PDA

View Full Version : [Dixonary] IE6 versus Firefox to access Compuserve


Judy Madnick
June 7th, 2008, 07:42 AM
From: "Bill Hirst" <billhirst (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

<< Or else I'm paranoid and Time/Warner's slow destruction of
<< Compuserve
<< is proceeding on schedule.

I am no longer able to use Internet Explorer 6 to log on to Compuserve. I had to download Firefox so that I can access the Compuserve forums. I don't know whether this is an issue for IE in general or if I should upgrade to IE 7. Anyone know anything about this?

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL

Dodi Schultz
June 7th, 2008, 09:35 AM
Judy, stick with Firefox. It's much nicer than IE.

--Dodi

Judy Madnick
June 7th, 2008, 09:59 AM
From: "Dodi Schultz" <SCHULTZ (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>

<< Judy, stick with Firefox. It's much nicer than IE.

I just don't like being forced to change if I don't really want to. A lot of people really like Firefox, but aren't there issues with some websites?

Judy

davidh
June 7th, 2008, 10:25 AM
From: "Bill Hirst" <billhirst (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

<< Or else I'm paranoid and Time/Warner's slow destruction of
<< Compuserve
<< is proceeding on schedule.

I am no longer able to use Internet Explorer 6 to log on to Compuserve. I had to download Firefox so that I can access the Compuserve forums. I don't know whether this is an issue for IE in general or if I should upgrade to IE 7. Anyone know anything about this?

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL
I just logged into "my stuff" on http://community.netscape.com with MS IE 5.5 running on Windows 95 with an AIM ID (not classic compuserve ID).

Firefox 3.0 release candidate is available now. It is supposed to be significantly faster and more stable (memory-wise) than FF 2.0. I'll probably have to stick to 2.0 on my Win 98SE PC but I'll definitely try it out on Win XP SP3 here. I would wait until the FF 3.0 final release tho', because some FF extensions may not yet work with FF 3.0.

I'm just guessing, but your problem with MS IE 6 may have to do with MS IE 6 configuration. I think there may be a way to reset it to factory configuration, to see if that solves the problem.

There are so many programs that run as browser plug-ins or that can be fired up by browsers and so many of those programs have security holes that I would never run MS IE regularly unless I were to scan all the popular apps on my PC religiously for unpatched vulnerabilities. Firefox Noscript extension protects you from most such exploits so that you can even run unpatchable vulnerable "end of life" applications safely. Obviously it wouldn't help to scan unpatchable (end of life) applications on your PC for security vulnerabilities after you once find out that they are "end of life".

I also use Finjan Safe Browsing extension and FireKeeper Intrusion Detection extension in my FF browser even tho' they do give a very few false positives. It's pretty hard to find out how to get the level of protection available with FF extensions in MS IE. I don't know of any add-ons for MS IE that come close. I've been following the security blogs at the Internet Storm Center for years now and I've not seen anything as good for MS IE

BTW, I do use the Secunia.com PSI Personal Software Inspector (both online and offline versions) to scan my PC for unpatched vulnerabilities, but NOT religiously since I rely on FF NoScript to protect any unpatched holes that might be unpatched.

I don't know what other security products scan for a wide range of unpatched holes besides Secunia PSI. Trend Micro Housecall online scan does but it does a FULL security scan of the whole PC which takes MUCH longer than a Secunia (vulns. only)scan.

Tim B
June 7th, 2008, 11:09 AM
> aren't there issues with some websites?


The only ones I've found are:

1 Microsoft's own Windows Update only works with IE;

2 A couple of programs I run insist on launching IE when I open a URL,
even if Firefox is already open;

3 One banking website persists in warning me every time that I'm not
using an approved browser - but then it proceeds to work fine with Firefox.

None of those is serious, and I feel much safer with Firefox.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

Daniel B. Widdis
June 7th, 2008, 11:55 AM
JM> A lot of people really like Firefox, but aren't there issues
JM> with some websites?

I love Firefox, and avoid IE unless I have to use it. Yes, there are
occasional websites which don't quite work right in Firefox (usually
involving some sort of Javascript) but there is an extension for Firefox
called "IE View" (or its cousin, "IE Tab" which lets you specify certain
sites to display using IE's rendering engine.) I have exactly 3 sites on my
list, and compared to the hundreds I visit daily, that's not bad.

I empathize with you, though, on being "forced" to switch, although in
general, if you're not using the latest version of a browser, you have to
realize that some things become obsolete.

--
Dan

Judy Madnick
June 7th, 2008, 04:03 PM
From: "Tim B" <dixonary (AT) siam (DOT) co.uk>

<< 1 Microsoft's own Windows Update only works with IE;

Ah, so what do you do? I have Windows Updates installed automatically.

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL

JohnnyB
June 7th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Tim

>> < 1 Microsoft's own Windows Update only works with IE;


Is that striuctly true... If I allow Windows update to work automatically,
its fine even after I uninstalled IE!

