is the first I've heard of either of these, but I can't say it surprises me. It fits with someone who would give the people around him demeaning nicknames and think himself cute, and with someone who would be making silly eyes at the camera only minutes before announcing to the American people that he was launching a war.

As I said: what a jerk.

--Lindsey

P.S. Glad you like the thread title. ;)

Lindsey
August 2nd, 2005, 10:38 PM
No; he didn't. Sorry.
Apparently not recently, anyway, which would explain why I hadn't heard anything about it elsewhere. Unless, of course, you count the appointment of John Bolton as ambassador to the UN, which could be seen as a figurative way of flipping the bird at the U.S. Senate and most of the rest of the world.

"John Bolton is to diplomacy as Jack the Ripper was to surgery." --Ian Williams, UN Correspondent, The Nation

--Lindsey

Dick K
August 3rd, 2005, 02:04 AM
Yes, who knows more in Washington about POWs than McCain? A good man, McCain, BTW.He certainly is. The more I read about him--there was an excellent piece about him in a recent New Yorker--the more I hope he will run for President in 2008. I disagree with John McCain on a number of issues (most notably on those involving reproductive rights), but I deeply admire his candor, his honesty, and his profound sense of honor.

Bill Hirst
August 3rd, 2005, 04:42 AM
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002261.html
Note that there has been some disagreement about which finger it was. Some say the thumb. It sure doesn't look like a thumb to me, I think some want us to believe it was a thumb. Spin doctors at work?

chm

I'm suspect Bush believes it was a thumb, and he believes that... what he believes is the truth. Too bad it's the same type of argument that's been used throughout history to justify witch burning, suicidal cults (and suicide bombers),
not to mention UFOs, scientology and the The Holy Inquisition.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 3rd, 2005, 08:48 AM
it seems pretty clear that the President raised his thumb, not his middle finger....
Clear to some, "spin" to others. I have not had time to try to enlarge the movie window or play in slo-mo, but so far I'd say the chance of an upraised thumb appearing in the middle of of a fist is small.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 3rd, 2005, 08:49 AM
Damn, I spent 30 minutes downloading that thing, and on my system, it won't play. :(

--Lindsey

Apple QuickTime. Free from apple.com.

Wayne Scott
August 3rd, 2005, 11:38 AM
Dick: As usual I agree with you to a great extent. However, I worry about whether McCain can control his famous temper. To me, he is one of the magnificent heroes of all time. His refusal to be released by the North Vietnamese was an act of breath-taking courage and decency.
As I look at the band of ???? circling for the nomination from both parties, old John just looks better and better.
Imagine the choice of going to the polls and having the choice of voting against Senator Rodham or Doctor Frist!
Terrified in Tennessee

Lindsey
August 3rd, 2005, 06:01 PM
Apple QuickTime. Free from apple.com.
I've installed it. Several times.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 3rd, 2005, 06:18 PM
Oh, I believe Bush was being honest here, too. Really.
W's lack of self-doubt is in contrast with his father, who once acknowledged, "I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them."

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 3rd, 2005, 06:24 PM
Left-click to play, right-click and select the command to Save As.
OK! Here at the office it will play, at least. Funny clip. It would be interesting to know just when that particular shot was taken. I suspect it may have been when he was governor of Texas.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 3rd, 2005, 06:32 PM
Clear to some, "spin" to others. I have not had time to try to enlarge the movie window or play in slo-mo, but so far I'd say the chance of an upraised thumb appearing in the middle of of a fist is small.
Photography can do things to perspective that make things appear as they are not. The first impression you get as you see the clip is that it's a middle finger, but if you hit the "Pause and advance it frame by frame, by the time you get to the end of the gesture, it really does look quite plausibly like a thumb.

Bill Hirst
August 3rd, 2005, 09:06 PM
Clear to some, "spin" to others. I have not had time to try to enlarge the movie window or play in slo-mo, but so far I'd say the chance of an upraised thumb appearing in the middle of of a fist is small.
There should be no doubt about this clip: http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/bushvideos/v/bushflipbird.htm
However, it was obviously just some pre-broadcast hijinks.

