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Judy G. Russell
March 10th, 2008, 03:32 PM
The headlines in today's newspapers and online makes me want to scream: "Earth to Spitzer! Earth to Spitzer! Are there any operating brain cells in that cranium???"

Here's a guy who had an absolutely stellar reputation as a prosecutor and State Attorney General who appears to have gone completely nuts as governor of New York. The whole flap with the GOP Senate Majority leader Joe Bruno was just amazing (allegations of misusing state resources to try to prove that Bruno had misused state resources) and now this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23561606/)???

Is it just arrogance ("I'm untouchable") or is he just plain STUPID?

Dan in Saint Louis
March 10th, 2008, 04:32 PM
is he just plain STUPID?Probably. Reminds of George Peach, the long-gone chief of the DA's department in Saint Louis, a real straight-laced anti-pornography law-and-order guy, who was busted in a downtown hotel with a hooker. He had registered there under the name "Larry Johnson." http://tinyurl.com/2b2mg2

Lindsey
March 10th, 2008, 10:43 PM
The headlines in today's newspapers and online makes me want to scream: "Earth to Spitzer! Earth to Spitzer! Are there any operating brain cells in that cranium???"
My first reaction to seeing the news of that investigation was "Say it ain't so, El!" But then when I saw on the NYT site that he had pretty much admitted that he was, indeed, "Client 9," yeah, my thought was the same as yours: HOW COULD HE BE SO STUPID??!!! (OK, I know the answer to that one: the nether head is not all that bright.)

And to think that about a year ago, I was regretting that he didn't have enough political experience under his belt to run for president. Oy.

The only small amount of comfort to be gotten here, I think, is that at least the Mayflower Hotel is a classier venue than a men's room at the Minneapolis airport. :(

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 10th, 2008, 10:53 PM
A TalkingPointsMemo reader is already predicting (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/182723.php) Spitzer as the winner of a 2008 Golden Duke Award in the category of "Egregious Carnality." <sigh>

--Lindsey

Mike
March 11th, 2008, 01:41 AM
...classier venue than a men's room at the Minneapolis airport.
Leno made a similar quip.

"Spitzer paid $5,000 for one woman. Upon hearing this, Sen. Larry Craig said, 'I would have done him for free.'"

Mike
March 11th, 2008, 01:42 AM
I'd had a lot of respect for him, and was wondering where he'd go next.

Now I know. <sigh>

davidh
March 11th, 2008, 04:39 AM
If life is fair, shouldn't he at least become a beloved elder statesman like Pres. Clinton (who apparently committed perjury). Or maybe we should admire the Gov. a little less because he might not have been a good enough womanizer to get it for free the way the Pres. did?

Furthermore, since "gentelmen's clubs" and "lap dances" are an indispensable part of American culture, shouldn't he be admired for patronizing a rather more upscale business?

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 08:05 AM
my thought was the same as yours: HOW COULD HE BE SO STUPID??!!!Truly amazing... and I felt so sorry for his wife... she was totally ashen-faced.

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 08:06 AM
I'd had a lot of respect for him, and was wondering where he'd go next. Now I know. <sigh><Sigh> indeed. What an incredible blunder.

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 08:10 AM
If life is fair, shouldn't he at least become a beloved elder statesman like Pres. Clinton (who apparently committed perjury). Or maybe we should admire the Gov. a little less because he might not have been a good enough womanizer to get it for free the way the Pres. did?Clinton never claimed to be Mr. Clean, riding into Washington (or Albany) with a mandate to root out all kinds of corruption and misdeeds. He promised to be a decent President in his presidential duties, and he did that. Spitzer OTOH claimed to be cleaner than clean...

Dan in Saint Louis
March 11th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Spitzer OTOH claimed to be cleaner than clean...
As did George Peach in Saint Louis. He was known for his vigorous attacks on porn, even on bookstores that carried adult material. Until, that is, he was caught in a downtown hotel with a hooker.

davidh
March 11th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Clinton never claimed to be Mr. Clean, riding into Washington (or Albany) with a mandate to root out all kinds of corruption and misdeeds. He promised to be a decent President in his presidential duties, and he did that. Spitzer OTOH claimed to be cleaner than clean...

