Fedie Mac

[ndebord]

As one wit on PBS said: Fedie Mac, as in we have nationalized the mortage industry, taken over the insurance industry and become the guaranteer of the financial marketplace too. Nationalized Wall Street it seems and will this be the savior of the nation or just a bandaid on a continuing slide?

Way back in the 70s, I took a few economic courses with some escapees from Hitler and proponents of economic marxism, otherwise known as the Frankfurt School. One of the theories presented was the long wave cycle of boom and bust in capitalism:

http://www.kwaves.com/kond_overview.htm

[Judy G. Russell]

It was Franklin Roosevelt who said free markets can be TOO free. We certainly have seen that!

[ndebord]

It was Franklin Roosevelt who said free markets can be TOO free. We certainly have seen that!

Judy,

And he is spinning in his grave knowing that the descendents of his philosophical enemies have come around to employing his methods of mitigating the freefall.

[Judy G. Russell]

And he is spinning in his grave knowing that the descendents of his philosophical enemies have come around to employing his methods of mitigating the freefall.No, I think he would agree that bthe means to mitigate the freefall are all we have. Where he IS spinning in his grave is over the fact that it became necessary to mitigate the freefall!

[ndebord]

No, I think he would agree that bthe means to mitigate the freefall are all we have. Where he IS spinning in his grave is over the fact that it became necessary to mitigate the freefall!

Judy,

The spinning is because it is this bunch of ideological fools who are employing techniques we know they abhor as their pundit Norquist so aptly put it: "to get it [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."

And here they are many years later sticking their nationalizing fingers in the dam.

[Judy G. Russell]

The spinning is because it is this bunch of ideological fools who are employing techniques we know they abhor as their pundit Norquist so aptly put it: "to get it [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." And here they are many years later sticking their nationalizing fingers in the dam.Oh don't get me wrong: I understand that. But I still think he'd be upset more than their "get it down to the drowning size" philosophy got us to this state.

[ndebord]

No, I think he would agree that bthe means to mitigate the freefall are all we have. Where he IS spinning in his grave is over the fact that it became necessary to mitigate the freefall!

Judy,

Well we have seen the enemy and it is us. The Democracts failed to live up to their promise to allow bankruptcy judges to rewrite mortgages. Thus this bailout is purely a Wall Street putsch and the housing market, I think, will continue to contract and foreclosures will go on and on and on.

Let's wait to see if the credit market unfreezes this week.

[Judy G. Russell]

The Democracts failed to live up to their promise to allow bankruptcy judges to rewrite mortgages.The Democrats don't have the votes by themselves to pass anything, and won't be fooled into providing all the votes for anything as unpopular as this bailout is. So this is a damned-if-we-do-damned-if-we-don't deal.

[ndebord]

The Democrats don't have the votes by themselves to pass anything, and won't be fooled into providing all the votes for anything as unpopular as this bailout is. So this is a damned-if-we-do-damned-if-we-don't deal.

Judy,

It's the damned-if-we-do part that scares me. (Commodity prices are dropping and if that continues... Katie bar the door.)

http://www.bloomberg.com/index.html?Intro=intro3

[Judy G. Russell]

(Commodity prices are dropping and if that continues... Katie bar the door.)Everything is dropping, except fears.

[ndebord]

Everything is dropping, except fears.

Judy,

Let's see how we survive this one day holiday and let's hope the hotheads in the Congress (& that prez candidate) fold their tents and come together in support of a plan... any plan.

[Judy G. Russell]

Let's see how we survive this one day holiday and let's hope the hotheads in the Congress (& that prez candidate) fold their tents and come together in support of a plan... any plan.I suspect some of the Republicans will point to the gain on Wall Street today as proof that "the fundamentals of our economy are sound"...

[ktinkel]

I suspect some of the Republicans will point to the gain on Wall Street today as proof that "the fundamentals of our economy are sound"...It is not only the ultra-conservative Republicans who are resisting this top-down bailout; some liberal Democrats are taking a similar tack.

Watching Rachel Maddow tonight, interviewing first a Republic from Texas and then Dennis Kucinich (no groans, please), both of whom voted against the bailout plan yesterday, I was struck by how much sense they made (they do not agree on the details, of course). But for different reasons neither want to give money to the bankers.

I will be interested to see what plan they can come up with, actually. This business of giving money to the people who created this mess sticks in many craws, on both sides of the political spectrum.

Neither of these guys think “the fundamentals of the economy are sound,” by the way. Far from it.

[Mike]

This business of giving money to the people who created this mess sticks in many craws, on both sides of the political spectrum.
It bothers the hell out of me, too.