Lindsey
August 3rd, 2005, 10:25 PM
There should be no doubt about this clip:
Aha! I was right--it was during the time that Bush was governor of Texas. And apparently during the later months of his term--in other words, not long before he was appointed president. So much for being part of his "young and foolish" days (which, in any case, apparently extended into his forties).

--Lindsey

woodswell
August 3rd, 2005, 10:56 PM
Lindsey,
I downloaded both clips, played them full screen and grabbed a screen shot.
I am pretty certain it is not a thumb sticking up, especially when I played the clip from the other day full, frame at a time. The motion of his hand seems to show that it was a finger. I am just not sure which one - if you compare his fist to the shape of the one in the older clip (which I believe is pre-election 2000), it is possible that it the the first finger sticking up, with the thumb alongside, making it look as though it is the middle finger.

I hate to give him the benefit of any doubt but in this case I have to.
Anne

Dick K
August 4th, 2005, 02:07 AM
Clear to some, "spin" to others. I have not had time to try to enlarge the movie window or play in slo-mo, but so far I'd say the chance of an upraised thumb appearing in the middle of of a fist is small.Odd that everyone who was present says it was his thumb....

Dick K
August 4th, 2005, 02:09 AM
Imagine the choice of going to the polls and having the choice of voting against Senator Rodham or Doctor Frist!Wayne,

That would be a pretty grim choice, although I must say that Frist has scored major points in my book with his courageous reversal of position on the question of stem cell research.

Dick K
August 4th, 2005, 02:10 AM
...not long before he was appointed president.He was elected. Live with it.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Whatever it is, that single frame shows it isn't a thumb. Index finger maybe. Thumb no.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 09:13 AM
I must say that Frist has scored major points in my book with his courageous reversal of position on the question of stem cell research.
Ditto. It certainly was remarkable and a move in the right direction.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 09:14 AM
He may have been elected the first time (by fiat of the Court and vote of the electoral college). He was elected the second time.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 09:15 AM
The photo posted here shows it absolutely was not his thumb. Thumbs aren't in that position, aren't that long and don't work that way. Index finger most likely rather than the middle finger. But not a thumb.

Bill Hirst
August 4th, 2005, 02:51 PM
He was elected. Live with it.
We should expand term limits for the Chief Executive, prohibiting a close family member from even running. We should stamp out this "dynasty goverment" trend that seems to have gotten started.

How many people here think Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush have presidential aspirations?

Wayne Scott
August 4th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Dick:
I absolutely agree with that. However, in general I am not one of my dear colleagues big fans.

Wayne

Wayne Scott
August 4th, 2005, 03:30 PM
I guess there are several of us around here who want to "murder defenseless little children, our God given gift." In other words, those defenseless little fertilized zygotes are more important then anything else.
Surly in Surinam

Lindsey
August 4th, 2005, 05:01 PM
I am pretty certain it is not a thumb sticking up . . .
I hate to give him the benefit of any doubt but in this case I have to.
Anne
I just don't think there's enough detail in that shot to be able to tell. It is possible to look at that hand in a way that it does indeed look like a thumb, and since that's the way every reporter who was actually there saw the gesture, and since it fits with the question he was apparently being asked at the time (regarding the prospects for passing CAFTA), I have to conclude that what makes it look so strongly otherwise in the video is (1) the power of Leno's suggestion; (2) lack of the full context of incident--you can't hear the reporters, for instance; and (3) the inevitable distortions that occur when you represent 3-dimensional images in 2 dimensions.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 4th, 2005, 05:10 PM
Ditto. It certainly was remarkable and a move in the right direction.
One of the NPR shows today--"Day to Day" I think--was interviewing a reporter from Slate who was saying that based on some of the other things that Frist had said in the early days of his political career, it looked like he might really have been pro-choice all along; he just wasn't in Congress early enough to have had to vote on the early anti-Roe legislation that got slapped down by the Supreme Court.