I'll have to remember to tell everyone that I'm a dirtbag so that when I finally do get arrested, indicted, and tried, I can use my humility and forthrightness as a defense to bargain for a reduced sentence.

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 06:59 PM
"Spitzer paid $5,000 for one woman. Upon hearing this, Sen. Larry Craig said, 'I would have done him for free.'"
And Florida's Bob Allen would possibly have paid Spitzer (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/016257.php) for the privilege!

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Truly amazing... and I felt so sorry for his wife... she was totally ashen-faced.
His wife and his three daughters as well.

There was an interesting piece on the NYT web site today exploring the question of "Why do politicians keep getting caught in sex scandals?" The answer, in a nutshell, seemed to be (1) it's a power thing; and (2) politicians tend to be type "T" (thrill-seeking) personalities, who get their kicks from taking big risks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/nyregion/11cnd-scandals.html?hp

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 07:13 PM
As did George Peach in Saint Louis. He was known for his vigorous attacks on porn, even on bookstores that carried adult material. Until, that is, he was caught in a downtown hotel with a hooker.
The NYT article I linked to in an earlier message indicated that this happens quite a lot with these guys: they vigorously pursue others for the things they themselves are guilty of. Projection, it said.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Spitzer OTOH claimed to be cleaner than clean...
Not to mention that Bill Clinton is and always was an affable guy. Eliot Spitzer, not so much. He was admired for his skill as a prosecutor and his vigorous pursuit of corruption, yes, but I gather that he was a very hard guy to work with and that he didn't exactly make himself beloved (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/nyregion/08spitzer.html?pagewanted=all) -- blunt, aggressive, even combative. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that style so long as you play fair and get results, but it does sort of leave you high and dry when you take a fall.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM
As did George Peach in Saint Louis. He was known for his vigorous attacks on porn, even on bookstores that carried adult material. Until, that is, he was caught in a downtown hotel with a hooker.Oooooops... heh heh... "But I didn't read anything!!"

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 07:55 PM
I'll have to remember to tell everyone that I'm a dirtbag so that when I finally do get arrested, indicted, and tried, I can use my humility and forthrightness as a defense to bargain for a reduced sentence.It isn't so much getting a free ride for "humility"; it's that hypocrisy on top of the ethical/moral failing is really obnoxious.

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 07:57 PM
And Florida's Bob Allen would possibly have paid Spitzer (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/016257.php) for the privilege!ROFL!!!

Judy G. Russell
March 11th, 2008, 07:59 PM
There was an interesting piece on the NYT web site today exploring the question of "Why do politicians keep getting caught in sex scandals?" The answer, in a nutshell, seemed to be (1) it's a power thing; and (2) politicians tend to be type "T" (thrill-seeking) personalities, who get their kicks from taking big risks.Not much bigger than this one, it seems. Everybody in this area is scurrying around trying to find out what they can about David Paterson...

davidh
March 11th, 2008, 09:45 PM
It isn't so much getting a free ride for "humility"; it's that hypocrisy on top of the ethical/moral failing is really obnoxious. I suppose that there are not many laws against being obnoxious, but acting so might not help in recruiting character witnesses.

I haven't lived in NY State for over 20 years so I don't keep up with the news. But in view of the aggressive and illegal prosecution of the Duke team by Mr. Nifong, it makes me wonder if perhaps justice would be better served by reviewing some of the cases successfully prosecuted under Mr. Spitzer's watch than by looking for ways to prosecute Mr. Spitzer?

David H.

davidh
March 11th, 2008, 09:54 PM
type "T" (thrill-seeking) personalities, who get their kicks from taking big risks. Like wars? I don't really keep up with the latest neurological research, but I'd not be surprised if there are normally some hard wired pathways between libido and violence.

David H.

