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Jeff
September 4th, 2008, 12:49 PM
I've had a Classic account since 1987 so I'm a tad familiar with how CIS bills, specifically at the end of each month. (I keep a cheap version of the account for dialup backup to Comcast's cable screwups.)

My Visa account shows a charge at the end of August to be double the monthly amount. After finally finding someone in Bombay who I could actually understand I was told that my account is now suddenly "prepay". IOW, that double charge is for both August past, and September to come.

If I was a greedy bastar^H^H beancounter I'd do the same; maximum income prior to shutdown. I think they're planning, you should too.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 4th, 2008, 03:28 PM
If I was a greedy bastar^H^H beancounter I'd do the same; maximum income prior to shutdown. I think they're planning, you should too.Hmmmmm...

Mike
September 5th, 2008, 01:53 AM
IOW, that double charge is for both August past, and September to come.
I thought the accounts always have been "prepay."

Unfortunately, I no longer have the records from the 80s to see how the first few billings were done.

I just checked, and my Visa was hit the same way.

fhaber
September 5th, 2008, 09:58 AM
As though a bump from $3 to $6 for a few-odd-thousand diehards will help TW's stock price.

"Never attribute to malice what is actually the native grasping avarice of some random bizschool pup."

Jeff
September 5th, 2008, 12:26 PM
I thought the accounts always have been "prepay."

Unfortunately, I no longer have the records from the 80s to see how the first few billings were done.

I just checked, and my Visa was hit the same way.

No the old Classic accounts have never been prepay, because the per minute usage charges could never be known in advance. The much more recent "all you can eat" may be prepay, because then there's no reason to wait. Mine had never been, but now suddenly is, "prepay".

As I read the sounds of silence, there will be no CIS on 1/1/09. At least I'm preparing for that.

- Jeff

Dodi Schultz
September 5th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Jeff, WHAT "per minute" charge? My $9.95/mo. for CIS classic has no time limit.

--DS

Judy G. Russell
September 5th, 2008, 04:50 PM
Jeff, WHAT "per minute" charge? My $9.95/mo. for CIS classic has no time limit.CServe had, and I believe still has, some accounts where you pay a small fee ($2.95 rings a bell in my memory) for a short amount of time (two hours?) and then usage fees if you went over the time limit. It is/was a good deal for Tapcis mail users, who rarely if ever exceed the time.

Mike
September 6th, 2008, 02:05 AM
... the per minute usage charges could never be known in advance.
I may be confusing it with something else, but I thought it was "monthly fee in advance, hourly charges after the fact," when CompuServe changed from the "we'll just charge you for every minute you're online" model, in 1993, I believe.

Then again, my account has changed billing plans several times, so it may have changed from "prepay" to "postpay" at one of those points.

Mike
September 6th, 2008, 02:07 AM
Not to mention the original accounts, pre-1993, always had per-minute charges, regardless of the amount of time spent online.

Jeff
September 6th, 2008, 01:13 PM
CServe had, and I believe still has, some accounts where you pay a small fee ($2.95 rings a bell in my memory) for a short amount of time (two hours?) and then usage fees if you went over the time limit. It is/was a good deal for Tapcis mail users, who rarely if ever exceed the time.

I changed to the $2.95 (for 1 hour, more is extra) to keep dialup backup. That is good as Comcast failed for 7 hours last Thursday, and I could still dialup to do the several minutes of what I needed to do on the 'net. That charge has always been postpay; at the end of each month for that month. That's what they just changed to prepay and thereby billed me for two months. Something is rotten in the state of Columbus.

- Jeff

Jeff
September 6th, 2008, 01:24 PM
I may be confusing it with something else, but I thought it was "monthly fee in advance, hourly charges after the fact," when CompuServe changed from the "we'll just charge you for every minute you're online" model, in 1993, I believe.

Then again, my account has changed billing plans several times, so it may have changed from "prepay" to "postpay" at one of those points.

I did not change my account in any way. CIS did it without asking or announcing; postpay August, prepay September, all at once. That is not nice, but it does seem to be an omen.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 6th, 2008, 01:44 PM
Something is rotten in the state of Columbus.And this is a surprise how?