I hope that really is his position, and that he will continue to stick to it, but why do I think that if it had been a Democrat appearing to shift positions at a convenient time like that, the air would have been filled with cries of "flip-flop!" and "opportunist!" and "complete lack of principles!"?

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 4th, 2005, 05:17 PM
He may have been elected the first time (by fiat of the Court and vote of the electoral college). He was elected the second time.
It was the first time I was referring to: the time that "late in his term as governor" would have corresponded to.

I am convinced that the majority of voters in Florida voted for Al Gore in 2000. What the US Supreme Court did was unforgivable.

--Lindsey

Mike
August 4th, 2005, 06:06 PM
...although I must say that Frist has scored major points in my book with his courageous reversal of position on the question of stem cell research.
Now if he could have a reversal of position about the national religion.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 08:46 PM
In other words, those defenseless little fertilized zygotes are more important then anything else.
Yeah, that seems to be the basic idea. Of course, the notion that those who want to protect those defenseless little fertilized zygotes would ever do anything for the children who are born is a stretch but...

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2005, 08:47 PM
Now if he could have a reversal of position about the national religion.
And a few other minor little issues here and there...

Dick K
August 4th, 2005, 11:58 PM
...but why do I think that if it had been a Democrat appearing to shift positions at a convenient [emphasis added] time like that, the air would have been filled with cries of "flip-flop!" and "opportunist!" and "complete lack of principles!"?That's an easy one: It is because you believe that anything done by any Democrat is pure, just, and good, while anything done by any Republican is hypocritical, evil, and malicious.

Dick K
August 4th, 2005, 11:59 PM
Now if he could have a reversal of position about the national religion.Mike -

One step at a time <g>.

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 02:04 AM
He may have been elected the first time (by fiat of the Court and vote of the electoral college). He was elected the second time.Judy -

He was elected (by the Electoral College, in accordance with the Constitution) both times.

RayB (France)
August 5th, 2005, 05:31 AM
The photo posted here shows it absolutely was not his thumb. Thumbs aren't in that position, aren't that long and don't work that way. Index finger most likely rather than the middle finger. But not a thumb.

I always seem to be amazed, although I shouldn't, by how we all tend to see what we want to see dependant upon our bias. We all go to great lengths to prove our points. Perspective!

As an example, back when the GOP was resisting Clinton's nominees in the Senate, the Senior Senator for Messatoshits (never could spell that right!) said and I quote -

"I have long urged recess appointments to break this logjam this irresponsible, unconstitutional Republican leadership position which fails to give people their due and fails to meet the constitutional standard.".

However, it has now become -

". . . . devious maneuver that evades the constitutional requirement of Senate consent."

Ah, perspective!

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2005, 09:15 AM
The problems in Florida and the Court's decision created that "election", Dick. The circumstances -- a razor thin margin in a state where his brother was governor and was in a position to (and apparently did) exercise his powers to keep legitimate voters from voting and their votes from being counted -- mean that electoral college vote will always be clouded. (He did of course lose the popular vote.) But there is no question as to his second term.

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:08 PM
I'm suspect Bush believes it was a thumb, and he believes that... what he believes is the truth. Too bad it's the same type of argument that's been used throughout history to justify witch burning, suicidal cults (and suicide bombers),
not to mention UFOs, scientology and the The Holy Inquisition.
Hmm, I read an article in the Op-Ed pages of the L.A. Times today that basically agrees with you. Reality, facts, and specifics not being that important to Bush. Instead he follows his intuition, his feelings, his heart, what he believes.

Usually not that bad for the guy next door. Not so desirable in the "Leader of the Free World" and our president, however.

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:10 PM
...I deeply admire his candor, his honesty, and his profound sense of honor.