But if I go on site then 'yes' I can only automatically update via IE -
however they do tell me were to go to get the updates not using IE - [[in
fact, as usual, MS tell me where to go, where to get off and etc]]

However... It may have been coincidence, but... 3 weeks after uninstalling
IE; windows (XP SP3) lost all access to ordinary explorer, no desktop, no
icons, no nothing. No response to keys or mouse clicks - except the old
three-fingered salute (CTRL-ALT_DEL) gave me task manager which I could use
to launch and run whatever I wanted - It felt very like the "good-old-days"
where one ran one's own computer. However, I have got lazy and missed the
good things about windows - It needed a format and new install to begin to
work again - I had been using this machine for 6 years and I have forgotten
many of the little tweaks that I had done in that time, so its not quite as
it was -for instance I have lost local access to one email account
altogether - now how did I sort that out 5 years ago? -

before you ask, "Yes", this has IE again - I have managed to avoid using
it: like Dan I only found about 1 site in several hundred that wouldn't work
with Firefox and decided long ago not to bother with such sites - OK so I
can't book online for the Odeon Cinema - there are other cinemas!

JohnnyB

Tim Bourne
June 7th, 2008, 04:59 PM
> Ah, so what do you do? I have Windows Updates installed automatically.



So do I, and it doesn't affect that. It just means that you can't start
Windows Update manually from Firefox - not a problem.

Best wishes,
Tim.

Tim Bourne
June 7th, 2008, 05:01 PM
> even after I uninstalled IE!


My impression is that part of IE is needed for Windows to function, even
if it's not used directly. I've never tried to uninstall it; I just
don't use it unless I have no option.

Best wishes,
Tim.

Judy Madnick
June 7th, 2008, 05:16 PM
From: "Tim Bourne" <tim (AT) siam (DOT) co.uk>

<< > Ah, so what do you do? I have Windows Updates installed
<< automatically.

<< So do I, and it doesn't affect that. It just means that you can't
<< start
<< Windows Update manually from Firefox - not a problem.

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Judy

Daniel B. Widdis
June 7th, 2008, 06:23 PM
JB> like Dan I only found about 1 site in several hundred
JB> that wouldn't work with Firefox

I actually peeked in to see which 3 sites I had marked to use the IE Tab:

1. Windows Update, which has been discussed.

2. My work webmail, which uses Outlook Web Access. While it works just fine
in Firefox and other browsers, using an IE browser gives access to "premium
features".

3. The Deposit@Home function of my web-based bank (in which I use my scanner
to deposit checks). The Java code doesn't play nicely with Firefox, and
since I want my money, I use IE there.

--
Dan

JohnnyB
June 8th, 2008, 05:23 AM
Tim

>
> My impression is that part of IE is needed for Windows to
> function, even if it's not used directly. I've never tried to
> uninstall it; I just don't use it unless I have no option.
>

I thought that was what the whole EU thing was about!! - but more
seriously, if it is essential then why can it be uninstalled? MS are usually
so careful to patronisingly hand-hold customers and prevent them from doing
anything that I am really surprised they would casually allow someone to do
something that completely damages the operating system.

Having said that, I chose to consider my "crash" to be in some way related
to the fact that I had uninstalled IE - even if Windows ran happily for some
weeks without it


JohnnyB

Paul Keating
June 8th, 2008, 06:51 AM
I'm now so used to living in an entirely cheque-less country that the notion
of scanning a cheque and depositing the image seems, well, rather quaint.

I don't suppose they let you deposit cash that way?

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

> 3. The Deposit@Home function of my web-based bank (in which I use my
scanner to deposit checks).

Dodi Schultz
June 8th, 2008, 08:56 AM
>> I'm now so used to living in an entirely cheque-less country...

Is everything--salaries, household bills, etc.--paid by electronic transfer
there, Paul?

--Dodi

France International
June 8th, 2008, 09:35 AM
Well, I don't see why not. The serial numbers on the bills are unique.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Keating" <keating (AT) acm (DOT) org>
To: <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: [Dixonary] Re: IE6 versus Firefox to access Compuserve


>
> I'm now so used to living in an entirely cheque-less country that the
notion
> of scanning a cheque and depositing the image seems, well, rather quaint.
>
> I don't suppose they let you deposit cash that way?
>
> --
> Paul Keating
> The Hague
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
>
> > 3. The Deposit@Home function of my web-based bank (in which I use my
> scanner to deposit checks).
>

Paul Keating
June 8th, 2008, 10:59 AM
Nearly everything.

There's still cash, of course. Most supermarket shopping is done with a
debit card; you can authorize direct debits, which is typically how you pay
for something when you fill in a form as mail it, like concert tickets; but
the closest thing to a cheque, still around but under siege from e-banking,
is a paper credit order (in Dutch: acceptgiro).

That works as follows: A supplier sends you an invoice and at the bottom is
a standard yellow form with amount, reference number, their bank account etc
filled in. Often it will have your bank account number too, if they know it;
otherwise you fill it in. You sign it and post/take it to _your_ bank and
your bank pays _their_ bank. They know they've been paid when the reference
number comes up on their statement.

But lots of people just copy the 16-digit reference number off the paper
form onto an e-banking screen.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dodi Schultz" <SCHULTZ (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>
To: <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: [Dixonary] IE6 versus Firefox to access Compuserve




>> I'm now so used to living in an entirely cheque-less country...

