PDA

View Full Version : RAID? Back-up? Both?


Judy G. Russell
July 30th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Okay... I'm still working on the specs for my new system ("dither" is my middle name) and I'm confused by this RAID stuff. What I store, mostly, is photographs and other digital images. I absolutely need to know the stuff is gonna be there when I need it. So do I go RAID? Just a good backup system? Both?

Mike Landi
July 30th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Okay... I'm still working on the specs for my new system ("dither" is my middle name) and I'm confused by this RAID stuff. What I store, mostly, is photographs and other digital images. I absolutely need to know the stuff is gonna be there when I need it. So do I go RAID? Just a good backup system? Both?
Have you looked at online backups like Mozy?

I backup nightly to a USB hard drive and to Mozy. Once a year a burn a DVD of the past year's photos and save the disc in a fire safe.

....I hope that covers my butt!


FWIW, RAID can give you great performance and backup....on a server. For a home network, I don't think it is worth it. A good USB backup drive would be better. The hard part is finding backup software that works (most), is reliable (about half) and is not wicked expensive (not many!)

Mike
July 31st, 2008, 02:09 AM
RAID will lower the chances that you'll have trouble with the disk storage in your computer, but it won't eliminate it entirely. (At my last employer, we had several RAID farms, and they were less reliable than the single, cheap drives in our notebook computers!)

I have a couple of external hard drives, to which I alternate backups. Once I'm employed again, I plan to keep one at the office (as an "offsite" backup).

Judy G. Russell
July 31st, 2008, 11:05 AM
Have you looked at online backups like Mozy? I backup nightly to a USB hard drive and to Mozy. Once a year a burn a DVD of the past year's photos and save the disc in a fire safe. ....I hope that covers my butt!I have too much stuff realistically to make online storage workable (at least until I get my own personal super-duper-high-speed net connection!) -- I burned up a third of a 750Gb external HD just on the Africa photos. (I have to learn to train myself to delete the total loser shots -- right now, I'm still a photographic packrat, figuring I may be able to salvage something from that shot if I work at it long enough...). What I think I'm going to end up doing is keeping an external HD at the office for safety's sake.

FWIW, RAID can give you great performance and backup....on a server. For a home network, I don't think it is worth it. A good USB backup drive would be better. The hard part is finding backup software that works (most), is reliable (about half) and is not wicked expensive (not many!)I'd settle for one that works, is easy to deal with, and is reliable, even if I have to spend to get it. Suggestions?

Judy G. Russell
July 31st, 2008, 11:06 AM
RAID will lower the chances that you'll have trouble with the disk storage in your computer, but it won't eliminate it entirely. (At my last employer, we had several RAID farms, and they were less reliable than the single, cheap drives in our notebook computers!) I have a couple of external hard drives, to which I alternate backups. Once I'm employed again, I plan to keep one at the office (as an "offsite" backup).Sounds like the backups are really the key here -- RAID isn't going to do that much for me.

Dan in Saint Louis
July 31st, 2008, 08:12 PM
RAID will lower the chances that you'll have trouble with the disk storage in your computerI don't think so. Unless it is a flavor raid that includes redundancy, the failure of any of the drives in the set could wreck the whole set.

RAID could be good for servers that have to dish out huge volumes of data in short times, but unless Judy plans to open several dozen high-res photos with one mouse click I think she is better of with a good back-up routine.

Judy G. Russell
July 31st, 2008, 10:37 PM
unless Judy plans to open several dozen high-res photos with one mouse click I think she is better of with a good back-up routine.Well, being able to open several (but not several dozen) would be nice!

sidney
July 31st, 2008, 11:13 PM
I don't think so. Unless it is a flavor raid that includes redundancy, the failure of any of the drives in the set could wreck the whole set

The whole point of using RAID as a backup strategy is to use a type that includes redundancy. RAID 0 increases throughput at the expense of greater probability of data loss from disk failure. You would only use that if high speed is what is important. Higher number RAID types provide improved protection against disk failure. I've mostly heard of people using RAID-5 when they want to use RAID instead of backup. Here (http://www.cuddletech.com/veritas/raidtheory/x31.html) is an explanation I found in plain language.

-- sidney

Mike
August 1st, 2008, 03:28 AM
The whole point of using RAID as a backup strategy is to use a type that includes redundancy.
Good point--I'd made that assumption! The article you linked is a good reference about the various types of RAID.

