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Judy G. Russell
July 2nd, 2008, 03:03 PM
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up with a new computer this year (my desktop is old and BOY does it ever need more hard drive room!), but I still feel that... well... no, no, no. No Vista for me. Don't want it. But with Microsoft discontinuing XP as of the end of June, I figured I'd better hedge my bets. So I am now the proud owner of one XP Pro retail package. The new machine may come with Vista, but it ain't gonna live with Vista.

Dan in Saint Louis
July 2nd, 2008, 03:51 PM
Before scrubbing the new hard drive and installing XP, make sure that XP drivers exist for the hardware. Even mother boards sometimes need drivers.

One alternate solution is to buy from someone like Dell who still sells a few XP machines. Another is to have a PC built locally by a shop that has a stock of XP-compliant parts.

Judy G. Russell
July 2nd, 2008, 04:37 PM
Before scrubbing the new hard drive and installing XP, make sure that XP drivers exist for the hardware. Even mother boards sometimes need drivers. One alternate solution is to buy from someone like Dell who still sells a few XP machines. Another is to have a PC built locally by a shop that has a stock of XP-compliant parts.Good point. I always have my machines built locally and I'll make sure we all discuss the components to be sure this won't be a problem.

ndebord
July 2nd, 2008, 09:46 PM
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up with a new computer this year (my desktop is old and BOY does it ever need more hard drive room!), but I still feel that... well... no, no, no. No Vista for me. Don't want it. But with Microsoft discontinuing XP as of the end of June, I figured I'd better hedge my bets. So I am now the proud owner of one XP Pro retail package. The new machine may come with Vista, but it ain't gonna live with Vista.

Judy,

Like minds and all that. I too just bought XP Pro Full version and intend to use it on a new laptop sometime this year I hope.

Mike
July 3rd, 2008, 02:37 AM
No Vista for me.
Ditto. I don't have a shop like you, so I ordered from Dell, but I got what I wanted, which included XP Pro.

I did upgrade to SP 3 two nights ago, and it seems to be stable.

I bought the old W2K machine on the cusp of the XP release, and it served me well. Hopefully, this machine will do likewise!

Peter Creasey
July 3rd, 2008, 08:24 AM
The new machine may come with Vista, but it ain't gonna live with Vista.

Judy, I love my XP Pro machines. However, I must say that the Vista Ultimate system has been fabulous also on a new machine (as I knock on wood!).

I recommend that you try Vista for awhile before making a decision whether to cast it aside.

fhaber
July 3rd, 2008, 11:09 AM
Thoughts:

o Clone the old box's HD with Acronis or similar to a new 500 or similar. HDs are cheap, and parallel ATA ones are getting scarcer. Gets you a backup - the best kind of backup, a forklift in hardware.

o If you cough up $99 extra for Vista Business, Dell will (still, now) preload XP Pro for you, and save you the trouble of...... They intend to keep doing this stealth downgrade for the rest of the year, or until Ballmer throws something.

Jeff
July 3rd, 2008, 11:53 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up with a new computer this year (my desktop is old and BOY does it ever need more hard drive room!), but I still feel that... well... no, no, no. No Vista for me. Don't want it. But with Microsoft discontinuing XP as of the end of June, I figured I'd better hedge my bets. So I am now the proud owner of one XP Pro retail package. The new machine may come with Vista, but it ain't gonna live with Vista.

HAL came with XP Pro, but of course no XP CDs. It's 4 years old and I'd like to hedge too. Where did you get the CD package and was it SP3? Cost?

- Jeff

fhaber
July 3rd, 2008, 01:33 PM
Lenovo will sell you an XP restore disk for ~40, I think. It may even be a real XP disk, not a nuke disk. Ask them.

Newegg will still sell you OEM SP3 for about $140. I have a couple of SP2s left if you have trouble.

Judy G. Russell
July 3rd, 2008, 02:07 PM
Ditto. I don't have a shop like you, so I ordered from Dell, but I got what I wanted, which included XP Pro.I just can't order yet (minor little matters of the drainage project and the Africa trip totally depleting the treasury!), which is why I figured I'd better grab the retail package while I still could.

Judy G. Russell
July 3rd, 2008, 02:08 PM
I recommend that you try Vista for awhile before making a decision whether to cast it aside.Been there, done that, on a work machine. XP for me, thanks.