Is everything--salaries, household bills, etc.--paid by electronic transfer
there, Paul?

--Dodi

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2008, 11:03 AM
PK> the notion of scanning a cheque and depositing the image
PK> seems, well, rather quaint.

I try to eliminate paper as much as possible, receiving and paying bills
electronically. Most of my recent deposits have been associated with having
moved recently (refund of rental deposit, refund of overpaid phone/tv bills,
etc.) and, of course, gifts from grandparents to my kids.

PK> I don't suppose they let you deposit cash that way?

I should try that!

--
Dan

Paul Keating
June 8th, 2008, 11:28 AM
That's one of the things that people mention when they say that cheques
aren't dead just yet. It's hard to put an electronic transfer in a festive
envelope.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>


> and, of course, gifts from grandparents to my kids.

earler
June 8th, 2008, 02:08 PM
In france there is a long tradition of bill paying by direct deduction, dating back over 30 years. Given the inherent risk with cheques shopkeepers prefer people to pay with their credit card, which is a smart card, a tiny chip on the card. This requires inputting of a 4 digit code, which if ok, the amount to be debited is transmitted to the bank, which approves it or not.

Dodi Schultz
June 8th, 2008, 05:04 PM
>> In france there is a long tradition of bill paying by direct
>> deduction, dating back over 30 years. Given the inherent risk with
>> cheques shopkeepers prefer people to pay with their credit card,
>> which is a smart card, a tiny chip on the card. This requires
>> inputting of a 4 digit code, which if ok, the amount to be debited
>> is transmitted to the bank, which approves it or not.

That sounds like what's called a debit card here.

Never use one, myself; it'd be too easy to forget a deducted amount and
think I still had the bank balance that was there the last time I looked!

Here, a credit card (which I use at the supermarket and just about
everywhere else) puts the amount of your purchase on your account at the
credit card company. It's not payable until you receive their monthly
statement. Hm; I guess it's an interest-free loan for a few weeks, really.
(I, like most people I know, pay the total of the purchases each month, so
there's no interest charged.)

--Dodi

EnDash@aol.com
June 8th, 2008, 05:51 PM
I see very little sense in using a debit card and never do so myself. One
might as well pay in cash or by check.

Other than for minor purchases, it is far more advantageous to use a credit
card. The credit card offers delayed payment at no cost (if you pay in full
and on time), and most of them offer some form of reward be it frequent flier
miles, cash rebates, gift cards, or whatever.

-- Dick


In a message dated 6/8/2008 6:06:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
SCHULTZ (AT) compuserve (DOT) com writes:

That sounds like what's called a debit card here.

Never use one, myself; it'd be too easy to forget a deducted amount and
think I still had the bank balance that was there the last time I looked!

Here, a credit card (which I use at the supermarket and just about
everywhere else) puts the amount of your purchase on your account at the
credit card company. It's not payable until you receive their monthly
statement. Hm; I guess it's an interest-free loan for a few weeks, really.
(I, like most people I know, pay the total of the purchases each month, so
there's no interest charged.)





**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2008, 06:22 PM
> far more advantageous to use a credit card



My bank provides rewards for using their debit card.



But still, I agree the delayed payment of credit cards usually trumps that,
unless you are purchasing from a merchant who either does not accept credit
cards (Arco Gas and Costco are two examples) or provides a discounted price
for cash/debit compared to credit (since merchants typically pay 3-5% fees
to the credit card companies - what's really financing those interest free
loans.)



--

Dan

EnDash@aol.com
June 8th, 2008, 06:47 PM
There is a very large chain of pharmacy/general drugstores here in Manhattan
named Duane Reade. They accept most debit and credit cards but have a
loyalty program of their own which amounts essentially to a 5% discount.

You simply get one of their "club" cards (free) and let them scan it in
whenever you make a purchase -- cash, credit, debit, whatever. Every time your
purchases total $100, the cash register automatically issues a coupon good for
$5.00 starting the next day and valid for a couple of weeks.

If you use a card that also provide some sort of reward, it's a double dip.

-- Dick


In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:23:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

But still, I agree the delayed payment of credit cards usually trumps that,
unless you are purchasing from a merchant who either does not accept credit
cards (Arco Gas and Costco are two examples) or provides a discounted price
for cash/debit compared to credit (since merchants typically pay 3-5% fees to
the credit card companies – what’s really financing those interest free
loans.)




**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Judy Madnick
June 8th, 2008, 07:03 PM
From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

<< My bank provides rewards for using their debit card.

Same here -- if we have at least one electronic deposit per month, agree to receive a link to our statement via email rather than through "snail mail," and use our debit card ten times per month, we get 5.08% interest on balances up to $25,000. Of course, that interest rate isn't going to last forever, but we're enjoying it while we can. <G> And we purposely use the debit card only for small purchases, because our credit cards give us cash back.

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL

Tony Abell
June 8th, 2008, 08:09 PM
I pay all my recurring monthly expenses via either credit card or electronic
withdrawal. Credits cards are paid via the web. I only write checks for
certain quarterly expenses: property tax, water and sewer.