Mike
August 1st, 2008, 03:30 AM
Unless it is a flavor raid that includes redundancy, the failure of any of the drives in the set could wreck the whole set.
As Sidney suggested, I was thinking solely in terms of RAID5, which includes the redundancy (but in my practical experience, really wasn't more reliable).

Mike
August 1st, 2008, 03:32 AM
Sounds like the backups are really the key here -- RAID isn't going to do that much for me.
That's my opinion. 1 TB external drives are going for $180 in retail stores here, and I bet they're less when purchased online.

Mike Landi
August 1st, 2008, 08:28 AM
I have too much stuff realistically to make online storage workable (at least until I get my own personal super-duper-high-speed net connection!) -- I burned up a third of a 750Gb external HD just on the Africa photos.

I backup 22Gb with Mozy and it takes a few hours at night. No big deal. There is no limit to how much you can back up. Now, the first time it ran it took over a week. Once it had run once, it takes only a few hours a night. I've put 200MB of pix on my computer and it backups up over the evening.

Mozy, like most of the online backups, does a complicated compression algorithm on you computer and then sends the results to their servers. From that point on, it scans your computer and sends updates to their servers. The servers then process the updates. I won't even pretend to expain the math involved.

As for RAID, serial ATA drives are now very fast so I don't think about the performance as much. I guess if I was concerned about having huge amounts of space online, I'd look at a SAN solution. Right now, I don't have that need.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 1st, 2008, 07:21 PM
Now, the first time it ran it took over a week.Ouch! This morning my Acronis TrueImage backed up 276GB in 1 hr 27 min.

Mike Landi
August 2nd, 2008, 11:08 AM
Ouch! This morning my Acronis TrueImage backed up 276GB in 1 hr 27 min.
Like I said, the first time was long. Since then, it is an hour or so. Keep in mind that I had Mozy running in the background and I had it throttled to 1Mbsp max.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 2nd, 2008, 08:43 PM
I had Mozy running in the background and I had it throttled to 1Mbsp max.That would do it! But for the record, that 276GB was a FULL backup -- in fact, the first on a brand new HD.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2008, 08:45 AM
I've mostly heard of people using RAID-5 when they want to use RAID instead of backup.And that's what I was / am looking at. Your views on one versus the other? Or both?

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2008, 08:46 AM
That's my opinion. 1 TB external drives are going for $180 in retail stores here, and I bet they're less when purchased online.Yeah, I bought a 750Gb drive in June for $140.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2008, 08:47 AM
I backup 22Gb with Mozy and it takes a few hours at night.My backups would be a lot bigger than that...

fhaber
August 4th, 2008, 04:59 PM
If you need another opinion:

Motherboard RAID 1 is not to be trusted. I literally had black-screen, no boot, wet underwear on two quite ordinary drive failures. One was nVidia/AMD, one an Intel controller.*

$500 (and up) Adaptec PCie server RAID cards are a different story. Some Linux-based external RAID 1 boxes are OK.

The Dobro seems popular with photogs, but it's non-standard format, and needs an external second box to become NAS rather than USB/FW local to one computer. Advantages: very flexible and transparent expansion; uses any (SATA) drives you have lying around. Costly.

I vote for ordinary SATA and *two* external eSATA backup external drives, one kept off premises. And use *both* an image and a file-backup program.

As you expand, add more drives, in twos. Keep only the current working set on C:. eSATA is very fast; you can work to it with PS.

An online backup service is a good third backup for a limited volume of "selects," for most shooters.

*No message from the controller; no lights - just my heart fibrillating in a silent room. Removing the power plug from the bad drive instantly restored (single-drive) operation. The pair rebuilt normally with a new HD installed.

In one case, the bad drive was total toast. In another, SMART self-recovered a couple of bad blocks, and the drive now spins happily in a case as a test unit/untrusted_backup.

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2008, 05:57 PM
I vote for ordinary SATA and *two* external eSATA backup external drives, one kept off premises. And use *both* an image and a file-backup program.Thanks, Frank! What image and backup programs do you recommend?

fhaber
August 4th, 2008, 06:37 PM
Imaging: Acronis TI, when it isn't biting me. Shadow Protect Desktop when it is, and I feel rich ($70). I dally with the free ones from time to time, including several Linux live CDs that can image Windows stuff. (The Acronis "universal restore" CD (premium versions) is actually one of these Linux CDs.)