Mike
September 7th, 2008, 01:53 AM
I did not change my account in any way.
I haven't changed it recently. However, when I started with it in the early 1980s, I was on the regular plan at that time--no monthly fee, just per-minute charges (that varied by time-of-day and baud rate).

In 1993 or so, I changed it to the $9.95/monthly (I think) plan, which included five hours and a small number of emails. At that time, I was under the impression the $9.95 was pre-pay, and any usage charges were post-pay. At some point a year or two later, I acquired another account, and I changed my personal account to some other billing plan (I forget its cost), and a few years later, went to the $2.95/month plan (with one hour).

I know that last switch took a few months, with several charges and credits on my card, before billing stabilized.

In any event, I was hit with the same charge as you, and with the explanation given to you, I don't think I'm going to waste my time worrying about it. If I get another charge, however, ...

Dodi Schultz
September 7th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Yes, I still use TAPCIS (mainly) for e-mail (I also pick up mail, sometimes, via Mail2Web)--but my $9.95 per month covers ALL online access (including browser use), for as many online hours as I like.

--DS

Jeff
September 8th, 2008, 12:12 PM
In any event, I was hit with the same charge as you, and with the explanation given to you, I don't think I'm going to waste my time worrying about it. If I get another charge, however, ...

I just registered an email domain, and am busy stumbling through setting it up so it will be ready. And I can get cheap dialup 'net backup from a local ISP. I may not wait for CIS to leave me.

Judy G. Russell
September 8th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I just registered an email domain, and am busy stumbling through setting it up so it will be ready. And I can get cheap dialup 'net backup from a local ISP. I may not wait for CIS to leave me.Frankly, that's the best idea for everybody. Having your own email address that can't be taken away (as long as you remember to renew the domain registration!) is really the way to go.

Mike
September 9th, 2008, 01:25 AM
I may not wait for CIS to leave me.
None of us can guess what the future may bring, but I have my backup plans, too. <g>

Judy G. Russell
September 9th, 2008, 09:38 AM
None of us can guess what the future may bring, but I have my backup plans, too. <g>That's good!

Jeff
September 9th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Frankly, that's the best idea for everybody. Having your own email address that can't be taken away (as long as you remember to renew the domain registration!) is really the way to go.

Actually I'm not really sure what I've done. But after more than 10 years of using their free mail2web for various purposes I selected them to do the domain, so I now have 50 possible emailboxes at my "lastname.us" address. They have been really patient, but then they are Canadian. Apparently now that I have, they have, my registered domain there's all sorts of stuff I can do besides email, for a tad more money if I want to.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 9th, 2008, 11:08 PM
They have been really patient, but then they are Canadian.Patience is a Canadian national trait?

Jeff
September 10th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Patience is a Canadian national trait?

They take pity on US, doncha know?

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM
They take pity on US, doncha know?We need it, eh!

ndebord
September 10th, 2008, 09:30 PM
Patience is a Canadian national trait?

Judy,

It's all those wide-open spaces, don't ya know. They (not us) put teeth in that old description of frontier man: laconic.


;-)

Judy G. Russell
September 11th, 2008, 10:37 AM
It's all those wide-open spaces, don't ya know. They (not us) put teeth in that old description of frontier man: laconic.They have all those wide open COLD spaces, y'mean.

ndebord
September 12th, 2008, 08:26 AM
They have all those wide open COLD spaces, y'mean.

Judy,

I forgot: you're a southern goil at heart! <g,d&r>

As the northwest passage is now open, perhaps cold is now a relative term!


What's the difference between a poor boy and a rich boy in Copper Harbor Michigan?

<wait for it>

















A poor boy has snow shoes in the garage. A rich boy skis!


(Where do UPers go for a tropical vacation? Buffalo!)

Judy G. Russell
September 12th, 2008, 10:16 AM
I forgot: you're a southern goil at heart! <g,d&r>
As the northwest passage is now open, perhaps cold is now a relative term!I'm a warmblooded goil! And yes, cold is relative: anything below 75 degrees is cold.

ndebord
September 12th, 2008, 07:20 PM
I'm a warmblooded goil! And yes, cold is relative: anything below 75 degrees is cold.

Judy,

Ah, well, anything above 55 degrees is hot! Today was nice for a short sleeved golf shirt!