Yes! I don't always agree with all his politics, but I do like the man.

Have you ever heard his P.O.W. story - Hanoi Hilton, and all that? McCain's been through a lot.

Carolyn

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Yeah, that seems to be the basic idea. Of course, the notion that those who want to protect those defenseless little fertilized zygotes would ever do anything for the children who are born is a stretch but...
Love the fetus, hate the child - as some say.

I've a whole new outlook on this since I found myself with several potential descendants kept in a laboratory dish.

First two of them - the most viable two - became the twins Joshua and Nicholas; then, later, one of the most viable remaining zygotes became the sweetie lil Lucas. (Lucas had only a 10% chance of "taking.")

As for my remaining laboratory descendants, at least one of them was damaged somewhere along the line. I'm not sure what's become of the rest, but it does seem there never could have been any more children out of the "batch", even if wanted.

Do you know that there are only four things to do with these in vitro potential babies? (1) try to make babies (2) try to make babies later (3) pay rent on the freezer storage (and, yes, zygotes do "go bad" after a long enough time) indefinitely (4) stop paying rent and dispose of them.

My attitude became more positive about stem cell research after I found out about #3 and #4. I would much rather see my descendants used for stem cell research then to have them "go bad" (after my daughter spent $Ks on the rent) or get tossed in the garbage!

Guess we were talking more about choice than about stem cells, but, in the same ballpark?

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:37 PM
...someone who would give the people around him demeaning nicknames...

Yeah, like what's with "Turd Blossom"? Although it does seem Rove is one, considering.

I'm still wondering why my senior senator is called "Frazier" (Sen. Feinstein).

I wish our president would grow up already.

Carolyn

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:46 PM
...it is possible that it the the first finger sticking up, with the thumb alongside, making it look as though it is the middle finger.

Sure looks like a middle finger to me, although if his hand were twisted it could be a sidewise fist with the thumb upraised...

Anyway, yeah, whatever, I'll cut the guy some slack, the world will still turn, etc., regardless ; )

The fact that people would even think that it could be that rude gesture doesn't say much for Bush. Would we be having this discussion about our other presidents?

chm

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:51 PM
We should expand term limits for the Chief Executive, prohibiting a close family member from even running. We should stamp out this "dynasty goverment" trend that seems to have gotten started.

How many people here think Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush have presidential aspirations?
Interesting idea. Don't know if I agree or not, but interesting.

Presidential aspirations?

Hillary - yes
Jeb - no (or at least so he says)

chm
August 5th, 2005, 05:59 PM
He was elected. Live with it.
I agree with Judy.

Bush was elected the second term; selected, perhaps, the first term.

I get bitchy about Bush mostly to point out to people that they ought to be more careful about whom they vote for. People need to think. It matters.

Also, it's probably time we did away with the Electoral College - it's elitist and no longer fits our world. The popular vote is good enough.

Okay, that's easy for me to say here in California. ; )

Carolyn

chm
August 5th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I kinda like Bush, Sr. I wish his son George were more like him.

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Do you know that there are only four things to do with these in vitro potential babies? (1) try to make babies (2) try to make babies later (3) pay rent on the freezer storage (and, yes, zygotes do "go bad" after a long enough time) indefinitely (4) stop paying rent and dispose of them. My attitude became more positive about stem cell research after I found out about #3 and #4. I would much rather see my descendants used for stem cell research then to have them "go bad" (after my daughter spent $Ks on the rent) or get tossed in the garbage!
It does seem like a better choice, doesn't it? Too bad more people don't understand the realities involved.

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2005, 06:35 PM
I get bitchy about Bush mostly to point out to people that they ought to be more careful about whom they vote for. People need to think. It matters.
Makes you wonder how the Florida Nader voters feel about what they did in 2000, doesn't it...?