Judy G. Russell
July 3rd, 2008, 02:09 PM
o If you cough up $99 extra for Vista Business, Dell will (still, now) preload XP Pro for you, and save you the trouble of...... They intend to keep doing this stealth downgrade for the rest of the year, or until Ballmer throws something.If I weren't going to buy whatever I end up buying through the folks at Precision, that's exactly what I'd do.

Judy G. Russell
July 3rd, 2008, 02:09 PM
Where did you get the CD package and was it SP3? Cost?SP2 only and through an academic software place so the price was a little less than the usual retail cost (which is around $280).

Mike
July 4th, 2008, 02:16 AM
...I figured I'd better grab the retail package while I still could.
I understand. But you may be surprised when you start pricing the box!

Judy G. Russell
July 4th, 2008, 08:57 AM
I understand. But you may be surprised when you start pricing the box!I hope I will be, and in a good sense. But I'd rather be safe than sorry (and I'm still toying with the idea of building my own).

Jeff
July 4th, 2008, 01:45 PM
Attention, once true believer but now backslider! HAL is real IBM, not a four character ideogram starting with L.
Thanks for the suggestion, though. I will call Atlanta, although I have little hope for the real thing.
As to SP2, I think I remember reading that SP3 can be dl'ed, and then installed? And that SP3 can update back to XP PRO year one? If so, where do I find it, while I still can?

earler
July 4th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Here is sp3 through betanews. Note that it comes from microsoft's own servers not from betanews, which only provides the link:

http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/Microsoft_Windows_XP_Service_Pack_3/1197391546/1

Jeff
July 4th, 2008, 02:03 PM
SP2 only and through an academic software place so the price was a little less than the usual retail cost (which is around $280).

A whole new Chinese machine is only three times that, and likely worth 1/3 as much. How do you double the price of a Yugo..?

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/na/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:expandcategory?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=8FA114A7D9FF4F38AE8E19B36EC665A7

HAL is a real ThinkPad R series. Those are knockoff fakes. I have already dumped my little IBM stock holding in disgust.

- Jeff

fhaber
July 4th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Don't rush. SP3 will be available for a good looooong while. Support is promised through 2014. I think you have to start with SP1 at the lowest, any point after that is fine.

Had a brand new Lenovo T61 in here last week. Sneer not; fine machine. Yes, XP.

Judy G. Russell
July 4th, 2008, 09:09 PM
Had a brand new Lenovo T61 in here last week. Sneer not; fine machine. Yes, XP.Agreed. They may not say IBM, but they're fine machines indeed.

earler
July 5th, 2008, 05:49 AM
I got a t61p myself last autumn. I use vista on it, however, and it is fine. However, the battery is bad --it discharges completely within a couple of weeks-- when the computer is off. I have to call lenovo to get it replaced. Happily, the battery has a 1 year warranty.

fhaber
July 5th, 2008, 10:53 AM
There are some (BIOS+chipset) issues with T60s that drain the battery excessively when turned off, or hibernating. Check the usual places to see whether that applies to 61s.

To give science its full due, you might try *removing* the battery for a week, then checking for self-discharge. This will make sure you're fixing the right thing.

Jeff
July 5th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Don't rush. SP3 will be available for a good looooong while. Support is promised through 2014. I think you have to start with SP1 at the lowest, any point after that is fine.

Had a brand new Lenovo T61 in here last week. Sneer not; fine machine. Yes, XP.

Ok, I won't send the barker and horn section from Music Man to Beijing. A new one with XP? Interesting. I guess I'll ignore their Vista sales site and call Atlanta.

R or T and for 100 bucks what's the difference? All I want to buy is a closet backup for HAL, a 15.4 screen R51.

Jeff
July 5th, 2008, 12:35 PM
There are some (BIOS+chipset) issues with T60s that drain the battery excessively when turned off, or hibernating. Check the usual places to see whether that applies to 61s.


As I remember from way back in my Toshiba days, plugged in with power off will do that. So I've never done it, and HAL's battery is 4 years old and still going strong. Unplugged if power off, plugged in even if sleeping with power on.

earler
July 5th, 2008, 05:36 PM
I'll try removing the battery to see if that makes a difference. But I am pessimistic since laptops are designed so as not to drain the battery when off or in hibernation.

fhaber
July 6th, 2008, 10:31 AM
>plugged in with power off will do that.