<VBG>

Judy G. Russell
September 12th, 2008, 11:03 PM
Today was nice for a short sleeved golf shirt!The high today was in the 70s!

ndebord
September 19th, 2008, 10:59 AM
The high today was in the 70s!

Picky...picky. OK, today is perfect for that golf shirt I'm wearing! It was very pleasant at a quarter of eight this morning when I was shopping at Jetro!

<g,d&r>

Judy G. Russell
September 19th, 2008, 01:19 PM
Picky...picky. OK, today is perfect for that golf shirt I'm wearing! It was very pleasant at a quarter of eight this morning when I was shopping at Jetro!<g,d&r>Today is very nice indeed. I love spring and fall weather, which is (IMO) the only social redeeming value whatsoever of a climate that includes winter.

ndebord
September 21st, 2008, 10:02 PM
Today is very nice indeed. I love spring and fall weather, which is (IMO) the only social redeeming value whatsoever of a climate that includes winter.

Judy,

Couldn't agree more with that, so long as you change that phrase to say climate that includes summer. I'll take winter any old time, but Bermuda Highs and hummmiddity, nah.

Judy G. Russell
September 21st, 2008, 11:13 PM
I'll take winter any old time, but Bermuda Highs and hummmiddity, nah.Oh no... I'm a summer baby. I love summer.

Mike
September 22nd, 2008, 04:23 AM
I love summer.
Ditto. But I hate winter even more, so I live where the winters aren't too cold, but the summers don't get particularly hot.

If I'm in the mind, I can drive to colder places in the winter (hah!) or warmer places in the summer (which we do regularly--we have friends 20 minutes away with a pool, and the temperatures to make it usable!).

Judy G. Russell
September 22nd, 2008, 09:39 AM
Ditto. But I hate winter even more, so I live where the winters aren't too cold, but the summers don't get particularly hot. If I'm in the mind, I can drive to colder places in the winter (hah!) or warmer places in the summer (which we do regularly--we have friends 20 minutes away with a pool, and the temperatures to make it usable!).If I'd had half a brain when I was thinking of going to law school, I'd have made a move then. Once I was half way established it was too late (I am never ever taking another bar exam!). And even when I retire I'm almost undoubtedly going to be stuck in an area with cold winters, just because that's where my family has sunk its roots. Sigh...

ktinkel
September 22nd, 2008, 11:21 AM
Couldn't agree more with that, so long as you change that phrase to say climate that includes summer. I'll take winter any old time, but Bermuda Highs and hummmiddity, nah.I’m with you on that. These past few days have been great. I guess it will rain today, and may get a bit humid, but I love being able to get the real blankets and sleep with the window open at night. It is supposed to be 57 degrees tonight. Yum.

Judy G. Russell
September 22nd, 2008, 02:18 PM
I love being able to get the real blankets and sleep with the window open at night. It is supposed to be 57 degrees tonight. Yum.Too noisy on my street for open windows, I'm afraid. I end up putting the air conditioner on fan-only for the white noise.

ktinkel
September 22nd, 2008, 04:17 PM
Too noisy on my street for open windows, I'm afraid. I end up putting the air conditioner on fan-only for the white noise.Better than AC, anyway.

It is surprisingly noisy here as well, but I have gotten used to it. I-95 is only about a third of a mile away, and that is a grade leading up to the bridge over the river. We hear the downshifting of trucks around the clock (except when there is a jam, when it is mercifully silent).

We used to get a racket from the nightclub across the river, but they are trying to expand, so made a deal with the town of Stratford — no more live bands or karaoke that could be heard outside. It has been blessedly quiet there for about a year. Sort of dreading the sounds of construction when they start to build their condos and the 40-bay marina on the riverside (but maybe the economy is slowing them down).

Judy G. Russell
September 22nd, 2008, 05:51 PM
It has been blessedly quiet there for about a year. Sort of dreading the sounds of construction when they start to build their condos and the 40-bay marina on the riverside (but maybe the economy is slowing them down).Ooooh... yeah, after a year of quiet, construction would be annoying... except that they're not likely to be working at night!

ktinkel
September 22nd, 2008, 08:05 PM
Ooooh... yeah, after a year of quiet, construction would be annoying... except that they're not likely to be working at night!I hope not. But these guys have astounded us by their audacity many times, and night work may save them a few shekels. :(

Mike
September 23rd, 2008, 03:33 AM
...where my family has sunk its roots.
Even big trees can be transplanted.

