[Dixonary] Round 1894: ELROQUITE - Final Posting

[Chuck]

The winner of round 1894 is Tim Bourne, whose definition "Unrepentant;
defiant." received 7 votes, plus 2 points for guessing the correct def.

John Barrs takes coveted second place with 4 points. And there were 3
players in runner-up position with 3 points: Wayne Scott, Nancy Shepherdson
and Mike Shefler.

The true definition was 13: "An apple-green to grey silicate of aluminium."
(The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles), which 4
perceptive players guessed.

*1.*Mischievous water spirit.
****Vote from:****Widdis
****Submitted by: Madnick, who scores natural 1.

*2.*A layer of large pigmented nerve cells in the midbrain.
****No votes
****Submitted by: Widdis.

*3.*A grass-green variety of chrysoberyl which shows a columbine-red
****color by transmitted or artificial light. It is used as a gem.
****Votes from:***Stevens, Weltz
****Submitted by: Crom, who scores natural 2.

*4.*A recluse or hermit.
****Votes from:***Savage, Shepherdson
****Submitted by: Carson, who scores natural 2.

*5.*A mineral substance used in the practice of Scientology.
****No votes
****Submitted by: Weltz.

*6.*A variety of orthoclase containing barium.
****Vote from:****Abell
****Submitted by: Lodge, who scores natural 1.

*7.*Unrepentant; defiant.
****Votes from:***Savage, Shepherdson, Carson, Abell, Madnick, Crom,
******************Weltz
****Submitted by: Bourne, who scores 7 + 2, total 9.

*8.*Silica from a lightning strike.
****Vote from:****Heimerson
****Submitted by: Shefler, who scores 1 + 2, total 3.

*9.*An infectious disease of silkworms, characterized by black spotting
****and stunted growth.
****No votes
****Submitted by: Heimerson, who scores 0 + 2, total 2.

10.*A quartzite found on the Rock of Gibraltar.
****Votes from:***Shefler, Lodge
****Submitted by: Cunningham, who scores natural 2.

11.*A reddish sandstone rock found only in the Gobi Desert.
****No votes
****Submitted by: Savage.

12.*1. Foamy flowerheads such as meadowsweet (ulmaria filipendula) and
****elder (sambucus nigra) 2. more usually; The sparkling wine made
****from these flowers.
****Votes from:***Hirst, Stevens
****Submitted by: Barrs, who scores 2 + 2, total 4.

13.*An apple-green to grey silicate of aluminium.
****Votes from:***Heimerson, Bourne, Shefler, Barrs
****Real definition from The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on
Historical Principles

14.*A variation of rococo art incorporating mythical figures such as
****unicorns and faeries. [<mistranslation by unknown English rococo
****revivalist(s) circa 1850.]
****Vote from:****Madnick
****Submitted by: Hirst, who scores natural 1.

15.*A spherical cactus with inch long spines and bright red flowers.
****Votes from:***Widdis, Hirst
****Submitted by: Stevens, who scores natural 2.

16.*A dressage maneuver in which the horses kneel with their forelegs
****and touch their noses to the ground.
****No votes
****Submitted by: Schultz.

17.*Balanced; symmetrical.
****Votes from:***Schultz, Bourne, Crom
****Submitted by: Shepherdson, who scores natural 3.

18.*Similar to the previous statement.
****Votes from:***Schultz, Carson, Barrs
****Submitted by: Scott, who scores natural 3.

19.*A bitter herb (genus Saphonacea) used in the Mediterranean for
****medicinal preparations.
****Vote from:****Lodge
****Submitted by: Abell, who scores natural 1.