The shareholders; e.g., the owners of those banks, should be the ones who lose, not the American tax payers.

I don't own any banks. I pay all my bills. WTF should I have to pay for others' risky gambles?

[Judy G. Russell]

This business of giving money to the people who created this mess sticks in many craws, on both sides of the political spectrum.I have a lot of problems with this, but I'm not sure what else can be done, and how long we have to do it to prevent a very deep, very long recession. I'm afraid we have already permanently damaged the financial system and the role of Wall Street in the world financial markets, with very dire consequences for our future. Dubai is very anxious (and ready and willing and able) to take over as the financial capital of the world, and frankly we have given the rest of the world no reason whatsoever to continue to view the US as the financial engine of the world. My gut tells me this whole "let the market do as it will" debacle will come to haunt us in very profound ways.

[ktinkel]

I have a lot of problems with this, but I'm not sure what else can be done, and how long we have to do it to prevent a very deep, very long recession. I'm afraid we have already permanently damaged the financial system and the role of Wall Street in the world financial markets, with very dire consequences for our future. Dubai is very anxious (and ready and willing and able) to take over as the financial capital of the world, and frankly we have given the rest of the world no reason whatsoever to continue to view the US as the financial engine of the world. My gut tells me this whole "let the market do as it will" debacle will come to haunt us in very profound ways.Some web wag has been circulating a proposal since the AIG bailout — he suggests that the government divvy up the $85 billion used for that and instead of buying out AIG send $425,000grants to every citizen over 18 in the U.S. He figures people would pay off mortgages, send kids to college, start new businesses, and so on.

That is wacky, but I’m not positive it is hugely more wacky than having some Wall Street guy organize a giveaway to a bunch of Wall Street guys, either.

[On soapbox]

What infuriates me is the method Congress has arrived at this plan. Handed a 3-page scheme by Paulsen, they started tinkering with it. They should have sat down with more than leadership — some rank-and-file members should have been included, a few academic economists, governors, even mayors — to determine what they think about the problem and how they would suggest solving it. A free-for-all? You bet. Would take time? Yep.

They should also have begun to explain how this mess will affect all of us. But they figured they could work it out in a hurry (like the way we got into the Iraq war), and ram it through.

Wonder how long it will take to pass a bill at the rate they are now going? People (quite reasonably) feel disenfranchised and used. In the end citizen consumers pay for everything, but this is a big bite.

[Off soapbox]

[sidney]

he suggests that the government divvy up the $85 billion used for that and instead of buying out AIG send $425,000grants to every citizen over 18 in the U.S

I saw that. The only problem with it is that he did the math wrong and it is only $425 per person :)

[ktinkel]

I saw that. The only problem with it is that he did the math wrong and it is only $425 per person :)I saw that too. Even the big $700 billion payoff wouldn’t be enough. But the amount doesn’t really matter — it was the sort of unnatural act that would never happen in this world. (Besides, we have already been “given” a shopping incentive handout, right?)

Still — an entertaining idea. Elegant, even.

[ktinkel]

It bothers the hell out of me, too.

The shareholders; e.g., the owners of those banks, should be the ones who lose, not the American tax payers.

I don't own any banks. I pay all my bills. WTF should I have to pay for others' risky gambles?Because they were gambling with our money, and losing their bets.

Or, more accurately, just making enough to pay themselves.

Remember the S&L scandals in Bush Sr.’s administration? One of his sons (Neil) was implicated in that one, and Senator McCain got caught up in the Keating Five at the end of the mess, but was exonerated of serious wrong-doing (slapped on the wrist for stupidity instead). The S&L deal appears to have been a dress rehearsal for this mess. We-the-people paid for that too, and the perps got off easy. They probably figured it would work out well this time, too.

Unfortunately, in both cases the economy was left in a shambles, and the taxpayers got to bail it out.

I think it is time for a big roar of Never Again! from American citizens.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

I saw that. The only problem with it is that he did the math wrong and it is only $425 per person :)I guess he used a British "billion."

[ndebord]

I suspect some of the Republicans will point to the gain on Wall Street today as proof that "the fundamentals of our economy are sound"...

Judy,

I don't care what the no-nothings on the right and the La-La luddites on the left say about the economy. Buffet got it right tonight on Charlie Rose.

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/10/01/1/an-exclusive-conversation-with-warren-buffett

The video is not yet up there, but in essence he said: America is having a heart attack and has collapsed on the floor. Now is not the time to argue about what is the best method to apply CPR.