Judy G. Russell
September 23rd, 2008, 04:17 PM
I hope not. But these guys have astounded us by their audacity many times, and night work may save them a few shekels. :(I would call the police every time they worked at night. Every time.

Judy G. Russell
September 23rd, 2008, 04:18 PM
Even big trees can be transplanted.Not in my lifetime, not this family. Darn it!!!

Mike
September 24th, 2008, 03:23 AM
Not in my lifetime, not this family. Darn it!!!
They don't know what they're missing!

Judy G. Russell
September 24th, 2008, 11:12 AM
They don't know what they're missing!I know... I know... I keep trying to convince 'em, but...

fhaber
September 24th, 2008, 05:10 PM
You've totally lost your New Yawk chops, Kathleen. I wake up only when the fire engines stop within 300' of the building lobby. My neurons have calibrated themselves to ignore the Doppler cacophony of a mere five-engine, two-chief-car passby. They don't even fibrilllate when three ambulances pass, perhaps marking the demise of someone I know (it's happened).

(My street is quiet as a tomb at night, except when every emergency vehicle uses it as a corridor to everywhere, because there's no traffic, and it's a canyon, which is a perfect acoustic transmission line, and loudly echos their compositional efforts on the limited but moderately amusing siren-synth that's now fitted to everything with four wheels, bringing a smile to their little subhuman pinhead mouths, and.... grr.)

(I still wouldn't live in Fairbanks (g).)

Judy G. Russell
September 24th, 2008, 09:48 PM
(I still wouldn't live in Fairbanks (g).)(I wouldn't either. It's cold there!)

ndebord
September 25th, 2008, 07:55 AM
I would call the police every time they worked at night. Every time.

Judy,

What was that developer's name who tore down a building in midtown during the wee hours of the morning? Macklow, or something similar? (sans permit of course... IF I recall properly, he had to meet some kind of deadline and so proceeded to demolish the building before the city would have stopped him)

ktinkel
September 25th, 2008, 09:41 AM
I would call the police every time they worked at night. Every time.That is what we did when their music was thundering into our house at night.

But there is a problem with that solution: the nightclub is across the river — not only in a different town but a different county. Their police do not answer to us, and except for some occasions (usually when there was a brawl outside the club), they pretty much ignored us.

Then we complained to our officials, thinking they should stand up for us with the officials of the other side, but they insisted it was not their responsibility.

By “us” I mean the 50 or so residents on this side of the river who were suffering from the nightclub’s goings-on. Not enough to get anyone interested, I guess.

But yes, philosophically, we do support reporting infractions of the law. :(

Judy G. Russell
September 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM
What was that developer's name who tore down a building in midtown during the wee hours of the morning? Macklow, or something similar? (sans permit of course... IF I recall properly, he had to meet some kind of deadline and so proceeded to demolish the building before the city would have stopped him)Sounds like an average construction job in some partes of the city, no?

Judy G. Russell
September 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
they insisted it was not their responsibility.Doncha just love that kind of response? Grrrrrrr!!!

ktinkel
September 26th, 2008, 09:44 AM
You've totally lost your New Yawk chops, Kathleen. I wake up only when the fire engines stop within 300' of the building lobby.That is true, somewhat (last time I tried to walk across 42nd Street I actually gave way — never used to let that happen!)

We lived over the Sixth Avenue subway line for years, and adapted to the rumbling and vibration of its passage. And here we live with the constant noise of trucks gearing down on I-95, the coarse rattle and horn of both Amtrak and New Haven Railroad, and fire engines from the station near us.

But I would suggest that karaoke, drunken shouts, and really crappy music on giant speakers aimed almost directly at my bed are a different matter altogether. Even New Yorkers complain about that stuff. (Part of the issue is the implied violence — the police have had to come to that joint in great numbers several times. I am also really fond of their loud hailers!)

(My street is quiet as a tomb at night, except when every emergency vehicle uses it as a corridor to everywhere, because there's no traffic, and it's a canyon, which is a perfect acoustic transmission line …Better than a river? Also a canyon. Unimpeded by foliage or other baffle. Sound is notoriously efficient across water.