I only use my bank's debit cart at their ATMs. Using them for purchases would
cost me somewhere between $2-5 per transaction.

------------------------------------------
On 08-Jun-08 at 20:03 Judy Madnick wrote:


> From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

> << My bank provides rewards for using their debit card.

> Same here -- if we have at least one electronic deposit per month, agree to
> receive a link to our statement via email rather than through "snail mail,"
> and use our debit card ten times per month, we get 5.08% interest on balances
> up to $25,000. Of course, that interest rate isn't going to last forever, but
> we're enjoying it while we can. <G> And we purposely use the debit card only
> for small purchases, because our credit cards give us cash back.

> Judy Madnick
> Jacksonville, FL

Tim B
June 9th, 2008, 02:48 AM
> I only use my bank's debit cart at their ATMs. Using them for purchases would
> cost me somewhere between $2-5 per transaction.

That sounds very steep!

At present my personal bank account is free of charges, though that
situation may change. Use of the debit card is free to me, and costs the
merchant a flat 60p ($1.20) or so, compared with 4% or so for a credit
card. Cash withdrawals are free at the ATMs of most banks, but there is
often a charge at those in other places. The account also pays interest
at a rate that is around the current rate of inflation.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

Jim Hart
June 9th, 2008, 04:31 AM
> Never use one, myself; it'd be too easy to forget a deducted amount and
> think I still had the bank balance that was there the last time I looked!

Dodi, I assume you are comparing it to the other method where you
manually write a payment instruction to your bank from a book of
printed paper forms, copy the amount on the form's stub, subtract from
the previous balance, etc etc. I grant you it's a well established
procedure, and if you like that discipline you could also copy the
debit card amount into your checkbook in the same way ;)

I don't visit the US so often now but I always found it interesting -
and a bit quaint - that checks were so common long after the arrival
of Visa/Mastercard etc. Memories of standing at the checkout while
someone wrote a check and showed 2 kinds ID for $10 of groceries!
Sounds like that hasn't changed much.

I think my banking life is more like Paul K's. I rarely write or
receive cheques now, maybe one a month. I only use a debit card if a
store doesn't like credit cards (unusual) or if i want some quick cash
- sometimes it's easier to get an extra $100 from the checkout while I
pay for the groceries than make a separate trip to the ATM. OTOH I
have noticed many people use debit cards for almost everything.

And to be accurate (as we like to be in this forum) I don't have a
separate debit card per se, it's just one piece of plastic that does
either - and unlocks the ATM of course.

Jim

JohnnyB
June 9th, 2008, 05:13 AM
Dick

>
> I see very little sense in using a debit card and never do so
> myself. One might as well pay in cash or by check.
>

Firstly, There are many people who have been bitten by the credit card
companyies. They are utterly rapacious with an average actual interest rate
in the region of 18-28% and it is far too easy to to get into serious debt.
Our whole culture leads you that way and the debt problem is enormous. Debt
counselling is currently a growth industry, (especially during a recession;
and that fact is even used as a measure of the depth of a recession)

Secondly, It is less than a year ago that the president of Barclaycard said
publically that he would mnever recommend his children to use credit
cards.What does he know that we don't?

Thirdly,that's OK if you can get a credit card. While we lived in the USA
some years ago an American friend of ours who had never used a card or ever
been in debt applied and was refused one because he had no credit history.
30 years later he is still unable to get a card for exactly the same
reason..
Some years ago my son (same initials, then same address, same bank, same
branch even) went over the top while in Ozzie on his bank account here in
UK. We paid off imediately we knew of the problem which was when the bank
sold the debt to a debt collection agency who promptly charged me: While I
am not really interested in getting a credit card it is necessary to have
one for travel in USA where many companies (eg car rental) will not take
cash unless you twist their arm via expensive phone calls to HQ. However,
despite my not being my son I am unable to get a credit card for 10 years,
nor is my wife - the address is "redlined" and there is nothing we can do
about it - even via the banking ombudsman - the problem in this case is that
the failure to pay initially occurred 12000 miles away and the
"offence"<endquote> was logged by an Australian Bank and doesn't come under
UK rules and there are no international rules.

I am not sure where I am going with this, but the fact remains that over
here in UK and in Europe generally many people use debit cards and if one is
on the lower side of the financial heap are encouraged to do so by the banks
because they then have a degree of control over our spending.

JohnnyB

Tony Abell
June 9th, 2008, 07:08 AM
On 09-Jun-08 at 03:48 Tim B wrote:

> At present my personal bank account is free of charges, though that
> situation may change. Use of the debit card is free to me, and costs the
> merchant a flat 60p ($1.20) or so, compared with 4% or so for a credit
> card. Cash withdrawals are free at the ATMs of most banks, but there is
> often a charge at those in other places. The account also pays interest
> at a rate that is around the current rate of inflation.

My account (the one tied to the debit card) pays at most a fraction of a percent
of interest.

It's clear that European banks have much more consumer-friendly policies and
services than US banks.

France International
June 9th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Costco accepts AMEX.

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Widdis
To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:22 PM
Subject: [Dixonary] Re: IE6 versus Firefox to access Compuserve


> far more advantageous to use a credit card



My bank provides rewards for using their debit card.