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 10:46 PM
ROFL!!!
Allen was the Golden Duke nomination I made last year for the category "Best Scandal -- Sex and Generalized Carnality." For comic relief, you just can't beat that one.

Oh, uhhh -- I guess that was a bad choice of words, huh? :o

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 11:01 PM
Everybody in this area is scurrying around trying to find out what they can about David Paterson...
Paterson -- that's the LtGov?

There was something in the scenario in the NYT yesterday evening that was reminiscent of seasons 4/5 of "The West Wing":

Under the state constitution, should Mr. Spitzer resign, the lieutenant governor, David A. Paterson, would become governor for the remainder of Mr. Spitzer’s term.

Mr. Paterson’s current office would remain unfilled until the 2010 election, as the constitution makes no provision for filling a vacancy in the lieutenant governor’s office. Under those circumstances, Joseph L. Bruno, is the Republican majority leader and temporary president of the state senate, would "perform all the duties of the lieutenant-governor" until a new one is elected in 2010.

Those duties include acting as governor when the nominal office-holder is out of the state. Moreover, should Mr. Spitzer resign and if Mr. Paterson were unwilling or unable to take his place, Mr. Bruno would become acting governor—a possibility that would hold special irony, given the vicious and ongoing battles between Mr. Bruno and Mr. Spitzer over the last year.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 11th, 2008, 11:13 PM
Like wars? I don't really keep up with the latest neurological research, but I'd not be surprised if there are normally some hard wired pathways between libido and violence.
Sorry, I have no idea what you are getting at.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 01:34 AM
Hmmmm, was this prescience? The title of Cary Tennis's advice column in Salon.com on Monday morning was "Have I ruined my karma by sleeping with prostitutes?"

Oy.

--Lindsey

Mike
March 12th, 2008, 02:02 AM
...Florida's Bob Allen
Who already had a reputation...!

davidh
March 12th, 2008, 02:14 AM
Sorry, I have no idea what you are getting at.

--LindseyI was mixing stories. Sorry.

I just thought that the thrill of making a challenging sale (and bamboozling the client in the process) is a strong pull. Pres. Bush & Co. did a pretty good sales job in 2002 on the Iraq invasion and played on the fears of the citizens, of WMD's, etc., and on the fears of the congress of being seen as "soft". I doubt the motives were purely evil (i.e. mainly intentional deception). But there sure would have been a temptation to view oneself or the administration as a potential conquering hero for democracy that could have continued a Republican party "dynasty". Ken Lay of Enron probably convinced himself he was a hero with thrilling business conquests too.

OTOH, there appears to be at least some anecdotal evidence that anticipation of inflicting non-sexual violence on others can be somewhat of an aphrodisiac for certain people (at least males). There was a rather disturbing TV documentary about a murder, basically for fun, based on the author gaining the confidence of the convict on death row (in Florida a few years ago), that strongly hinted at this connection.

Not much connect between the two ideas except for the "thrill of the hunt".

David H.

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 10:34 AM
I suppose that there are not many laws against being obnoxious, but acting so might not help in recruiting character witnesses.More importantly, it doesn't help when a crime you yourself have prosecuted vigorously ends up being the one you're caught committing...

in view of the aggressive and illegal prosecution of the Duke team by Mr. Nifong, it makes me wonder if perhaps justice would be better served by reviewing some of the cases successfully prosecuted under Mr. Spitzer's watch than by looking for ways to prosecute Mr. Spitzer?I don't think there's been any serious question as to Spitzer's prosecutions. The issue now for him is one of glass houses and thrown stones.

But it's all apparently history, since he's supposed to make an announcement in literally minutes, resigning.

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 10:41 AM
should Mr. Spitzer resign and if Mr. Paterson were unwilling or unable to take his place, Mr. Bruno would become acting governorNow that will never happen. Paterson is a long-time politician and son of a long-time politician and is never going to step aside and let Bruno have the job.

ndebord
March 12th, 2008, 03:55 PM
The headlines in today's newspapers and online makes me want to scream: "Earth to Spitzer! Earth to Spitzer! Are there any operating brain cells in that cranium???"