Anyway, I won’t contest your notion that I have become an autiditory wuss — may well be true. :o

ktinkel
September 26th, 2008, 09:46 AM
(I wouldn't either. It's cold there!)I wouldn’t live in Fairbanks, either. It’s boring there! <g>

Judy G. Russell
September 26th, 2008, 10:19 AM
I wouldn’t live in Fairbanks, either. It’s boring there! <g>Hey you could always move to Wasila!

ktinkel
September 26th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Hey you could always move to Wasila!Yeah, right. Why didn’t I think of that? :confused:

ndebord
September 26th, 2008, 11:08 AM
Sounds like an average construction job in some partes of the city, no?

Judy,

It was a big deal way back when he did it. Don't recall any of the details.

Jeff
September 26th, 2008, 01:44 PM
And here we live with the constant noise of trucks gearing down on I-95...

They are not gearing down, Kathleen. That would be silent to you or anyone within about 100 feet, besides which no trucker has known how downshift at speed for many, many years. You are hearing these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake

Note "Legislation" and "...a loud chattering or machine gun noise..."

So far as I know their use is banned, on pain of a fine of $1,000 or so, everywhere in Colorado. I haven't heard them while on I 70 downhill on either side of the Continental Divide, or on the down side of any other mountain pass for that matter.

There is no reason to put up with that jake brake noise, none whatsoever. This is an election year.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
September 26th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Yeah, right. Why didn’t I think of that? :confused:Your name isn't Sarah and you have a brain?

Judy G. Russell
September 26th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Don't recall any of the details.The story of my life these days... and probably better off that way, I suppose!

ktinkel
September 26th, 2008, 04:52 PM
It was a big deal way back when he did it. Don't recall any of the details.I remember that — maybe back in the mid-80s?

Of course, Manhattan developers have always played tricks with zoning and building codes. We must all have seen buildings stripped down to a few columns for what could then be considered a renovation rather than new construction.

Bill Hirst
September 27th, 2008, 01:25 AM
I remember that — maybe back in the mid-80s?

Of course, Manhattan developers have always played tricks with zoning and building codes. We must all have seen buildings stripped down to a few columns for what could then be considered a renovation rather than new construction.
That's like the story of the old lumberjack who used one axe for twenty years. He replaced the handle four times and the head twice.

-Bill

Mike
September 30th, 2008, 12:52 AM
I keep trying to convince 'em, but...
Suggest they make a visit here.

Judy G. Russell
September 30th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Suggest they make a visit here.There is the minor little matter of the cost of living out your way, plus the deep roots back here. darn it all.

Mike
October 1st, 2008, 02:56 AM
...cost of living out your way, plus the deep roots back here.
I certainly agree with the former. We doubt we'll be retiring here in the Bay Area. There's a good chance we'll retire in Sacramento, since we have property there, but unless a miracle occurs, we won't be able to stay in this house when we retire. (But when we sell it, we should make a significant profit off which to live!)

But for the roots... if everyone moves, would the roots even matter?

Judy G. Russell
October 1st, 2008, 09:00 AM
But for the roots... if everyone moves, would the roots even matter?Keep in mind just how many people -- and how many generations -- we're talking about here! We still have large numbers of living aunts and uncles, all headquartered in Virginia as well. So as much as I'd like to think we might be able to convince folks to pick up and go, I don't see it happening in my lifetime. The real question I'm going to have to deal with is whether I will be comfortable living in an area of the state which is basically red. If not, I'd be better off finding myself a place at a beach.

Then again with the financial crisis as bad as it is, I probably don't have to worry about what I'll do after I retire for a very very very long time... sigh...

Mike
October 5th, 2008, 04:22 AM
Keep in mind just how many people -- and how many generations -- we're talking about here!
I forget your family is like bunnies!

Then again with the financial crisis as bad as it is, I probably don't have to worry about what I'll do after I retire for a very very very long time... sigh...
I hear you! I don't think we'll be retiring early, unless property values start to rise again.

We did get a nice letter in the mail this week, indicating that our property has been revalued at $95K less than what we paid. We knew the value is lower, but at least we'll be paying lower property taxes for the next year!

Judy G. Russell
October 5th, 2008, 05:13 PM
I forget your family is like bunnies!Yep. Too #$$@$# many people!

