Legacy Software under Vista

[Guerri Stevens]

So far, most of my older software runs under Vista. But I have one old, old DOS application which doesn't run correctly. Yesterday I had a chat with myself about the possible desirability of moving away from some of my older stuff, but I was not convinced. For one thing, in my experience when something goes wrong in Windows, recovery is at best uncertain, and at worst impossible. Backups or no backups.

Anyway, does anyone have any tips on how to solve problems with the old stuff, or where there are people who might have such tips? I can supply details about what's wrong if anyone here is interested.

[davidh]

Have you tried the Vintage Computing forum on community.netscape.com i.e. compuserve ?

[earler]

Unless the old dos programs hit the hardware you shouldn't have any problems. Also, you should note that you can run those programs as if they were running under win95 or win98, too.

[Judy G. Russell]

Anyway, does anyone have any tips on how to solve problems with the old stuff, or where there are people who might have such tips? I can supply details about what's wrong if anyone here is interested.What I've found is most effective is to describe exactly what I use the old program to do and ask if anyone has a suggestion for that under whatever OS I'm using now.

[Guerri Stevens]

Unless the old dos programs hit the hardware you shouldn't have any problems. Also, you should note that you can run those programs as if they were running under win95 or win98, too.
I tried all the compatibility options. None worked. This particular application ran just fine under Windows 2000 and Windows XP. I don't think it is directly accessing the hardware.

[Guerri Stevens]

What I've found is most effective is to describe exactly what I use the old program to do and ask if anyone has a suggestion for that under whatever OS I'm using now.
Here's what the program is and does: its name is FM and it is a DOS file manager that was part of old WordPerfect Office suite (not to be confused with the new, Windows WP suite). I do use Windows Explorer for most of my looking around for files, etc. However, FM will do some things that Explorer will not do, at least as far as I can tell. Here are a couple that immediately come to mind.

FM will allow me to look at a file. I mean directly, without having to open the file in whatever application it's associated with. And as I am sure you know, if there is no association for a given file under Windows, it will demand that you choose how to open the file.

FM will allow me to display the file in hexadecimal. Sure, I could probably find an appllication that will do that, but then I would have one application for that, and one for something else, and so on, when FM gives it all to me.

One thing FM does not do is recognize long file names. That is a drawback.

I don't use the program often any more and possibly I could live without it.

Let me also describe its problem: when displaying the list of files in a folder, the display is garbled. Another program in the suite also has the ability to show a list of files, and although there are minor differences in the way the displays look (FM puts commas in the file size numbers for instance) they would look the same if FM were working properly. What happens is that letters are left off the file names, sometimes question marks are inserted, the extensions and funny, and things are not in the right order, which is really weird. The captions that should be at the top of the screen are somewhere in the middle, for example. I can't even come up with a theory about how it could look the way it does, such as FM having generated really long lines that were wrapped incorrectly to fit the display!

[ndebord]

Here's what the program is and does: its name is FM and it is a DOS file manager that was part of old WordPerfect Office suite (not to be confused with the new, Windows WP suite). I do use Windows Explorer for most of my looking around for files, etc. However, FM will do some things that Explorer will not do, at least as far as I can tell. Here are a couple that immediately come to mind.

FM will allow me to look at a file. I mean directly, without having to open the file in whatever application it's associated with. And as I am sure you know, if there is no association for a given file under Windows, it will demand that you choose how to open the file.

FM will allow me to display the file in hexadecimal. Sure, I could probably find an appllication that will do that, but then I would have one application for that, and one for something else, and so on, when FM gives it all to me.

One thing FM does not do is recognize long file names. That is a drawback.

I don't use the program often any more and possibly I could live without it.