****Player*********Def*Voted*for*Votes*Guess*DP*To tal
****------*********---*---------*-----*-----*--*-----
****Bourne***********7***13*&*17*****7*****2********9
****Barrs***********12***13*&*18*****2*****2********4
****Scott***********18******N/V******3*****0********3
****Shepherdson*****17****4*&*7******3*****0********3
****Shefler**********8***10*&*13*****1*****2********3
****Carson***********4****7*&*18*****2*****0********2
****Crom*************3****7*&*17*****2*****0********2
****Cunningham******10******N/V******2*****0********2
****Stevens*********15****3*&*12*****2*****0********2
****Heimerson********9****8*&*13***********2********2
****Abell***********19****6*&*7******1*****0********1
****Hirst***********14***12*&*15*****1*****0********1
****Lodge************6***10*&*19*****1*****0********1
****Madnick**********1****7*&*14*****1*****0********1
****Savage**********11****4*&*7************0********0
****Schultz*********16***17*&*18***********0********0
****Weltz************5****3*&*7************0********0
****Widdis***********2****1*&*15***********0********0

[Tim B]

> The winner of round 1894 is Tim Bourne, whose definition "Unrepentant;
> defiant." received 7 votes, plus 2 points for guessing the correct def.

Wow!

Just going out to give a tutorial. New word coming up before the end of
the evening.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

[France International]

No big deal, but I am just curious why you truncated my def, which was
submitted as "fused sand or silica from a lightning strike". At the time, I
thought maybe you had combined it with another def.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck" <chuck (AT) tdi (DOT) ca>
To: <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:05 AM
Subject: [Dixonary] Round 1894: ELROQUITE - Final Posting


>
> The winner of round 1894 is Tim Bourne, whose definition "Unrepentant;
> defiant." received 7 votes, plus 2 points for guessing the correct def.
>
> John Barrs takes coveted second place with 4 points. And there were 3
> players in runner-up position with 3 points: Wayne Scott, Nancy
Shepherdson
> and Mike Shefler.
>
> The true definition was 13: "An apple-green to grey silicate of
aluminium."
> (The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles), which 4
> perceptive players guessed.
>
> 1. Mischievous water spirit.
> Vote from: Widdis
> Submitted by: Madnick, who scores natural 1.
>
> 2. A layer of large pigmented nerve cells in the midbrain.
> No votes
> Submitted by: Widdis.
>
> 3. A grass-green variety of chrysoberyl which shows a columbine-red
> color by transmitted or artificial light. It is used as a gem.
> Votes from: Stevens, Weltz
> Submitted by: Crom, who scores natural 2.
>
> 4. A recluse or hermit.
> Votes from: Savage, Shepherdson
> Submitted by: Carson, who scores natural 2.
>
> 5. A mineral substance used in the practice of Scientology.
> No votes
> Submitted by: Weltz.
>
> 6. A variety of orthoclase containing barium.
> Vote from: Abell
> Submitted by: Lodge, who scores natural 1.
>
> 7. Unrepentant; defiant.
> Votes from: Savage, Shepherdson, Carson, Abell, Madnick, Crom,
> Weltz
> Submitted by: Bourne, who scores 7 + 2, total 9.
>
> 8. Silica from a lightning strike.
> Vote from: Heimerson
> Submitted by: Shefler, who scores 1 + 2, total 3.
>
> 9. An infectious disease of silkworms, characterized by black spotting
> and stunted growth.
> No votes
> Submitted by: Heimerson, who scores 0 + 2, total 2.
>
> 10. A quartzite found on the Rock of Gibraltar.
> Votes from: Shefler, Lodge
> Submitted by: Cunningham, who scores natural 2.
>
> 11. A reddish sandstone rock found only in the Gobi Desert.
> No votes
> Submitted by: Savage.
>
> 12. 1. Foamy flowerheads such as meadowsweet (ulmaria filipendula) and
> elder (sambucus nigra) 2. more usually; The sparkling wine made
> from these flowers.
> Votes from: Hirst, Stevens
> Submitted by: Barrs, who scores 2 + 2, total 4.
>
> 13. An apple-green to grey silicate of aluminium.
> Votes from: Heimerson, Bourne, Shefler, Barrs
> Real definition from The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on
> Historical Principles
>
> 14. A variation of rococo art incorporating mythical figures such as
> unicorns and faeries. [<mistranslation by unknown English rococo
> revivalist(s) circa 1850.]
> Vote from: Madnick
> Submitted by: Hirst, who scores natural 1.
>
> 15. A spherical cactus with inch long spines and bright red flowers.
> Votes from: Widdis, Hirst
> Submitted by: Stevens, who scores natural 2.
>
> 16. A dressage maneuver in which the horses kneel with their forelegs
> and touch their noses to the ground.
> No votes
> Submitted by: Schultz.
>
> 17. Balanced; symmetrical.
> Votes from: Schultz, Bourne, Crom
> Submitted by: Shepherdson, who scores natural 3.
>
> 18. Similar to the previous statement.
> Votes from: Schultz, Carson, Barrs
> Submitted by: Scott, who scores natural 3.
>
> 19. A bitter herb (genus Saphonacea) used in the Mediterranean for
> medicinal preparations.
> Vote from: Lodge
> Submitted by: Abell, who scores natural 1.
>
> Player Def Voted for Votes Guess DP Total
> ------ --- --------- ----- ----- -- -----
> Bourne 7 13 & 17 7 2 9
> Barrs 12 13 & 18 2 2 4
> Scott 18 N/V 3 0 3
> Shepherdson 17 4 & 7 3 0 3
> Shefler 8 10 & 13 1 2 3
> Carson 4 7 & 18 2 0 2
> Crom 3 7 & 17 2 0 2
> Cunningham 10 N/V 2 0 2
> Stevens 15 3 & 12 2 0 2
> Heimerson 9 8 & 13 2 2
> Abell 19 6 & 7 1 0 1
> Hirst 14 12 & 15 1 0 1
> Lodge 6 10 & 19 1 0 1
> Madnick 1 7 & 14 1 0 1
> Savage 11 4 & 7 0 0
> Schultz 16 17 & 18 0 0
> Weltz 5 3 & 7 0 0
> Widdis 2 1 & 15 0 0
>
>