But still, I agree the delayed payment of credit cards usually trumps that, unless you are purchasing from a merchant who either does not accept credit cards (Arco Gas and Costco are two examples) or provides a discounted price for cash/debit compared to credit (since merchants typically pay 3-5% fees to the credit card companies – what’s really financing those interest free loans.)



--

Dan

Dodi Schultz
June 9th, 2008, 09:01 AM
>> Dodi, I assume you are comparing it to the other method where you
>> manually write a payment instruction to your bank from a book of
>> printed paper forms, copy the amount on the form's stub, subtract
>> from the previous balance, etc etc....you could also copy the debit
>> card amount into your checkbook in the same way ;)

By the time I get home, I might well forget.

>> I don't visit the US so often now but...Memories of standing at the
>> checkout while someone wrote a check and showed 2 kinds ID for $10
>> of groceries! Sounds like that hasn't changed much.

Sure, it has, Jim. People generally use credit or debit cards (or cash) for
groceries. I don't write checks in supermarkets, and most other people
don't either.

>> I don't have a separate debit card per se, it's just one piece of
>> plastic that does either - and unlocks the ATM of course.

I have three credit cards, actually, and a card--my ATM card--that comes
with the bank accounts. The latter CAN be used as a debit card; I use it to
get cash, as well as to transfer sums between accounts (the latter can also
be done over the phone).

--Dodi

EnDash@aol.com
June 9th, 2008, 09:03 AM
In a message dated 6/9/2008 6:13:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
johnnybarrs (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

Firstly, There are many people who have been bitten by the credit card
companyies. They are utterly rapacious with an average actual interest rate
in the region of 18-28% and it is far too easy to to get into serious debt.
Our whole culture leads you that way and the debt problem is enormous. Debt
counselling is currently a growth industry, (especially during a recession;
and that fact is even used as a measure of the depth of a recession)

Fortunately, I am not among them, as we pay in full each month and incur no
interest charges. Compared to a demit card, this is a free loan, plus nice
rewards.


Secondly, It is less than a year ago that the president of Barclaycard said
publically that he would never recommend his children to use credit
cards.What does he know that we don't?
Nothing I can think of.



Thirdly,that's OK if you can get a credit card. While we lived in the USA
some years ago an American friend of ours who had never used a card or ever
been in debt applied and was refused one because he had no credit history.
30 years later he is still unable to get a card for exactly the same
reason..
We have never had any problem obtaining credit cards. My wife has two, and I
have five -- because they serve different purpose and offer different special
advantages, e.g. frequent flyer miles with one, cash back on specific kinds
of purchase through another.

The secret is to pay your credit card bills on time, just as you would a
phone bill, rent, or any other obligation. People who carry balances instead are
spending beyond their ability to pay -- and choosing a very expensive method
to finance it at that.

That being said, I recognize that many people do not maintain this
discipline and do get themselves into gig trouble.

-- Dick




**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Judy Madnick
June 9th, 2008, 09:49 AM
From: EnDash (AT) aol (DOT) com

<< We have never had any problem obtaining credit cards. My
<< wife has two, and I
<< have five -- because they serve different purpose and offer
<< different special
<< advantages, e.g. frequent flyer miles with one, cash back on
<< specific kinds
<< of purchase through another.

Gosh, I thought *we* were bad with the number of general credit cards we have (i.e., not "store" cards)! I feel better now. <G> And, yes, we always pay our credit-card bills on time, so we don't worry about the interest rate. And the card companies keep raising our limit, probably hoping that we *will* have to pay interest!!

I was concerned that our credit score would suffer because we have multiple credit cards, but it's in the mid-800s -- no problem, I guess. <G>

Judy

Daniel B. Widdis
June 9th, 2008, 10:44 AM
JH> I always found it interesting - and a bit quaint -
JH> that checks were so common

We Americans are a stubborn bunch in changing our ways. Paper checks,
analog TV, and we still refuse to switch to the vastly superior metric
system. Some of us even won't get on the bandwagon and "upgrade" (?) to
Vista from the "obsolete" (?) Windows XP. Heck, some of us still use DOS, I
think.

And TAPCIS for email. ;)

--
Dan, who was using electronic checking since joining CheckFree in 1989,
paying a nontrivial fee for the privelege.

France International
June 9th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Hey, I was still using CP/M when W95 came out. Now I've "upgraded" to W98.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
To: <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: [Dixonary] Re: IE6 versus Firefox to access Compuserve


>
> JH> I always found it interesting - and a bit quaint -
> JH> that checks were so common
>
> We Americans are a stubborn bunch in changing our ways. Paper checks,
> analog TV, and we still refuse to switch to the vastly superior metric
> system. Some of us even won't get on the bandwagon and "upgrade" (?) to
> Vista from the "obsolete" (?) Windows XP. Heck, some of us still use DOS,
I
> think.
>
> And TAPCIS for email. ;)
>
> --
> Dan, who was using electronic checking since joining CheckFree in 1989,
> paying a nontrivial fee for the privelege.
>
>

Daniel B. Widdis
June 9th, 2008, 11:03 AM
MS> Costco accepts AMEX.