Sometimes. Sensing battery state is actually fairly tricky, or as the boffins say, "non-trivial." It depends heavily on the elaborate sensing and protection circuitry that's inside every Lithium assembly. (Recall that Li cells make fair bombs and good incendiaries, and that we don't usually have to worry about such stuff, knock wood, knock wood.)

So Earle's problem could be the cells, or the circuitry sensing the end-of-charge voltage depression and temperature, or the charging module in the laptop, which must charge a discharged battery at full bore (advertised fast charge time), then taper off (to avoid cooking the cells), then stop and go dormant until the battery self-discharges down to a pre-set point.

Trickle/maintenance charging is frequently not used these days, since there's some evidence that it's bad for battery life on NiCds, NiMHes, and Li-s. It's still good for your car, your UPS and your stairwell emergency lighting (Lead-acid).

This episode of "more than you wanted to know about penguins" has been brought to you by TAPCIS Forum, home of the *informed* windbag.

Judy G. Russell
July 6th, 2008, 10:57 AM
This episode of "more than you wanted to know about penguins" has been brought to you by TAPCIS Forum, home of the *informed* windbag.ROFL!!!!! Don't do that to me while I'm drinking my coffee!

earler
July 6th, 2008, 11:28 AM
I hadn't thought of it being a problem in the thinkpad itself until reading your message. Well, I'll start with getting a replacement battery. If the new one has the same problem, then it will be time to exchange the thinkpad, I suppose.

Mike
July 13th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Had a brand new Lenovo T61 in here last week. Sneer not; fine machine. Yes, XP.
But I bet you didn't have to call for technical support. Lenovo doesn't support Windows (http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13554_1-9883671-33.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=DefensiveComputing).

fhaber
July 14th, 2008, 11:24 AM
Not to excuse Lenovo, but

o They're in transition. Their TS is still IBM in Atlanta. I'm not expecting things to get better when they're fully Lenovo.

o That was a business desktop, I think. There's no excuse - it's an OEM Windows. It's at the hardware/software interface (crash dump). Now minidumps frequently yield nothing, but they should look.

o This has NOT been my experience with T series laptops. There's still a dollar or two profit in those, and service and support has been as expected. So far.

Jeff
July 14th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Not to excuse Lenovo, but

o They're in transition. Their TS is still IBM in Atlanta. I'm not expecting things to get better when they're fully Lenovo.

On Monday, 7/7, of last week the R61 series still listed XP Pro as possible on the Lenovo<choke> sales web site. On Wednesday, when I was leisurely thinking about which R61, the site suddenly said 'XP yes, if you buy 25 of them'. I called Atlanta and said that's a deal breaker; I will not do Vista. Atlanta said MS has already said no more XP, but we still have a few in stock for the next few days; note my rep number on the order in case the system chokes.

It has been shipped. And the PDF view of it still shows "IBM ThinkPad" lower right of keyboard, just like my R51. I may have bought a last real IBM notebook.

Mike
July 15th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Glad to hear your experience has been better, but it's still a shame that people have to go through the hassles!

MollyM/CA
July 22nd, 2008, 03:02 PM
I got Vista for my new computer, partly because it was cheaper (the XP I had that I thought was standalone was an upgrade and I thought it would be borrowing trouble to install an old XP and upgrade it) -- which tells you something about Vista! -- and partly because already I would have had to download retro drivers for some hardware (I forget which). It's more tweakable than they'd like you to think, and less than I'd like -- I especially resent its wanting to put things where it thinks I should have them, not where I want them. Especially, not only, media files. Also, it's even harder to find things like the DUN applet than it was in XP. Nancy Hawley of Compuserve Garden helped me a lot.

Against all that, Vista had drivers for ALL my peripherals, except the Laserjet (the oldest peripheral), which meant that I didn't have to mess with gigabytes of idiotic HP printer and scanner software (I use Vue-Scan for scanning, thank you DTP for saving my sanity: a $50 download that can see just about any scanner and which is fast, logical, and capable, none of which can be said for HP software (the software for the scanner only could use half its resolution -- go figure.). It also runs the Logitech Bluetooth mouse and keyboard without the bundled, in-your-face-all-the-time software. If XP would have I never found out how.

I wonder what Vista's successor will be like -- I don't have any kind of good feeling about it--

And don't get me going about Word 2007!