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 07:31 PM
My attitude became more positive about stem cell research after I found out about #3 and #4. I would much rather see my descendants used for stem cell research then to have them "go bad" (after my daughter spent $Ks on the rent) or get tossed in the garbage!Carolyn -

Very well put. I wish others would take off the blinders and recognize stem cell research for the amazing potential it holds.

Alas, the religious right will continue to scream bloody murder (literally), and I am afraid that Hollywood nonsense like "Island" will not help matters much <sigh>.

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Have you ever heard his P.O.W. story - Hanoi Hilton, and all that?nCarolyn -

Yes; I am familiar with that amazing story.

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Would we be having this discussion about our other presidents?Were it not for the anatomical difficulties involved, one could suspect WJC of raising a different body part to the assembled multitudes....

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 07:41 PM
The problems in Florida and the Court's decision created that "election", Dick. The circumstances -- a razor thin margin in a state where his brother was governor and was in a position to (and apparently did) exercise his powers to keep legitimate voters from voting and their votes from being counted -- mean that electoral college vote will always be clouded. (He did of course lose the popular vote.)The results of that Electoral College vote may have been "clouded" (shoot--the results of the 1960 popular vote in Illinois remain "clouded," and I speak as one who cast his first presidential vote for John F. Kennedy), but the fact remains: GWB was elected to the office by the Electoral College; a throwaway comment that he was "appointed" is a cheap shot.

Whether he won or lost the popular vote is really not material; others have won the Electoral College vote with a minority of the popular vote. The remedy for that injustice is to modify the electoral system through a Constitutional amendment.

Dick K
August 5th, 2005, 07:43 PM
We should expand term limits for the Chief Executive, prohibiting a close family member from even running. We should stamp out this "dynasty goverment" trend that seems to have gotten started.Wasn't it India (with the Ghandi clan) that started the modern concept of heriditary democracies?

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2005, 10:05 PM
I wish others would take off the blinders and recognize stem cell research for the amazing potential it holds.
Amen, brother, and again I say amen. There are so many possibilities with stem cell research, it's almost breathtaking.

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Whether he won or lost the popular vote is really not material
That kind of depends on whether the popular vote he actually won was in Florida, doesn't it...

Lindsey
August 5th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Yeah, like what's with "Turd Blossom"? Although it does seem Rove is one, considering.
Bush and Rove are apparently close; if Rove wants to accept a nickname like that from the guy he managed to put into the White House, that's up to him. I think it's demeaning and smacks of frat boy arrogance, but if it's OK with Rove, well...

But I can't imagine that Bush is close to Diane Feinstien, so why should she have to suffer a nickname at all? Reminds me of a cousin of mine who is extremely short and in our growing-up years had the annoying habit of patting all the rest of us ( all of us taller than she was) on the head whenever she encountered us. It was meant as a patronizing gesture, and that's how I see Bush's penchant for nicknames. It's not a gesture of affection; it's a putdown from a shrimp. (There is a reason that cartoonists invariably portray Bush as being the size of an elf, even though he's really not physically short. He lacks stature in just about every other way, though.)

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 5th, 2005, 10:24 PM
The fact that people would even think that it could be that rude gesture doesn't say much for Bush.
Exactly. Nobody would have thought that about Gerald Ford or Ronald Reagan.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
August 5th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Were it not for the anatomical difficulties involved, one could suspect WJC of raising a different body part to the assembled multitudes....
It's so refreshing to know that there are people in this world who are completely above taking cheap shots.

--Lindsey

Bill Hirst
August 6th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Wasn't it India (with the Ghandi clan) that started the modern concept of heriditary democracies?
If it weren't for that unfortunate incident back in 1776, we'd be loyal subjects of a heriditary monarchy.

<exunt, humming "America" or "God Save the Queen" (it's a bit hard to tell without the lyrics)>

Judy G. Russell
August 6th, 2005, 08:03 PM
...heriditary monarchy
... heriditary monarchy
<pedant mode>
Argggh!! It's hereditary, not heriditary!!
</pedant mode>

RayB (France)
August 7th, 2005, 03:25 AM
<pedant mode>
Argggh!! It's hereditary, not heriditary!!
</pedant mode>

OH MY GAWD!! Dick's life is over!!