Only if you apply for their branded AMEX card.


Which we have, and paid the executive membership fee, and get 3% cash back.



--

Dan

EnDash@aol.com
June 9th, 2008, 11:17 AM
Some of us, including your truly, learned the hard way and at great monetary
cost, not to be always so trustful of switching from analog methods to
digital.

In the typesetting industry, for example, the early adopters of
electronically controlled photocomposition lost their shirts. Not only couldn't the
electronics to be trusted to work properly, but when there was trouble -- unlike
reliable systems such as handset type or linecasters, you couldn't actually
see the malfunction or test things with analog instruments.

Those electrons were misbehaving invisibly. The best you could do was to use
instruments like oscilloscopes to gauge second-hand what was really going on
inside the malfunctioning machinery.

Those of us who were early adopters of digital computer technology are still
having occasional fits of mysterious malfunctions that can't readily be
traced or fixed because of the extreme difficulty of diagnosing and repairing
what those little ones and zeroes are doing wrong out of our sight.

Similarly, a paper check or cash money are easily recognizable; just as the
metric system is totally confusing and unfamiliar to most Americans. And, it's
awfully handy to have a cancelled check for proof of a payment instead of
some electronic notation buried on a computer print-out or a facsimile image
printed along with many others on a bank statement sheet.

So, some of us who grew up with alternative systems rather than exclusively
in a world of electronics may remain a little more cautious and a little
slower to change over from handing some money across a counter or putting a check
in the mail than relying on online transactions that cannot so easily be
traced or proven if things go amiss.

-- Dick


In a message dated 6/9/2008 11:45:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

We Americans are a stubborn bunch in changing our ways. Paper checks,
analog TV, and we still refuse to switch to the vastly superior metric
system. Some of us even won't get on the bandwagon and "upgrade" (?) to
Vista from the "obsolete" (?) Windows XP. Heck, some of us still use DOS, I
think.




**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Paul Keating
June 9th, 2008, 12:03 PM
In the Netherlands many shops don't take credit cards. Restaurants that do will usually charge you for the privilege of presenting one. (And the credit card companies can't tell them not to because that would be illegal.) So most Dutch people don't have credit cards, and those that have use them mainly for Internet shopping.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Widdis

But still, I agree the delayed payment of credit cards usually trumps that, unless you are purchasing from a merchant who either does not accept credit cards (Arco Gas and Costco are two examples) or provides a discounted price for cash/debit compared to credit (since merchants typically pay 3-5% fees to the credit card companies - what's really financing those interest free loans.)

Paul Keating
June 9th, 2008, 12:11 PM
In the Netherlands many shops don't take credit cards. Restaurants that do will usually charge you for the privilege of presenting one. (And the credit card companies can't tell them not to because that would be illegal.) So most Dutch people don't have credit cards, and those that have use them mainly for Internet shopping.

Debit cards used to cost the merchant 12 eurocents (10p/$0.08), per transaction (and some will still charge you 25c if you use one to pay small amounts) but the machines are permanently on-line now, so there's no transaction-related cost. They only reason the merchants still do it, other than habit, is because they would have to pay to get their cash registers reprogrammed.

It's one of the world's cheapest and most efficient payment systems.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Widdis

But still, I agree the delayed payment of credit cards usually trumps that, unless you are purchasing from a merchant who either does not accept credit cards (Arco Gas and Costco are two examples) or provides a discounted price for cash/debit compared to credit (since merchants typically pay 3-5% fees to the credit card companies - what's really financing those interest free loans.)

Dodi Schultz
June 9th, 2008, 12:17 PM
>> And, it's awfully handy to have a cancelled check for proof of a
>> payment instead of some electronic notation buried on a computer
>> print-out or a facsimile image printed along with many others on a
>> bank statement sheet.

What bank still returns actual original checks, Dick? Mine (Citibank) went
to grouped images ages ago! I find them perfectly acceptable, since they
show both back and front of the check (I gather a few banks don't).

--Dodi

EnDash@aol.com
June 9th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Chase still returns actual checks except for those cleared through that
infernal ACH system, for which you get a notation and nothing else.

Similarly, Citi does not image all the cleared checks. Those that were
presented to it via ACH, such as the checks I mail to American Express, are
represented just by a notation on your statement.

Personally, I found the issuance and return of paper checks much more easy
to find, handle, assort and collate properly when doing my taxes.

The new system is entirely for the bank's convenience, not the customer's;
and they've eliminated any benefit of the float.

-- Dick



In a message dated 6/9/2008 1:20:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
SCHULTZ (AT) compuserve (DOT) com writes:

What bank still returns actual original checks, Dick? Mine (Citibank) went
to grouped images ages ago! I find them perfectly acceptable, since they
show both back and front of the check (I gather a few banks don't).





**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Tim B
June 9th, 2008, 12:40 PM
> It's clear that European banks have much more consumer-friendly policies and
> services than US banks.