Here's a guy who had an absolutely stellar reputation as a prosecutor and State Attorney General who appears to have gone completely nuts as governor of New York. The whole flap with the GOP Senate Majority leader Joe Bruno was just amazing (allegations of misusing state resources to try to prove that Bruno had misused state resources) and now this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23561606/)???

Is it just arrogance ("I'm untouchable") or is he just plain STUPID?

Judy,

Silver spoon baby. Different rules (or so he thought).

ktinkel
March 12th, 2008, 04:41 PM
… or is he just plain STUPID?Probably not just plain stupid — extraordinarily so.

He was caught in a banking trap that was somewhat of his own devising, put in place after he went after Wall Street in 2001. He had a special focus on high-end prostitution rings because of the amounts of money that passed through them to who knows where.

If anyone knew how closely money transfers are watched these days, he knew.

Hubris, at the very least!

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Silver spoon baby. Different rules (or so he thought).I'm sure he did think so... past tense, of course.

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 06:28 PM
He was caught in a banking trap that was somewhat of his own devising, put in place after he went after Wall Street in 2001. He had a special focus on high-end prostitution rings because of the amounts of money that passed through them to who knows where. If anyone knew how closely money transfers are watched these days, he knew. I really was amazed when it turned out he had screwed up with the "more than $10,000 in one day" stuff. Even I know about that one!!!

Hubris, at the very least!The very word I've been thinking of...

ktinkel
March 12th, 2008, 08:51 PM
I really was amazed when it turned out he had screwed up with the "more than $10,000 in one day" stuff. Even I know about that one!!!Even I know — though I couldn’t spend it!

But the explanations I have seen since this story blew up are really chilling. You do not need to pass ten grand at once or even in one day to trigger the system to take note of you. Depending on your score (which is built on many factors, including income level, where you live, previous spending behavior, where you work, and — to the point here — your power level) even small transactions may be recorded and passed along to the Feds. Power level multiplies the other score factors, so Spitzer would have had a high score even if he patronized $200/night hookers. But he didn’t, of course.

And of course once you get the attention of the Feds, politics rears its ugly head. Remember all that stuff about the U.S. Attorneys — they too factor in here.

Not that any of that excuses Spitzer; it actually amplifies his insane stupidity.

[Hubris]: The very word I've been thinking of...The other image that came to my mind was Icarus, who flew too close to the sun.

Anyway.

ktinkel
March 12th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Paterson -- that's the LtGov?Paterson is an extremely interesting guy. Quite liberal, as people go. Second generation uber-pol in New York.

Black, well-educated, legally blind, not proficient in Braille. He said recently that he “read” the morning papers by having them read to him.

But a seriously ambitious politician, and I would be astonished if he allowed the Republican Senate president Silver to stand in for him for more than a few baby kissings. If that.

If there is a silver lining in all this (no pun intended), it is that David Paterson will get a chance to display his strengths. I hope he has them. The budget is due in a bit over two weeks (April 1).

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Republican Senate president SilverSilver is the Democratic Assembly leader; Joe Bruno is the Republican Senate president.

Judy G. Russell
March 12th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Spitzer would have had a high score even if he patronized $200/night hookers. But he didn’t, of course.Nope. And one report I read said he spent $80,000 in less than one year!

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 11:13 PM
I was mixing stories. Sorry.

<snip>

Not much connect between the two ideas except for the "thrill of the hunt".
That's OK, I was just puzzled as to where the war business came from. I dunno, I'm no psychologist, but gut feeling tells me that Bush is acting out of an entirely different set of motivations than Spitzer.

I think Bush's main problem is that he is still trying to prove himself to the old man. He's not seeking thrills, he's just trying to show that he's a tougher guy than pop.

Spitzer, on the other hand -- I don't know, but if the "Type-T" analysis is right, it's more that he gets his kicks from living on the edge and managing not to fall over the precipice. Except this time, he managed to lean out a little too far.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Now that will never happen. Paterson is a long-time politician and son of a long-time politician and is never going to step aside and let Bruno have the job.
Well, it's good to know that life is not going to imitate art on this one!