Let me also describe its problem: when displaying the list of files in a folder, the display is garbled. Another program in the suite also has the ability to show a list of files, and although there are minor differences in the way the displays look (FM puts commas in the file size numbers for instance) they would look the same if FM were working properly. What happens is that letters are left off the file names, sometimes question marks are inserted, the extensions and funny, and things are not in the right order, which is really weird. The captions that should be at the top of the screen are somewhere in the middle, for example. I can't even come up with a theory about how it could look the way it does, such as FM having generated really long lines that were wrapped incorrectly to fit the display!

Guerri,

Try that other old program called DC (Dos Controller), an optimized version of the Norton Commander. Works in XP, don't know about Vista.


If you can't find it, I'll send it on to you if you have an email address that handles files.

[earler]

I'd not be surprised if fm isn't doing things in dos that are no longer allowed.

[Guerri Stevens]

I'd not be surprised if fm isn't doing things in dos that are no longer allowed.If something isn't allowed, wouldn't some kind of error be reported?

[Judy G. Russell]

Here's what the program is and does: its name is FM and it is a DOS file manager that was part of old WordPerfect Office suite (not to be confused with the new, Windows WP suite). Search Google for Vista windows explorer alternatives and you'll get a bunch of possibilities.

[ndebord]

Here's what the program is and does: its name is FM and it is a DOS file manager that was part of old WordPerfect Office suite (not to be confused with the new, Windows WP suite). I do use Windows Explorer for most of my looking around for files, etc. However, FM will do some things that Explorer will not do, at least as far as I can tell. Here are a couple that immediately come to mind.

FM will allow me to look at a file. I mean directly, without having to open the file in whatever application it's associated with. And as I am sure you know, if there is no association for a given file under Windows, it will demand that you choose how to open the file.

FM will allow me to display the file in hexadecimal. Sure, I could probably find an appllication that will do that, but then I would have one application for that, and one for something else, and so on, when FM gives it all to me.

One thing FM does not do is recognize long file names. That is a drawback.

I don't use the program often any more and possibly I could live without it.

Let me also describe its problem: when displaying the list of files in a folder, the display is garbled. Another program in the suite also has the ability to show a list of files, and although there are minor differences in the way the displays look (FM puts commas in the file size numbers for instance) they would look the same if FM were working properly. What happens is that letters are left off the file names, sometimes question marks are inserted, the extensions and funny, and things are not in the right order, which is really weird. The captions that should be at the top of the screen are somewhere in the middle, for example. I can't even come up with a theory about how it could look the way it does, such as FM having generated really long lines that were wrapped incorrectly to fit the display!

Guerri,

BTW, I too used FM and could not get it to work under XP, which is when I found DC.

[Jeff]

Guerri,

BTW, I too used FM and could not get it to work under XP, which is when I found DC.

I have, and am still using, WP's "Editor" from late 1994; ED.EXE, under XP Pro SP2. It's still as useful, awesome actually, as it was when I first migrated to it from WP's Program Editor of about a year earlier. All of ED is <150k, if anyone would like to ummm review a copy.

- Jeff

[ndebord]

I have, and am still using, WP's "Editor" from late 1994; ED.EXE, under XP Pro SP2. It's still as useful, awesome actually, as it was when I first migrated to it from WP's Program Editor of about a year earlier. All of ED is <150k, if anyone would like to ummm review a copy.

- Jeff

Jeff,

I too had ED, but don't use it much. I use QEdit and some tools for it instead and Metapad instead of Notepad. Still keep all the WP 5.1+ and DP files though.

[davidh]

This is probably off topic, but here goes anyway:

I don't know about Vista, but

in XP the old MS-DOS programs EDIT and DEBUG are still working and installed.

DEBUG is a royal PITA to use to modify binary files, but, at least for small files, it is a possibility (with much effort).

I have forgotten how to do stuff with debug but at least it has HELP, e.g. DEBUG /?

etc.