Judy G. Russell
August 7th, 2005, 10:37 AM
OH MY GAWD!! Dick's life is over!!
He and Bill will surely be sharing one of the Lord Protector's cells...

chm
August 7th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Makes you wonder how the Florida Nader voters feel about what they did in 2000, doesn't it...?
Yep.

I'll include those who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004, as well.

(ducking a truckload of thrown rotten tomates)

During the 2000 campaign I used to point out to people just what kind of guy Dubya was and about his history. Must have been a lot of people who didn't do their homework. I'm not sure what else it could have been. I remain amazed.

Okay, it's not like the Democratic choices were really that great, I'll admit. But, choosing Dubya instead in 2004? Must have been about the war and security, jeesh.

My fellow Americans should not have been so afraid?

chm

Judy G. Russell
August 7th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Okay, it's not like the Democratic choices were really that great, I'll admit.
That, as my sister-in-law would say, is a True Fact...

Lindsey
August 7th, 2005, 09:53 PM
During the 2000 campaign I used to point out to people just what kind of guy Dubya was and about his history. Must have been a lot of people who didn't do their homework. I'm not sure what else it could have been. I remain amazed.
You and me both. Nothing that Bush has done since he became president has been any great surprise to me--except, perhaps, the sheer chutzpah of it. But it follows all the same lines as his earlier history, and not just his political history. His career as a businessman, where he managed to prosper while consistently losing money for his investors, is also a strong parallel.

--Lindsey

Bill Hirst
August 8th, 2005, 10:52 AM
<pedant mode>
Argggh!! It's hereditary, not heriditary!!
</pedant mode>
Obviously. I meant to write herditary monarchy, with all the lemmings (Executive Brance of Government) jumping into the sea (invading Iraq) because everybody else thought it was a good idea.

Judy G. Russell
August 8th, 2005, 12:10 PM
I meant to write herditary monarchy, with all the lemmings (Executive Brance of Government) jumping into the sea (invading Iraq) because everybody else thought it was a good idea.
ROFL!!! Okay. I'll buy that.

Dick K
August 9th, 2005, 02:45 AM
<pedant mode>
Argggh!! It's hereditary, not heriditary!!
</pedant mode>Indeed it is, but please note that I referred to hereditary democracies, and not the "hereditary monarchy" you somehow ascribed to me in your "quote."

Judy G. Russell
August 9th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Oooops...

fhaber
August 13th, 2005, 11:40 AM
(Forwarded to me by somebody named Monte, and possibly outside your normal web haunts. It impressed me. Note the guy's credentials...)

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8485

rlohmann
August 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
(Forwarded to me by somebody named Monte, and possibly outside your normal web haunts. Not outside of my web haunts, unfortunately.

Along with "Human Events" and "The Economist," I'm becoming uneasy about some of the sloganeering and sabre-rattling that's going on around Bush. While I am not ready to concede that Iran is not an extraordinarily dangerous entity--if you know that God wants you to wipe out Israel and/or die trying, and you have money and nuclear technology, you're an extraordinarily dangerous entity--I do think, along with the first President Roosevelt (the good President Roosevelt) that speaking softly is preferable.

I also, of course, want to make certain I have plenty of sticks in the closet.

Judy G. Russell
August 13th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Along with "Human Events" and "The Economist," I'm becoming uneasy about some of the sloganeering and sabre-rattling that's going on around Bush.
Becoming uneasy? Sabre-rattling around "Bring 'Em On!" Bush?

MollyM/CA
August 13th, 2005, 05:13 PM
In other words, those defenseless little fertilized zygotes are more important then anything else.
Surly in Surinam

I always wonder why they think using surplus embryo transplant cell aggregations to save lives is murder and flushing them down the toilet, as will eventually happen, is OK.