Files: DragonDrop from explorer, or xcopy, or xxcopy, or MS's Robocopy - all commandline. If you want GUI, there's Cobian (free, but watch out under Vista), and Second Copy.

Do try before you buy. And you're going to think this is crazy, but test restore. Buy a spare HD, replace the drive in your computer and cold-restore to it. Don't delude yourself. Borrow a drive from the builder, if you're cheap ($50-100), or use a new drive you're going to mount in one of those USB cases that you're going to buy RIGHT NOW, UNDER PAIN OF.. you get the idea.

Testing file restore is easier. You can do that blindfolded. And, pleasant surprise, modern image-backup programs **can restore selected files from the image container**. Since we humans goof far more often than the hardware, isn't that nice?

Judy G. Russell
August 4th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Imaging: Acronis TI, when it isn't biting me. Shadow Protect Desktop when it is, and I feel rich ($70). I dally with the free ones from time to time, including several Linux live CDs that can image Windows stuff. (The Acronis "universal restore" CD (premium versions) is actually one of these Linux CDs.)Okay. I own Shadow Protect Desktop (because I tried Acronis and it bit me constantly). So I'm covered there.

Files: DragonDrop from explorer, or xcopy, or xxcopy, or MS's Robocopy - all commandline. If you want GUI, there's Cobian (free, but watch out under Vista), and Second Copy.Thanks. I'll check those out.

Do try before you buy. And you're going to think this is crazy, but test restore.Will do, thanks!

fhaber
August 5th, 2008, 09:10 AM
Oh, photog's tip: Test metadata.

I tried this once with a ridiculous assortment of image-manipulation ware on a film set computer, while bored and earning overtime. I filled out every field of every program with a little data on the same two JPGs. I then copied to floppy, Macintosh, thumb drive, CD (ISO1), and external HD.

The programs were remarkably compatible on the originals. Some data was missing on some of the copies, because FAT or Mac or whatever couldn't handle the metadata correctly. There were also now minor hickies with some programs displaying what did survive.

I think this is the main reason behind the elaborate workflow programs that pros now use - they make a container that will survive everything.

Or RAR them (no compression, really fast). And check integrity on any online service you use, too.

Judy G. Russell
August 5th, 2008, 02:42 PM
Oh, photog's tip: Test metadata.Oh yeah BTDT been burned along the way. So I'm much more careful with that now.

ndebord
August 6th, 2008, 10:47 AM
RAID will lower the chances that you'll have trouble with the disk storage in your computer, but it won't eliminate it entirely. (At my last employer, we had several RAID farms, and they were less reliable than the single, cheap drives in our notebook computers!)

I have a couple of external hard drives, to which I alternate backups. Once I'm employed again, I plan to keep one at the office (as an "offsite" backup).


Mike,

What do you use in the way of software for your external hard drives?

(I have one usb drive that could work if I use the right software.)

Mike
August 7th, 2008, 02:20 AM
What do you use in the way of software for your external hard drives?
I don't use any special software at the moment, Nick. At some point, I will be using imaging software, but for now, I just use the free version XXCOPY (http://www.xxcopy.com) along with a couple of 4NT/TCC scripts to mirror data, configurations, etc. from the hard drive to the USB drive.

If my hard drive were to fail tomorrow, I would have to use the "restore CD" in the new drive, then reinstall my programs, but my data and configurations would be safe.

Judy G. Russell
August 7th, 2008, 09:47 AM
If my hard drive were to fail tomorrow, I would have to use the "restore CD" in the new drive, then reinstall my programs, but my data and configurations would be safe.Considering that I can't even find the disks for some of my programs, that would not necessarily be a good thing for me!

Mike
August 8th, 2008, 02:25 AM
Considering that I can't even find the disks for some of my programs, that would not necessarily be a good thing for me!
Fortunately, most of my installers are on a CD. There are only a few programs which still are on disk. And all of my disks are in a binder in my closet.

It's not the optimal solution, but it's better than when I had no backups! I will have an image backup soon...

Judy G. Russell
August 8th, 2008, 09:00 AM
Fortunately, most of my installers are on a CD. There are only a few programs which still are on disk. And all of my disks are in a binder in my closet.You are far more organized that I am. What I need to do, now, before I order a new system, if go through my existing system, identify all the programs I use (as opposed to ones I've downloaded and never or rarely used) and make sure I have installers and registration info on them...

Jeff
August 8th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Fortunately, most of my installers are on a CD. There are only a few programs which still are on disk. And all of my disks are in a binder in my closet.