My father, who retired many years ago after a lifetime in banking, but
before computers had taken over, was fond of saying that the USA didn't
have a banking _system_. I think his point was that the rules that
prevented a bank operating in more than a few states, together with the
anti-trust laws, made it very difficult for the many banks to get
together and get organised. I presume that now Visa and Mastercard exist
there must be ways round that problem, but there still doesn't seem to
be any way to have a bank check accepted nationally.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

EnDash@aol.com
June 9th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Well, as I said, we accumulated so many for different reasons.

My wife originally had only her own personal Visa card (plus use privileges
on my Amex). The Chase made an offer of cash back on certain purchases, so it
seemed to be a good idea to get that too.

I have had Amex for over 30 years and always liked it because of its
unlimited credit and lack of a strict payment deadline. However, a special AT&T card
came along which offered no fee lifetime, and a free year of ISP service, so
I would up with one of those. Then came a MasterCard for mileage on my
regular airline (which wasn't offered by Amex), and also because many retail and
Web merchants wouldn't take Amex.

Finally, MasterCard offered an additional special version with no magnetic
stripe. Could only be used for online or telephone orders, but they guaranteed
protection in case of any fraudulent use whatsoever.

So the guy who had a real dislike for credit cards years ago would up with
five in the family. They are also really great when travelling abroad, as you
don't have to carry a lot of cash and traveller's checks. MasterCard is
accepted all over the place.

Another delight was that my Citibank ATM (not credit) card worked fine in
cash machines at banks in Europe.

-- Dick




In a message dated 6/9/2008 1:33:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

Gosh, I thought *we* were bad with the number of general credit cards we
have (i.e., not "store" cards)! I feel better now. <G> And, yes, we always pay
our credit-card bills on time, so we don't worry about the interest rate. And
the card companies keep raising our limit, probably hoping that we *will*
have to pay interest!!




**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Daniel B. Widdis
June 9th, 2008, 01:00 PM
Dick> they've eliminated any benefit of the float



Please elaborate?



--

Dan

EnDash@aol.com
June 9th, 2008, 01:16 PM
When paper checks were physically transported between clearing houses in
part of the country, there was a delay of up to several days between the time
your payee received and deposited your check and the time it was actually
presented for payment to your bank and deducted from your account. That time gap
is known as "float," and some people were able to take advantage of it,
especially if large sums were involved.

For example, if you had an interest-bearing checking account in a New York
bank and write a sizeable check to a payee in California, you would still be
receiving interest on your money for a few days after the payee had deposited
or cashed your check on the coast.

Of course, this was much more meaningful when interest rates were
significantly higher than they are now.

-- Dick



In a message dated 6/9/2008 2:01:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

Dick> they've eliminated any benefit of the float
Please elaborate?




**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Judy Madnick
June 9th, 2008, 01:43 PM
From: EnDash (AT) aol (DOT) com

<< Well, as I said, we accumulated so many for different reasons.

Same here. I had a cash-back MasterCard that I had used for business purposes before I retired. Since the most you could receive back was $300, we took out a second (similar) MasterCard in my husband's name. Then we have a DiscoverCard that offers 5% cash back on different types of purchases, which change quarterly. Then . . . well, you get the picture. <G>

Judy

Paul Keating
June 9th, 2008, 04:46 PM
In most other countries, you don't get the waste. Either it stays at your
bank, where they microfilm it and shred the original (eg South Africa); or
the bank where it's deposited scans it and sends the image for settlement
(eg India, Singapore, Hong Kong); or the bank where it's deposited just
captures the details without imaging and forwards the cheque as data (eg UK,
Belgium, Denmark, Germany). This is called truncation. Sending the physical
paper around the country is what makes cheque processing slow, and
expensive, and uncertain, and obsolescent.

For me, downloading old transactions into a spreadsheet takes the place of
thumbing through old chequebooks.

--
Paul Keating
The Hague


----- Original Message -----
From: EnDash (AT) aol (DOT) com

And, it's awfully handy to have a cancelled check for proof of a payment
instead of some electronic notation buried on a computer print-out or a
facsimile image printed along with many others on a bank statement sheet.

Dodi Schultz
June 9th, 2008, 05:01 PM
TB>> My father, who retired many years ago after a lifetime in banking, but
before computers had taken over, was fond of saying that the USA didn't
have a banking _system_....there still doesn't seem to be any way to have a
bank check accepted nationally.

Eh? My checks on Citibank, a nationally chartered institution, are accepted
anywhere in the country.

--Dodi

Jim Hart
June 9th, 2008, 08:04 PM
The main thing I learn from this whole discussion is we like what
we're used to - and that's we as individuals or we as a country.
Banking only works because we trust the institutions and
methodologies, and that builds on precedent and familiarity. Paper
money was once viewed with suspicion too.

Which explains why I'm with Paul on not wanting my own cancelled
checks. I've never had them and can't see why I"d want all those bits
of paper when I also have a one-page monthly statement plus my own
record on the check butt. For the very rare disputed payment I can
still get verification from the bank (for a fee no doubt).

I probably don't need the paper statements either since I periodically
download the details into a spreadsheet where I can add my own
notation and then give that to my accountant.


Jim

On Jun 10, 7:46 am, "Paul Keating" <keat... (AT) acm (DOT) org> wrote:
> In most other countries, you don't get the waste. Either it stays at your

> For me, downloading old transactions into a spreadsheet takes the place of
> thumbing through old chequebooks.