I don't think we'll be retiring early, unless property values start to rise again. We did get a nice letter in the mail this week, indicating that our property has been revalued at $95K less than what we paid. We knew the value is lower, but at least we'll be paying lower property taxes for the next year!Don't be so sure. The government still needs the same amount of money to run, so while your valuation went down, your tax rate may very well go up. (That's sure the way it works here!)

ktinkel
October 5th, 2008, 08:19 PM
We did get a nice letter in the mail this week, indicating that our property has been revalued at $95K less than what we paid. We knew the value is lower, but at least we'll be paying lower property taxes for the next year!That never happens here. That is, market values may decline but never the taxes.

And, besides, if the value declined, then the mill rate would increase. One way or another, we would pay about 130% of what we thought we should!

Mike
October 6th, 2008, 02:09 AM
Don't be so sure. The government still needs the same amount of money to run, so while your valuation went down, your tax rate may very well go up. (That's sure the way it works here!)
The tax rate cannot go up, per Prop 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_13), passed in the late 70s. [The article doesn't make it clear the tax basis for all properties is the sale price.] A jurisdiction can place a tax item on the ballot for the voters, but if the voters don't pass it, then the tax doesn't change.

Prop 8 amended Prop 13 to account for declines in property values, such as the current situation. In a normal market, however, the Assessor can raise the base assessed value by 2% a year, but that's all.

So, yes, tax revenues will go down, and jurisdictions will need to re-evaluate income and spending. This may be a good thing.

Mike
October 6th, 2008, 02:11 AM
That never happens here. That is, market values may decline but never the taxes.
Thanks to CA taxpayers' revolts in the 1970s, it does work that way here!

ktinkel
October 6th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Thanks to CA taxpayers' revolts in the 1970s, it does work that way here!Ah. That’s true. Prop 13, wasn’t it? Nasty fight over that one. Does everyone love the results?

Judy G. Russell
October 6th, 2008, 10:54 AM
So, yes, tax revenues will go down, and jurisdictions will need to re-evaluate income and spending. This may be a good thing.Not when garbage collectors, police, fire, and other services still have to be provided and costs are going up. Towns out there may end up cutting INTO the bone, not TO it.

Mike
October 7th, 2008, 02:42 AM
Not when garbage collectors, police, fire, and other services still have to be provided and costs are going up. Towns out there may end up cutting INTO the bone, not TO it.
OTOH, many of the cities and towns around here waste a lot of money. Reducing revenues means they need to re-evaluate.

We know that Oakland is absolutely horrendous regarding spending. Quite a few City employees spend money on travel and entertainment as if they're drawing from a bottomless well. And these are people with salaries two to three times what I ever could hope to earn.

Mike
October 7th, 2008, 02:45 AM
Ah. That’s true. Prop 13, wasn’t it? Nasty fight over that one. Does everyone love the results?

Yup, Prop 13.

The sentiment tips the scale toward liking the results, but there are people who have beefs.

We're a bit bothered by it because as housing prices skyrocketed, the assessed values did likewise. However, since we can get a reduction in the assessed value due to Prop 8, we're not as bothered as we were!

ktinkel
October 7th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Yup, Prop 13.

The sentiment tips the scale toward liking the results, but there are people who have beefs.

We're a bit bothered by it because as housing prices skyrocketed, the assessed values did likewise. However, since we can get a reduction in the assessed value due to Prop 8, we're not as bothered as we were!Here, housing values always rise with the market, and tax rates always rise, too, which has an impact on the mill rate.

We had a revaluation at the end of 2006, not far from the peak in market prices, so we are paying taxes as if it were still boom time. A realtor friend says there may be mass re-revaluations in this state, even though we have no Prop 13. Have to see how that plays out. The towns are already crying poverty, perhaps with good reason.

earler
October 7th, 2008, 12:24 PM
Prop 13 was a disaster for public services in the state of california. Communities were no longer able to provide essential public services and the whole california school system began its descent so that it is now little better than florida's. Companies with their offices and factories were quite happy since it essentially froze their tax liabilities. The same for people who already owned their homes. For new arrivals it was another matter.

Prop 13 began the era of government by referendum, making it more and more difficult for the legislature and the governor to do their jobs. Government through referendum is a disaster. It is populism to the extreme.