It's not the optimal solution, but it's better than when I had no backups! I will have an image backup soon...

What means "image backup" vis a vis a regular full drive backup? One file vs a lot of 600k files?

fhaber
August 8th, 2008, 03:50 PM
File-by-file: You know this one.

Image Backup: A complete grab of the disk as it is, on a physical/sector basis, allegedly restorable to a new drive, which will then boot on Thursdays in good weather, if you've lived right and the marketers haven't lied too much. You may have to call Microsoft and/or other weasly purveyors of DRM to ransom back the Windows, Office, Photoshop, etc. that you've paid for, because the platform has changed under their snooping-facility. There's usually a "bare metal" CD provided - to restore clean, without having to install a tedious disposable copy of your operating system first.

Clone: a complete "image" copy of one or multiple partitions, MBR, and non-scheddo vendor partitions (Dell, HP's restore et. al.). See above for market-droid gotchas.

Some images these days are designed to restore to virtual machines, a super-neat thing for developers who regularly wreck things with alpha software.

Vista has its own imaging facility. Microsoft has offered several, but only to OEMs and big corps who distribute images. Techies have been known to get around this.

And yes, one file vs. 300,000 files (which several of my clients have hit, on **workstations**.

And yes, NTFS, HFS+ (Apple) and EXT3 get cranky at about a million files. Better filesystems are coming. In the meantime, should you be tempted to test things with 1.2x10^6 10-byte files, gardy-loo.

Mike
August 9th, 2008, 03:32 AM
So... I just noticed this evening that Costco.com is offering Acronis True Image 11.0 Home with Acronis Disk Director Suite 10.0 for $50 with free shipping.

Good deal (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11289950&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC%7C1482&N=4000486&Mo=48&No=27&ViewAll=49&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=1482&Ns=P_Price%7C1%7C%7CP_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C)?

I'm thinking of getting a Samsung 2443BWX (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11297826&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1) for $350 in the same order. ...thoughts? (Yes, my new Dell can handle the 1920x1200 resolution... it should allow me to view two pages side-by-side.)

I have to place the order by Sunday to get the pricing.

Mike
August 9th, 2008, 03:38 AM
You are far more organized that I am.
Really? <beam>
I just re-read what I wrote, and realized that it makes little sense. What I meant to write was:

"Fortunately, most of my installers are on my hard drive (and its various backups). For those that are on CDs, the CDs are in the binder in my closet. All the license keys either are printed and in a pocket at the front of the binder, or else, they're in a single folder in my e-mail client."

But yes, I do have that level of organization. And maybe I'll be moving to image backups sooner rather than later, per my other post.

Judy G. Russell
August 9th, 2008, 08:53 AM
So... I just noticed this evening that Costco.com is offering Acronis True Image 11.0 Home with Acronis Disk Director Suite 10.0 for $50 with free shipping. Good deal (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11289950&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC%7C1482&N=4000486&Mo=48&No=27&ViewAll=49&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=1482&Ns=P_Price%7C1%7C%7CP_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C)?Have you used Acronis? I tried it, and loathed it. I decided on Shadow Protect Desktop instead for imaging.

I'm thinking of getting a Samsung 2443BWX (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11297826&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US&s=1) for $350 in the same order. ...thoughts? (Yes, my new Dell can handle the 1920x1200 resolution... it should allow me to view two pages side-by-side.)If you're going to be doing any image editing at all using that monitor, be aware that it's a TN screen type, which is the worst of all LCD types for color management. Otherwise, be aware that it apparently has no USB ports and no height/tilt/swivel etc. adjustments. There's another 2443 model, the 2443BW, that does have those.

Dan in Saint Louis
August 9th, 2008, 09:27 AM
So... I just noticed this evening that Costco.com is offering Acronis True Image 11.0 Home with Acronis Disk Director Suite 10.0 for $50 with free shipping.

Good deal (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11289950&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC%7C1482&N=4000486&Mo=48&No=27&ViewAll=49&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=1482&Ns=P_Price%7C1%7C%7CP_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C)?
Acronis TI isn't bad if you pay attention to its weak points and strong points.

It is not at its best when trying to back up a large number of selected files -- for example, my 25GB WindowsXP user profile.

It does a good job of making an image of the entire disk (currently about 200GB) and saving it to another spindle in less than an hour. The saved image is fully readable file-by-file; and the files open, copy, and otherwise behave normally in Windows Explorer. That image can be restored to an empty disk and the installation is cloned.