[Judy G. Russell]

Wonder how long it will take to pass a bill at the rate they are now going? Well, the Senate voted today, with McCain and Obama both voting yes.

[ktinkel]

Well, the Senate voted today, with McCain and Obama both voting yes.Yep, as expected.

The rowdy crowd in the House will not even try until tomorrow, and then only if leadership is really sure of their numbers. They don’t want to have another humiliation like Tuesday’s.

I see that the citizens are getting a lot of “education” on the expected benefits (or, more to the point, threatened catastrophes) if they don’t support this. And some reps say their e-mail and phone calls from constituents have moderated a bit.

But the Senate bill tilts rather rightward; not sure what’s in it for the Dems who opposed the first one.

I do hear snide comments about this all being theater — cover for Congress people for the election. In that case it should swim through tomorrow.

[Judy G. Russell]

But the Senate bill tilts rather rightward; not sure what’s in it for the Dems who opposed the first one.Hard to believe in this day and age they're still trying to get tax cuts!!!

[ktinkel]

Hard to believe in this day and age they're still trying to get tax cuts!!!Well, it might be counted on to tie Dem hands when they try to set up their ambitious social programs next term.

[Judy G. Russell]

Well, it might be counted on to tie Dem hands when they try to set up their ambitious social programs next term.Could be, could be. This is surely an interesting time (isn't that a curse?).

[ktinkel]

Could be, could be. This is surely an interesting time (isn't that a curse?).There is a pretty much disproven Chinese saying to that effect. I usually like living in interesting times, but not this interesting!

[ndebord]

There is a pretty much disproven Chinese saying to that effect. I usually like living in interesting times, but not this interesting!

Kathleen,

The curse goes like this: "May you live in interesting times." I've heard it expressed many times by the elder members of my wife's family (HK), usually in reference to WWII. My Father-in-Law would never knowingly buy any product made in Japan.

[ktinkel]

Kathleen,

The curse goes like this: "May you live in interesting times." I've heard it expressed many times by the elder members of my wife's family (HK), usually in reference to WWII. My Father-in-Law would never knowingly buy any product made in Japan.I know the curse. But Chinese friends insist it is not really known in China.

From Wikipedia (not that it is the be-all and end-all, but it confirms what my friends have long insisted):
One possibility is that the above phrase is from the following Chinese saying "时势造英雄"(pin-yin:shi shi zao ying xiong), which means heroes(leaders) are made over turbulent times.
:
No known user of the English phrase has supplied the purported Chinese language original, and the Chinese language origin of the phrase, if it exists, has not been found, making its authenticity doubtful. One theory is that it may be related to the Chinese proverb, "It's better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period" (寧為太平犬，不做亂世人; pinyin: níng wéi tàipíng quǎn, bù zuò luànshì rén).[citation needed]
:
The saying has also been attributed to the fictional Chinese storyteller Kai Lung invented by the Edwardian, English author Ernest Bramah, though this too has yet to be documented.[1]
:
The Yale Book of Quotations gives a citation for the phrase “May you live in interesting times” as follows “American Society of International Law Proceedings vol. 33 (1939).” The Yale Book of Quotations also states that “No authentic Chinese saying to this effect has ever been found.” [2]


As for your father-in-law’s resistance to buying Japanese goods, that is certainly understandable. Not positive about the “interesting times” quote, though — but would love to hear more.

[Mike]

I think it is time for a big roar of Never Again! from American citizens.
And in 10-15 years, everyone will have forgotten, and we'll go through it yet one more time.

[ndebord]

I know the curse. But Chinese friends insist it is not really known in China....

No known user of the English phrase has supplied the purported Chinese language original, and the Chinese language origin of the phrase, if it exists, has not been found, making its authenticity doubtful. One theory is that it may be related to the Chinese proverb, "It's better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period" (寧為太平犬，不做亂世人; pinyin: níng wéi tàipíng quǎn, bù zuò luànshì rén).[citation needed]

Kathleen,

Whether it made the literature or not, it was repeated in family gatherings, but I would tend to believe the dog citation over everything else. Perhaps the family was dumbing it down for this "ghost."

[ktinkel]

Whether it made the literature or not, it was repeated in family gatherings, but I would tend to believe the dog citation over everything else. Perhaps the family was dumbing it down for this "ghost."Could happen. And anything can happen in translation from Chinese to English, which seem to have drastically different cultural reference points.

[ndebord]

Could happen. And anything can happen in translation from Chinese to English, which seem to have drastically different cultural reference points.

Kathleen,

You could say that again and FWIW, the cultural differences between Cantonese and Mandarin (my wife's family is long-time HK).