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 11:20 PM
He was caught in a banking trap that was somewhat of his own devising, put in place after he went after Wall Street in 2001.
Oh, no, BSA goes back further than that--it was put in place in 1970. There were some amendments made to it in the so-called USA PATRIOT Act, but anti-money laundering legislation has been around for a long time.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 11:39 PM
I really was amazed when it turned out he had screwed up with the "more than $10,000 in one day" stuff. Even I know about that one!!!
It didn't even have to be $10,000 in one day. That's the threshold for a CTR (Currency Transaction Report). But banks typically have lower thresholds for their internal reporting, in order to uncover attempts to structure transactions to avoid the filing of a CTR. If they discover what they think may be evidence of attempts to structure transactions, or that indicates movement of money to no apparent legitimate purpose, or that may be for the purpose of criminal enterprise, then they are required to file a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR). There is no dollar threshold for a SAR. And from what I have seen in the news today, it sounds as if it was a SAR filing that started the investigation into Spitzer, althought the accounts said it was the IRS behind it, and while CTRs are filed with the IRS, I believe SARs are filed with FinCEN. But maybe they share information, or maybe that was a change made in the PATRIOT act.

My first thought when I saw the stories that he was moving these large amounts of cash around to pay this prostitution ring was, "How could he do that without triggering the BSA alarm?" And, of course, it turns out he didn't avoid triggering it after all.

But he would have known how all of this worked, and that he still managed to be ensnared by it is just one more indication of how completely reckless he was being.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 12th, 2008, 11:49 PM
You do not need to pass ten grand at once or even in one day to trigger the system to take note of you.
Exactly. But there's no one formula for what brings you to notice. Every bank has its own system. There are a number of software packages on the market to facilitate BSA reporting, and I'm sure many of those employ scoring systems, especially for the larger banks that have a high volume of large-dollar transactions. Smaller institutions like mine don't have such sophisticated automated reporting; we rely more on the individual judgement of the back-office people who are responsible for the reporting, but we don't have such a large volume to make that an overwhelming task.

Bottom line: the law requires you to take resonable measures to uncover suspicious activity and report it if you think you see it.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 13th, 2008, 12:15 AM
Paterson is an extremely interesting guy. Quite liberal, as people go. Second generation uber-pol in New York.

Black, well-educated, legally blind, not proficient in Braille. He said recently that he “read” the morning papers by having them read to him.
Sounds like if Spitzer was targeted for removal, the Republicans may not have done themselves a favor by getting rid of him. ;-)

If there is a silver lining in all this (no pun intended), it is that David Paterson will get a chance to display his strengths. I hope he has them. The budget is due in a bit over two weeks (April 1).
Maybe they pay closer attention to budget deadlines in New York, but in Virginia, ever since the Republicans took over the state legislature, the budget has been late every session save one. Not, I hasten to add, because there has been contention between Republicans and Democrats, but because the kamikaze Republicans in the House of Delegates cannot bring themselves to make any sort of compromise with the more moderate Republicans in the state Senate. This session the Republicans are still in charge of the House, but Democrats have a slim majority in the Senate. They ran overtime this year, too (they were supposed to have adjourned this past Saturday), but the news tonight is saying that they are expected to finalize a budget deal tomorrow, so they haven't done to badly. Last year, I think they ran into June, and it was supposed to be a short session. (They may get called back for a special session on transportation, though.)

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
March 13th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Well, it's good to know that life is not going to imitate art on this one!No worries here. David Paterson is the son of Basil Paterson, a name well known in Democratic circles. The family genes are very good ones.

Bill Hirst
March 13th, 2008, 02:45 PM
I think Bush's main problem is that he is still trying to prove himself to the old man. He's not seeking thrills, he's just trying to show that he's a tougher guy than pop.
--Lindsey
Unfortunately, he's coming off like a tough boxer who's taken one too many to the head. Maybe if he hadn't tried to follow daddy into Iraq, "he coulda been a contenda."