If you buy it, visit the Acronis Web site immediately after installing it and update to the newest build. They swat bugs as they pop up.

Jeff
August 9th, 2008, 12:09 PM
And yes, NTFS, HFS+ (Apple) and EXT3 get cranky at about a million files. Better filesystems are coming. In the meantime, should you be tempted to test things with 1.2x10^6 10-byte files, gardy-loo.

Almost been there. Told WinZip to make a single zip out of 20 614,408k backup files. On a FAT32 drive. The result, after it finally gave up and blew up, was 2,500+ 1024k files, each of course occupying a small country. Looked at that for a few minutes, called the command line and del *.* TG for DOS. Cleaning that out with explorer would have been the Aegean stables.

Judy G. Russell
August 9th, 2008, 05:06 PM
It does a good job of making an image of the entire disk (currently about 200GB) and saving it to another spindle in less than an hour. The saved image is fully readable file-by-file; and the files open, copy, and otherwise behave normally in Windows Explorer. That image can be restored to an empty disk and the installation is cloned.That's the same as Shadow Desktop, which has an interface I vastly prefer.

Mike
August 10th, 2008, 02:28 AM
I tried [Acronis], and loathed it. I decided on Shadow Protect Desktop instead for imaging.
Hmmm.

If you're going to be doing any image editing at all using that monitor, be aware that it's a TN screen type, which is the worst of all LCD types for color management.
How did you determine that? I couldn't find any information at the Samsung site, and Googling for specs hasn't paid off. I can find loads of information about my old SyncMaster 930B, except which type of TFT. The 2443BW/X has a 20,000:1 contrast ratio, which is supposed to be very very good.

Otherwise, be aware that it apparently has no USB ports and no height/tilt/swivel etc. adjustments. There's another 2443 model, the 2443BW, that does have those.
My current monitor, the aforementioned 930B, has none of those, and that has never been a problem. I'd considered ordering the Dell monitor at the time I bought the computer (I had a Dell LCD monitor at Data911, and it was excellent), but the price was more than I wanted to pay, and I was employed at the time!

I guess Brent will be happy I won't be pulling out the AmEx this weekend. <g>

Judy G. Russell
August 10th, 2008, 09:13 AM
How did you determine that? I couldn't find any information at the Samsung site, and Googling for specs hasn't paid off. I can find loads of information about my old SyncMaster 930B, except which type of TFT. The 2443BW/X has a 20,000:1 contrast ratio, which is supposed to be very very good.Here's a product brochure (http://www.samsung.com/us/pdf/SE-3555-08_BWX_Brochure_FINAL_LR.pdf) that will help. The TN screens are the worst of the lot for photo editing and color management. However, they're cheap and that can answer a lot!

My current monitor, the aforementioned 930B, has none of those, and that has never been a problem. I'd considered ordering the Dell monitor at the time I bought the computer (I had a Dell LCD monitor at Data911, and it was excellent), but the price was more than I wanted to pay, and I was employed at the time! I guess Brent will be happy I won't be pulling out the AmEx this weekend. <g>Unfortunately, the cost is the big issue (and it's one I'm struggling with right now too). The best screens for color management are the S- or H-IPS screens -- and they're VERY expensive. Figure $800 at a minimum. Next come the PVAs. Then the TNs at the bottom.

fhaber
August 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM
To get other than a TN panel, you're going to have to pay as Judy says. Exception: Dell. As of this writing, their Ultrasharps 24" and larger are IPS and better, and the 24 is still a bit of a bargain at $680. Four months ago, it was $580, cheaper on special. Everyone else's is higher.

24" is the floor for native 1080, if you do that.

Now for reality. I just bought three 22" Ultrasharps (1680x1050) on sale, and they're very usable TNs, with good color, fair gamut, and good viewing angle. Last-gen TNs go black and inverted below dead-on vertically, which stinks. Newer ones don't. You really have to go look to get a feel for this. I like retail, except for known-quantity Dells and a couple of Gateways and HPs.

Samsung is notorious for sending the better panels to the reviewers, then switching to TN in the second run with no warning (until the brochure dribbles out, much later). No change in model number, usually.

This will not change until the buff rags get some cojones, about when you start seeing Berkshire hogs in the La Guardia pattern.