[Judy G. Russell]

And in 10-15 years, everyone will have forgotten, and we'll go through it yet one more time.Hey! I thought I was the resident pessimist here!

[ndebord]

And in 10-15 years, everyone will have forgotten, and we'll go through it yet one more time.

Mike,

You're too pessimstic. The rule of thumb, historically, is that the grandfather lives in the time of the Perfect Storm and the son remembers all too well and behaves himself, but the grandson, ah, the grandson. Knows nothing personally and does his own thing and once again it is a Perfect Storm. (To paraphrase baldly)

[Mike]

Hey! I thought I was the resident pessimist here!
You are. I'm just making my own predictions.

[Mike]

grandfather ... son ...grandson
Memories are shorter and things happen more quickly these days.

[ktinkel]

And in 10-15 years, everyone will have forgotten, and we'll go through it yet one more time.True. Well, not sure of the time frame, but people do lose the thread of history.

It’s like the way teenagers “invent” sex every generation.

[Judy G. Russell]

You are. I'm just making my own predictions.Okay, that's fair enough!

[Mike]

It’s like the way teenagers “invent” sex every generation.
Exactly.

[ndebord]

True. Well, not sure of the time frame, but people do lose the thread of history.

It’s like the way teenagers “invent” sex every generation.

This from Davos shows the hubris that floated the financial boat in the last decade.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a5JnfkstutpI&refer=home

[Judy G. Russell]

My grandfather was born in 1897 and told me in the early 70s that I would live long enough to see another Great Depression. That old saw about the grandchildren forgetting the hardscrabble lessons learned by their grandparents has come true.My aunt recently said something that sure resonated with me. "We're lucky," she said. "We grew up poor. Unlike most people today, we know how to survive this sort of thing." I think she's right...

[ndebord]

My aunt recently said something that sure resonated with me. "We're lucky," she said. "We grew up poor. Unlike most people today, we know how to survive this sort of thing." I think she's right...

Judy,

I was lucky to have my Gramps from 13 mos on, I spent every summer with him for a month or two right up until my junior year in HS.

[Bill Hirst]

[quote=ktinkel;48221
It’s like the way teenagers “invent” sex every generation.[/quote]
We had to. Many of our generation's parents didn't teach us. Maybe they believed if we didn't know, we wouldn't do it.

-Bill

[Judy G. Russell]

I was lucky to have my Gramps from 13 mos on, I spent every summer with him for a month or two right up until my junior year in HS.My grandmother lived to be nearly 97 years old. Didn't have central heat in her farmhouse. Only had running water or indoor plumbing after she was 80. Grew most of her own food and never ran out of canned goods all winter. We all learned from her. Thank heavens.

[ndebord]

My grandmother lived to be nearly 97 years old. Didn't have central heat in her farmhouse. Only had running water or indoor plumbing after she was 80. Grew most of her own food and never ran out of canned goods all winter. We all learned from her. Thank heavens.

Judy,

We had similar experiences. I know how to can goods from farms, as I spent a few months on two: a pig farm in Missouri and a good old-fashioned corn and animal farm in Illinois. Don't much care for growing (or killing) my own food ever since. Did shoot a few deer in my youth, but wasn't serious about it. My brother, otoh, kept a freezer in his basement and every hunting season he went out the day before the season started and shot the deer he had his eye on. In those days, the "deer" police looked the other way when locals did what locals had to do. Lots of people had venizon in their freezers (Michigan).

(My brother also loved to fish and dragged me along for day-long "adventures on various lakes and streams in Michigan. Catching fish at 5 to 6 am cured me of the sport. Sticking around to fish the other side of the lake (all day long) as the sun moved was pure torture.

P.S. My idea of killing food these days is to point a something in the fish tank at the HK supermarket on 45th St in Elmhurst Queens and have it properly dispatched for my eating pleasure!

[Judy G. Russell]

I spent a few months on two: a pig farm in Missouri and a good old-fashioned corn and animal farm in Illinois. Don't much care for growing (or killing) my own food ever since.But we could do it if we had to. Most people wouldn't have a clue.

[ndebord]

But we could do it if we had to. Most people wouldn't have a clue.

Judy,

I plead Early Dementia.

;-)

[ktinkel]

We had to. Many of our generation's parents didn't teach us. Maybe they believed if we didn't know, we wouldn't do it.Perhaps so. That seems to be the basis for arguing against sex education in the schools.

My family never talked about money, sex, death, or divorce. The latter two omissions could cause embarrassment at family affairs, so we often got a summary before a reunion, wedding, funeral, etc.

People are so strange.