> From: EnD... (AT) aol (DOT) com
> And, it's awfully handy to have a cancelled check for proof of a payment

Jim Hart
June 9th, 2008, 08:11 PM
On Jun 10, 12:01 am, Dodi Schultz <SCHU... (AT) compuserve (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> By the time I get home, I might well forget.

I meant that if you already carry a checkbook with you, you could
write the amount into that same as you would if your wrote the check.
Then again you could instead carry a small account book with you for
the same purpose, and maybe also use it to record your cash purchases
in another column. Then again I might be pulling your convalescent
leg.


Jim

Dodi Schultz
June 9th, 2008, 10:36 PM
JH>> I meant that if you already carry a checkbook with you, you could
write the amount into that same...Then again you could instead carry a
small account book with you...

Yeah, right, I need more things to carry with me. (I don't already carry
either of the above, just credit cards, & ATM card, & cash for occasional
purchases.)

--Dodi

earler
June 10th, 2008, 05:42 AM
No, it is not a debit card. However, there is a cap on it, as is always the case with bank cards. The key here is the chip on the card that prevents someone from using a stolen card. I spoke of debiting, which may have misled you. I meant a debit to your card, not from your account. Whatever you have debited to the card is automatically paid from your account at the beginning of the following month. If someone wishes credit over a period of time there are cards for that, issued by the department stores. But, the interest rates charged are high, though degressive for large amounts.

earler
June 10th, 2008, 05:44 AM
The old laws preventing banks from operating in many states has long been discarded. Look at citi, wachovia, hsbc, etc.. All have branches throughout the usa.

earler
June 10th, 2008, 05:48 AM
Costco accepts any amex card once you've shown your membership card at checkout.

earler
June 10th, 2008, 05:54 AM
The netherlands is like germany in this regard as concerns an allergy to credit cards. The french use credit cards for on the spot purchases and automatic debit for recurring bills such as telephone, isp, electricity, gas, etc. etc. However, french credit cards are automatically paid from ones bank account at the beginning of the next month. Cheques are still used though merchants prefer the security inherent in credit cards though they must pay a commission, probably also because they get immediate credit to their accounts rather than having to wait for cheques to clear. And, there is the nuisance of taking the cheques to the bank, too.

A few years, a debit card of sorts was attempted here in france, but it failed, mainly because the customer had to pay a fee when purchasing the card or topping it up.

Tim Bourne
June 10th, 2008, 09:35 AM
I mean over the counter at a shop. I almost always see a sign saying
something like "only local checks".

Best wishes,
Tim.

Judy Madnick
June 11th, 2008, 01:02 PM
From: Caryl <c.dreiblatt (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

<< > I am no longer able to use Internet Explorer 6 to log on to
<< Compuserve. I had to download Firefox so that I can access
<< the Compuserve forums. I don't know whether this is an issue
<< for IE in general or if I should upgrade to IE 7. Anyone know
<< anything about this?

I have the same problem . . . and solution.

<< CompuServe help told me that it is because of the newest IE7
<< update
<< and they are working on this, although he could not give me a
<< date,
<< and suggested that I install another browser on my computer.

I'm confused. Is it an IE6 or IE7 problem? Or both? It seems as though they upgraded something on their end that's affecting IE.

<< That is fine with me, but what happens when we travel and he
<< wants to
<< check his email on someone else's computer that has IE, or in
<< a hotel
<< Internet center?

Exactly!

This, together with all the spam I was receiving via Compuserve, is why I don't use Compuserve email. However, I do use Compuserve forums, and that's where I'm having a problem with IE6.

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL

Caryl
July 7th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Now that I have upgraded my Firefox to version 3 I cannot log onto
CompuServe through the web using Firefox either. Does anyone know how
I can access CompuServe using Firefox or IE7?

Thanks.

Caryl

On Jun 11, 2:02*pm, "Judy Madnick" <jmadn... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> * * * * * * * * From: Caryl <c.dreibl... (AT) verizon (DOT) net>
>
> * * * * * * * * << > I am no longer able to use Internet Explorer 6 to log on to
> * * * * * * * * << Compuserve. I had to download Firefox so that I can access
> * * * * * * * * << the Compuserve forums. I don't know whether this is an issue
> * * * * * * * * << for IE in general or if I should upgrade to IE 7. Anyone know
> * * * * * * * * << anything about this?
>
> I have the same problem . . . and solution.
>
> * * * * * * * * << CompuServe help told me that it is because of the newest IE7
> * * * * * * * * << update
> * * * * * * * * << and they are working on this, although he could not give me a
> * * * * * * * * << date,
> * * * * * * * * << and suggested that I install another browser on my computer.
>
> I'm confused. Is it an IE6 or IE7 problem? Or both? It seems as though they upgraded something on their end that's affecting IE.

Mike
July 8th, 2008, 02:44 AM
MS> Costco accepts AMEX.

Only if you apply for their branded AMEX card.
Uh, no. Any AmEx. I have the Costco-branded AmEx card, yet my partner's Gold AmEx is accepted just as readily.