Up/down stand pillars are important if you like to vary your seating position. Otherwise, liberate a volume or two of the Britannica for this duty.

Judy G. Russell
August 10th, 2008, 09:24 PM
To get other than a TN panel, you're going to have to pay as Judy says. Exception: Dell. As of this writing, their Ultrasharps 24" and larger are IPS and better, and the 24 is still a bit of a bargain at $680.The Dell 24" (2408) is PVA, not IPS. Better than TN, but not as good as IPS. Dunno about the 30" but I suspect not IPS either.

fhaber
August 10th, 2008, 10:19 PM
>PVA, not IPS

'Zzat so? I learn.

What I was trying to get across is that there *are* compensations for the TN owner - better tiny-font detail and something left in your wallet. Recent ones can be usable for CAD, though not ideal.

$1500 NECs and Eizos photograph better on the set, as well as being calibrate-able and looking delicious to the eye.

And *any* recent flat panel will hold calibration and focus far longer than a CRT.

And then we can start spending on LED backlights, while waiting for the truly exotic technologies to sink or swim.

Mike
August 10th, 2008, 11:22 PM
[quote=Judy G. Russell;46448]Thanks for the product brochure. I tried to find one on the Samsung site, but obviously didn't search properly.

My 930B is a TN, and the colors are good enough for my work. I don't think Brent would like using a TN in his graphic design work, but my image editing seldom requires color correction (other than eliminating red-eye). However, sometimes I try to match colors, and perhaps the use of the TN is what makes that a bit difficult from time to time.

I guess I'll keep thinking about it for a while.

Mike
August 10th, 2008, 11:30 PM
I'll keep an eye on Dell to see if a monitor goes on sale.

24" is the floor for native 1080, if you do that.
Are you referring to HDTV 1080, or just the 1080 vertical pixel count? If the former, I'm not planning to use the monitor to watch TV (I have a separate HDTV in the room). If the latter, I just don't want anything smaller than my current monitor's 1024.

Adjustment of the stand isn't a big issue for me, either. My current monitor really is sitting on a couple of hard-bound fiction books. <g>

fhaber
August 11th, 2008, 10:21 AM
>Are you referring to HDTV 1080?

Yes, so that the width of 1080i/p lines up pixel-for-pixel with the native 1900-wide screen. As you know, this is the only way to fly for digital screens.

Any 22" widescreen flat panel will give you 1050-high, if that's enough, and will be lots cheaper than 24. 22W is the current sweet spot, until the dollar tanks further (g).

I actually like TN for text better than the graphics-arts displays. It's tack-sharp, if you like spindly, and still very sharp with ClearType, which the rheumy vision of your elders likes very much, thankyouverymuch.

And yes, I resent the widescreen takeover, too. It's another small sign of takeover by the idiocracy - movies vs. reading

Judy G. Russell
August 11th, 2008, 11:41 AM
What I was trying to get across is that there *are* compensations for the TN owner - better tiny-font detail and something left in your wallet.Absolutely no doubt about that. I'm still trying to decide whether I need/use color management enough to warrant the price premium for IPS.

Mike
August 12th, 2008, 01:47 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

My sole motivation for a widescreen is to be able to see two different application windows in their entirety without having to run two monitors. For example, if I'm editing a document, it's nice to be able to see the reference material on the screen at the same time, not having to alt-tab between apps to do my work.

Judy G. Russell
August 12th, 2008, 09:46 AM
My sole motivation for a widescreen is to be able to see two different application windows in their entirety without having to run two monitors. For example, if I'm editing a document, it's nice to be able to see the reference material on the screen at the same time, not having to alt-tab between apps to do my work.Remember that my full-time job is as an editor: having side-by-side material is a godsend.

Mike
August 13th, 2008, 02:42 AM
...having side-by-side material is a godsend.
So you certainly understand my point! Sometimes I would resort to printed copy of the reference material, just to avoid having to alt-tab constantly as I was working.

Judy G. Russell
August 13th, 2008, 10:00 AM
So you certainly understand my point! Sometimes I would resort to printed copy of the reference material, just to avoid having to alt-tab constantly as I was working.Yeah, and it's sooooo much easier just being able to glance from side to side!

Sigh... I'm still dithering over the monitor issue. I'd like an S-IPS for photo editing, but oh my... the price premium...

fhaber
August 13th, 2008, 01:46 PM
For completeness, remember that modern graphics cards all have two outputs, which work just fine on two $150 monitors. If you already have one, consider buying another instead of a tarty widescreen (g).