David

[Guerri Stevens]

I have, and am still using, WP's "Editor" from late 1994; ED.EXE, under XP Pro SP2. It's still as useful, awesome actually, as it was when I first migrated to it from WP's Program Editor of about a year earlier. All of ED is <150k, if anyone would like to ummm review a copy.
For what it's worth, ED still works under Vista. At least as far as I've tried it. Mine is dated 1992. I looked around and couldn't find anything later, and I doubt that there was a CD release of that software, but I could be wrong. ED has the List Files (F5) feature, which is what FM does as well, although with slight differences. ED's display is fine, whereas FM's is garbled. Maybe I should just use ED instead; it will do hexadecimal displays too. Odd that it will work and FM will not.

I don't use ED very often any more. I have the whole WordPerfect Office suite of programs, and still use the Calendar heavily, the others less often. I still use two other WP products: PlanPerfect (the spreadsheet) and DataPerfect (database). I'm in the process of converting spreadsheets to Excel, but this means becoming acquainted again with the Excel macros, so I'm dragging my feet.

[Jeff]

My WP Calendar is dated 10/1988 and I've used it every day since then. Editor is dated 8/1994, and superseded PE of ~1988. Calendar has always had its own directory. Editor lives in ZAPCIS, where T6 lives. Easier on the .bat

- Jeff

[ndebord]

So far, most of my older software runs under Vista. But I have one old, old DOS application which doesn't run correctly.

Guerri,

Did that old DC program work under Vista?

<inquiring minds and all that>

[Guerri Stevens]

My WP Calendar is dated 10/1988 and I've used it every day since then. Editor is dated 8/1994, and superseded PE of ~1988. Calendar has always had its own directory. Editor lives in ZAPCIS, where T6 lives. Easier on the .bat

My CL.EXE is 1/31/92. I wonder why I don't have a later version of ED? Maybe one came with WordPerfect and I never installed it.

I am glad there is someone besides me still using the Calendar.

[Guerri Stevens]

Guerri,

Did that old DC program work under Vista?

<inquiring minds and all that>
And well you might inquire. I didn't receive it unless you disguised it as an ad for viagra and it ended up in the spam section. You could try sending it with a .txt extension. I couldn't find anything that said messages were blocked. I hope it didn't end up in the spam group which I tend to delete without looking.

If Google isn't going to accept it, I can give you another Email address.

[Lindsey]

FM will allow me to look at a file. I mean directly, without having to open the file in whatever application it's associated with. And as I am sure you know, if there is no association for a given file under Windows, it will demand that you choose how to open the file.

FM will allow me to display the file in hexadecimal. Sure, I could probably find an appllication that will do that, but then I would have one application for that, and one for something else, and so on, when FM gives it all to me.
You might want to take a look at UltraEdit (http://www.ultraedit.com/products/ultraedit.html). It's not an Explorer substitute, but you can use it to look at any file, either in text or in hexadecimal. (You can also edit in hexadecimal mode.) It has a great macro facility, and it also has a column mode, which I have found enormously useful when doing copy-and-paste of multiple lines from wide screens.

The installation procedure puts UltraEdit as an option on the menu that pops up when you right-click on a file name in Explorer, which allows you to open the file with UltraEdit directly from Explorer.

Word to the wise: Even the most positive reviews on the CNet site warn not to install the Yahoo toolbar that comes with the latest version unless you are really sure you want it. Apparently it automatically re-directs all 404 page errors to the Yahoo site, which is probably not what most people really want to do.

Extended review of version 13 (I think the latest one is 14) here (http://www.kickstartnews.com/reviews/productivity/ultraedit32_professional.html).

--Lindsey

[Dan in Saint Louis]

You might want to take a look at UltraEdit (http://www.ultraedit.com/products/ultraedit.html).
I've had good luck with Quick View Plus. It can open most file formats, and if you have any old WordPerfect disks around you already have a free copy.

[ndebord]

And well you might inquire. I didn't receive it unless you disguised it as an ad for viagra and it ended up in the spam section. You could try sending it with a .txt extension. I couldn't find anything that said messages were blocked. I hope it didn't end up in the spam group which I tend to delete without looking.