[Bill Hirst]

I ran across this definition for ELROQUITE after voting. IMO, it's
vastly superior to the one posted. The doubt makes it quite
unbelievable.

"a doubtful hydrous silicate of iron and aluminum, with phosphate of
chromium."

http://tinyurl.com/2wkmf4 (page 84)

-Bill

[Hugo Kornelis]

Hi Chuck,

> I'm not sure what you mean by "the doubt makes it quite unbelievable".
> Are you referring to the word "doubtful" in your vastly superior
> definition?

I can't and won't speak for Bill. But the way I interpreted his message was
that it's quite unusual to see the word "doubtful" in a dictionary
definition (as if the dictionary researchers ran out of time before the
deadline or so), and that hence, this word makes the very definition itself
"unbelievable". Which, of course, makes it a great (or even "superior")
definition for the game of Dixonary, since players will never believe that a
"doubtful" definition comes from a dictionary.

I'm sure I'll soon know if I interpreted Bill correctly or not.

> I was not aware that, having found a word, in a dictionary, and determined
> to deal it, I was in any way obliged to search for superior, conflicting,
> or even confirming definitions in other dictionaries or publications.

You aren't. The rules say that you can deal a word from any "accepted"
dictionary. Exactly which dictionaries are or are not "accepted" is
undefined, but I don't think that anyone would challenge a definition from
The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles.

I think Bill just wanted to share his excitement over finding a dictionary
definition that would have been ideal for this game, but for the fact that
the word had already been played.

I hope I'm right :)

Best, Hugo

[Chuck]

Bill -

The definition provided was from page 595 of my The Shorter Oxford
English Dictionary on Historical Principles. The first edition was
published in 1933, my revised third edition in 1944, and reprinted in
1965. There is a date on the citation of 1882, which disagrees with
some of the material you reference (1892). There is an article on page
676 of The Canadian Mineralogist which was received in 1962 (not sure
when it was published) titled ELROQUITE AND PHOSPHOCHROMITE DISCREDITED.