And don't forget the middle button assignment on Microsoft and some other wheel mice that lets you click for a Macintosh-like display of BIG thumbnails of all your open windows. If you want to get tricky, you can configure the forward thumb button to bring up the magnifier, so you can sort of read the thumbnails, given a good tailwind. (Requires MS mousware 6.x or better.)

And then you can alternate between Alt-Tab and Alt-Sh-Tab, to dance among open windows that way.

Judy G. Russell
August 13th, 2008, 03:52 PM
...a tarty widescreen (g).Now now...

fhaber
August 13th, 2008, 05:07 PM
>Now now...

Just expiating... This is also a widescreen household, and thus doomed.

Mike
August 14th, 2008, 03:13 AM
Unfortunately, my workspace isn't quite big enough to have two physical monitors on it, but it will handle a single widescreen monitor.

ktinkel
August 14th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Remember that my full-time job is as an editor: having side-by-side material is a godsend.Absolutely! I can just do that, plus leave room for screen junk (the dock, on a Mac; and the corner of the chat client so I can tell if someone wants to talk).

Two browser windows for working on web sites. The source image and my working copy when editing images. Instructions on one screen and the form or other work on the other. A sudoku game or jigsaw on one; work on the other. All those things.

A wide monitor is a godsend, and my experiments with two monitors was not nearly as good (though that was long ago, with CRTs — they were so bulky that I really had to turn my head to use two screens then).

Alas, even the 24-inch screen can seem small at times. If I could, I would have a 30-inch. It looked impossibly huge at the store, but I keep bumping into the edges of this poor thing, so suspect I would have adapted pretty fast.

Judy G. Russell
August 14th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Alas, even the 24-inch screen can seem small at times. If I could, I would have a 30-inch.The prices on the 30-inch ones are... daunting. At least on the 30-inch S-IPS monitors.

ktinkel
August 14th, 2008, 10:43 AM
The prices on the 30-inch ones are... daunting. At least on the 30-inch S-IPS monitors.Ah, yes. I see (had to look it up). Couple of grand while comparable 24-inch screens are a thousand or less. Are you positive you need this!!? <g>

I went to see what you were talking about, and found an interesting site on choosing an LCD monitor (http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/choosing_an_LCD_monitor/) for photo editing. It includes some test images.

Not sure this is common, but I bought a late 2007 iMac instead of the newer one because Apple had changed the screen to make it very shiny — almost like a mirror. Very irritating. I have seen comments that some S-IPS monitors are also like that. (I believe Apple gives the buyer a choice with its monitors, but not with the iMacs, which have the monitor built in.)

I expect you are very up on all this, but I thought this discussion of 30-inch photo-editing monitors (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=79352) (from last December) was interesting. Something about the material used in the monitors, not about S-IPS specifically (I assume IPS is not the same thing :confused:).

Good luck with making this decision. Seems as tricky as creating a new kitchen!

Judy G. Russell
August 15th, 2008, 12:52 AM
Ah, yes. I see (had to look it up). Couple of grand while comparable 24-inch screens are a thousand or less. Are you positive you need this!!? <g>No, I'm not actually (despite the comment in the website you found: "only the least common, most expensive technology (called S-IPS, described below) is good for photo editing"). I'm really not sure that the kind of stuff I do really needs the kind of color management and calibration the Big Boys use in their photo editing. After all, I'm doing this stuff for myself, not for money, and the prints I'm getting are gorgeous even without color management. And with the cost premium... geez... I dunno...

Dan in Saint Louis
August 15th, 2008, 09:36 AM
I'm really not sure that the kind of stuff I do really needs the kind of color management and calibration the Big Boys use in their photo editing.
Even the inexpensive displays can do a good job (maybe not quite "great job") if calibrated. My monitor is an inexpensive 19" ViewSonic VX910, and a couple of years ago I bought a Pantone i1 calibrator. The results are not bad at all.

ktinkel
August 15th, 2008, 03:03 PM
No, I'm not actually (despite the comment in the website you found: "only the least common, most expensive technology (called S-IPS, described below) is good for photo editing"). I'm really not sure that the kind of stuff I do really needs the kind of color management and calibration the Big Boys use in their photo editing. After all, I'm doing this stuff for myself, not for money, and the prints I'm getting are gorgeous even without color management. And with the cost premium... geez... I dunno...Yes, I would agree that your work does not seem at all hampered.