If Google isn't going to accept it, I can give you another Email address.

Guerri,

I will try it again. I'll call the extension DC.GGG, which you would rename to DC.ZIP. Don't know why it didn't get through and I never got an error message.

<sigh>

[Guerri Stevens]

Guerri,

Did that old DC program work under Vista?

Don't know yet, but there's a chance I'll get to it today. I have a huge to-do list, a lot of which involves working outdoors, and it's expected to be rainy. So I can probably do indoor things today.

[ndebord]

Don't know yet, but there's a chance I'll get to it today. I have a huge to-do list, a lot of which involves working outdoors, and it's expected to be rainy. So I can probably do indoor things today.

Guerri,

Whenever or another program. It is not encouraging to realize that some apps don't work under Vista.

[Guerri Stevens]

Whenever or another program. It is not encouraging to realize that some apps don't work under Vista.
I finally got around to trying DC. It is interesting. In the first place, you wanted to know whether it works under Vista. As far as I can tell, yes it does. It comes up and displays the list of files in the default folder (directory for you old-fashioned folks like me). They look OK to me. FM (File Manager), the program I was complaining about, produces a list of the files, but the list is odd. If you're curious, I can send you an example. I thought maybe the file structure under Vista had been changed slightly, so I tried FM on my external hard drive, formatted before Vista came on the scene and I get the same result. But I digress.

As for DC, I didn't play with it much. One thing I noticed which is odd is that I cannot change the screen layout. I have a Command Prompt shortcut on my desktop and I set the screen (window) size, and I have another DOS program shortcut that also allowed me to set the screen size, but I am pretty sure that shortcut is really a .BAT file. If I open my command prompt window and start DC from there, it immediately changes the window size. If I open it directly, it will allow me to get to the properties and change the window size there, but it will ignore the change.

What's also interesting, and here my memory may be faulty, I thought that in Windows XP and/or Windows 2000 when you created a DOS/Command window, you could say "apply these settings to others" or something like that. Either that's not available in Vista or I haven't found it. I have not yet made sense of the way Vista handles folders, though. In earlier Windows it was possible to say that when looking at a folder you wanted to see the details view and you could apply that to all folders, then you could (I think) choose individual folders that you wanted to be different.

In Vista, you can say "apply this view to all similar folders" but I can't tell what that means and I can't tell whether it does apply the view to anything else (I am always having to reset the views). So I don't know whether DC's window size has something to do with how DC looks or whether DC itself is responsible for that. Another interesting thing about Vista is that using Windows Explorer I tried to rename the folder containing DC and the other stuff you sent me. It looked like Vista had *copied* the folder because in the folders pane, there appeared to be the old folder and the renamed folder. But the old one was spurious.

I don't have the service pack having been advised to wait, so this may be something that will be corrected. And of course if there is something missing or not right about DOS application support, I doubt that much attention will be paid to it.

I thought this Windows cr^H^H stuff was supposed to be so intuitive, but I must have the wrong kind of intuition.

[sidney]

It is not encouraging to realize that some apps don't work under Vista.

Joel Spolsky has written a very good essay, Martian Headsets (http://joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html) about a fundamental philosophical shift at Microsoft about four years ago that is resulting in problems like this in Vista and in IE 8. The essay is a bit long and technical but is an excellent read.

[ndebord]

I
I thought this Windows cr^H^H stuff was supposed to be so intuitive, but I must have the wrong kind of intuition.


Guerri,

Vista certainly is strange. I use my DOS apps and do use XP's ability to change screen size, fonts, etc. And I want my folders too. The more I hear about Vista the more I am reminded of OSX and we choose how you do things mentality.

(Am going out now to find XP Pro and buy it!)

P.S. IF I do buy it, which version should I get and which should I avoid? Help!