This would, I suppose, make the Oxford University Press of London, UK,
guilty of reprinting an unrevised edition and failing to remove
Elroquite after it was discredited a year or two before the reprinting.
They did also leave out the phosphate of chromium, as well as over a
dozen other trace components. Perhaps in 1882 the X-Ray diffraction
techniques were not as refined. Having analyzed an X-Ray diffraction
plate with a desktop calculator (in the late 60's), something which
takes many hours, I can appreciate that in 1882 they might not bother
past a certain point if they were doing the math by hand.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the doubt makes it quite unbelievable".
Are you referring to the word "doubtful" in your vastly superior
definition? Does it make the superior definition unbelievable? Does it
make the definition I submitted unbelievable? What do you mean by
unbelievable? Whom are you not believing? Myself? The Oxford
University Press? I'm confused, and don't know how to respond.

I was not aware that, having found a word, in a dictionary, and
determined to deal it, I was in any way obliged to search for superior,
conflicting, or even confirming definitions in other dictionaries or
publications. If my understanding is incorrect, I would be totally
willing to stand corrected and offer my humble apologies and amend my
future behaviour.

I would appreciate some explanation, and if appropriate (or even
possible) a ruling from the rules mother.

Thanks,

Chuck

[France International]

Chuck,

I would imagine that x-ray diffraction techniques were quite unrefined in
1882 since x-rays weren't discovered until 1895.

--Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck" <chuck (AT) tdi (DOT) ca>
To: <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: [Dixonary] Re: Round 1894: ELROQUITE - Final Posting


>
> Bill -
>
> The definition provided was from page 595 of my The Shorter Oxford
> English Dictionary on Historical Principles. The first edition was
> published in 1933, my revised third edition in 1944, and reprinted in
> 1965. There is a date on the citation of 1882, which disagrees with
> some of the material you reference (1892). There is an article on page
> 676 of The Canadian Mineralogist which was received in 1962 (not sure
> when it was published) titled ELROQUITE AND PHOSPHOCHROMITE DISCREDITED.
>
> This would, I suppose, make the Oxford University Press of London, UK,
> guilty of reprinting an unrevised edition and failing to remove
> Elroquite after it was discredited a year or two before the reprinting.
> They did also leave out the phosphate of chromium, as well as over a
> dozen other trace components. Perhaps in 1882 the X-Ray diffraction
> techniques were not as refined. Having analyzed an X-Ray diffraction
> plate with a desktop calculator (in the late 60's), something which
> takes many hours, I can appreciate that in 1882 they might not bother
> past a certain point if they were doing the math by hand.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "the doubt makes it quite unbelievable".
> Are you referring to the word "doubtful" in your vastly superior
> definition? Does it make the superior definition unbelievable? Does it
> make the definition I submitted unbelievable? What do you mean by
> unbelievable? Whom are you not believing? Myself? The Oxford
> University Press? I'm confused, and don't know how to respond.
>
> I was not aware that, having found a word, in a dictionary, and
> determined to deal it, I was in any way obliged to search for superior,
> conflicting, or even confirming definitions in other dictionaries or
> publications. If my understanding is incorrect, I would be totally
> willing to stand corrected and offer my humble apologies and amend my
> future behaviour.
>
> I would appreciate some explanation, and if appropriate (or even
> possible) a ruling from the rules mother.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck
>

[Chuck]

Mike -

I was worried about that, but not enough to do any more research. Since
there is also an 1892 citation for the word, presumably the analysis
might have occurred shortly after. I wonder when X-ray diffraction for
analysis of crystal structures came into use? I can attest that by the
late 60's it was still VERY laborious. Probably within a few years
after my encounter the math was done with computers. Now the pattern
capture and measurements are also certainly computer performed. It's
quite fascinating how much information is contained in what appears to
be a random scattering of spots on film.

- Chuck


France International wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> I would imagine that x-ray diffraction techniques were quite unrefined in
> 1882 since x-rays weren't discovered until 1895.
>
> --Mike
>
>