And nice thing about monitors: You can always buy a moderately wonderful one that you can afford with the option of replacing it after a while if it isn’t up to snuff. Maybe when better ones will be cheaper or betterer!

Judy G. Russell
August 15th, 2008, 05:25 PM
Even the inexpensive displays can do a good job (maybe not quite "great job") if calibrated. My monitor is an inexpensive 19" ViewSonic VX910, and a couple of years ago I bought a Pantone i1 calibrator. The results are not bad at all.I will surely buy calibration stuff with this new monitor, Dan.

Judy G. Russell
August 15th, 2008, 05:26 PM
nice thing about monitors: You can always buy a moderately wonderful one that you can afford with the option of replacing it after a while if it isn’t up to snuff. Maybe when better ones will be cheaper or betterer!Yeah, I'm kind of leaning towards a middle-price monitor and good calibration equipment with the idea that I can replace the monitor if it just doesn't work out.

ktinkel
August 15th, 2008, 08:08 PM
And yes, I resent the widescreen takeover, too. It's another small sign of takeover by the idiocracy - movies vs. readingWell, except for those of us who like to read a lot! It is mostly for reading that I like a wide monitor. I get two pages, just like a book.

ktinkel
August 15th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Almost been there. Told WinZip to make a single zip out of 20 614,408k backup files. On a FAT32 drive. The result, after it finally gave up and blew up, was 2,500+ 1024k files, each of course occupying a small country. Looked at that for a few minutes, called the command line and del *.* TG for DOS. Cleaning that out with explorer would have been the Aegean stables.Augean (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/stables.html)?

Jeff
August 16th, 2008, 01:29 PM
Augean (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/stables.html)?

Ooops. I hate that. Where was my tpyo chucker?

ktinkel
August 16th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Ooops. I hate that. Where was my tpyo chucker?Out chucking tpyos? ;)

Dan in Saint Louis
August 17th, 2008, 11:04 AM
Sounds like the backups are really the key here -- RAID isn't going to do that much for me.
Another issue to consider is that if you goof and overwrite (or otherwise corrupt) a treasured file, it gets overwritten all the way across a RAID array. RAID 5 and 6 can probably recover from a bad drive, but only true backup can recover from a user's slip of the mouse button.

Judy G. Russell
August 17th, 2008, 12:14 PM
Another issue to consider is that if you goof and overwrite (or otherwise corrupt) a treasured file, it gets overwritten all the way across a RAID array. RAID 5 and 6 can probably recover from a bad drive, but only true backup can recover from a user's slip of the mouse button.True, and I'm thinking strongly of just going with backup. RAID seems at this point to be more than I really need.

fhaber
August 17th, 2008, 02:01 PM
>It is mostly for reading that I like a wide monitor.

Throw a wet blanket on my curmudgeonly rant, would you? Pffft.

Yes, wide monitors are nice for that. I'll leave the real PhotoBoffin crowd to the real tips, but I have a couple of off-the-wall ones.

1. Be careful that the weight of your calibrator puck doesn't dent the screen and throw everything *way, way* off. I've seen this happen. Ever looked on in horror as an ankle-biter pressed on a TN screen with his pudgy little digit?

2. Modern, quality TNs are way, way better with the color shift thing. Pink shifts in the down, left and right directions are most common.

3. And didja ever think that one reason for the precipit^H^H rapid shift to widescreen is that when the display is skinny and wide, you can't have as much up-down color shift? Is that my conspiracy-theory prediliction talking, or....?

ktinkel
August 17th, 2008, 08:46 PM
>It is mostly for reading that I like a wide monitor.

Throw a wet blanket on my curmudgeonly rant, would you? Pffft.

Yes, wide monitors are nice for that. I'll leave the real PhotoBoffin crowd to the real tips, but I have a couple of off-the-wall ones.

1. Be careful that the weight of your calibrator puck doesn't dent the screen and throw everything *way, way* off. I've seen this happen. Ever looked on in horror as an ankle-biter pressed on a TN screen with his pudgy little digit?I don’t use one of those. Good-enough color is good enough for me. (If it’s important, I send for a pro.)

And didja ever think that one reason for the precipit^H^H rapid shift to widescreen is that when the display is skinny and wide, you can't have as much up-down color shift? Is that my conspiracy-theory prediliction talking, or....?Gee, dunno. Everything else is corrupt, so why not displays? <g>