Anyway, he'll be gone in less than a year and then we'll have a new megalomaniac running the place.

-Bill

ktinkel
March 13th, 2008, 03:37 PM
Silver is the Democratic Assembly leader; Joe Bruno is the Republican Senate president.Oh, drat — I know the people, but don’t seem to do a good job of telling them apart, or knowing their jobs! :o

Thanks.

ktinkel
March 13th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Maybe they pay closer attention to budget deadlines in New York …Nope. I think they were pretty much on time last year, but for a decade or more before that it was agonizing to be within hail of New York because of the wailing and finger-pointing about the dratted budget.

(My NPR station is WNYC, PBS is Channel 13, and we get the NYC network channels; not to mention the Times every day.)

ktinkel
March 13th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Exactly. But there's no one formula for what brings you to notice. Every bank has its own system. [ . . . ] Bottom line: the law requires you to take resonable measures to uncover suspicious activity and report it if you think you see it.So I read. Amazing the stuff about how our world works that comes out when there is some sort of crisis.

One reason he was caught, or so I read, is that there is also a kind of point amplifier for public figures, including politicians, called the PEP index. He would have tripped over that as well.

And then there is the little fact (though only a cynic or someone with a suspicious mind would dwell on such a thing; a few have been doing so) that North Fork Bank had been caught up in one of his purification drives a few years ago. They may have had a local “point amplifier” when it came to the name Spitzer as well!

fhaber
March 13th, 2008, 05:39 PM
So now we have "structuring" of derivatives and swaps that no one understands, and no one can value. And we have "structuring" (slicing and dicing?) of payments by an individual that can brand you with RICO or Patriot trouble. Why do I find this worrying?

You know, of course, there's a fair amount of cash flying around Manhattan that never sees the inside of a bank?

Judy G. Russell
March 13th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Oh, drat — I know the people, but don’t seem to do a good job of telling them apart, or knowing their jobs! :o I think the only reason I know this is because of the incessant coverage on WCBS Radio these days...

earler
March 13th, 2008, 07:30 PM
What really awoke the irs people was the 2nd report on spitzer from hsbc, like north fork, one of the banks he used. Then there was the curious nature of the companies to which the money was sent. They seemed to be shell companies with no business activities.

ktinkel
March 13th, 2008, 08:02 PM
And we have "structuring" (slicing and dicing?) of payments by an individual that can brand you with RICO or Patriot trouble. Why do I find this worrying?Dunno, but I do too.

Lindsey
March 13th, 2008, 11:17 PM
No worries here. David Paterson is the son of Basil Paterson, a name well known in Democratic circles. The family genes are very good ones.
This guy is definitely a keeper. TPM quotes New York Magazine as saying:

Paterson also displayed a rather awesome sense of humor. "Just so we don't have to go through this whole resignation thing again," one ballsy reporter asked, "have you ever patronized a prostitute?" Paterson thought for a minute. "Only the lobbyists," he said.

Can we put him up as a candidate for president? We desperately need some humor in this race.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 13th, 2008, 11:25 PM
Unfortunately, he's coming off like a tough boxer who's taken one too many to the head.
Well, you know, there may be something to that, though not as the effect of physical blows to the head. Hits from cocaine and alcohol, maybe.

Anyway, he'll be gone in less than a year and then we'll have a new megalomaniac running the place.
I just hope the country can make it to next January 20 without a complete meltdown. The dollar is in freefall, Krugman's column on Monday was nothing short of frightening, and you gotta wonder if the 5th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, or Jenna's wedding later this spring might be occasions that those looking to do mischief would find attractive opportunities.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 13th, 2008, 11:27 PM
...for a decade or more before that it was agonizing to be within hail of New York because of the wailing and finger-pointing about the dratted budget.
Oh, dear. That sounds all too familiar!

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 13th, 2008, 11:47 PM
One reason he was caught, or so I read, is that there is also a kind of point amplifier for public figures, including politicians, called the PEP index.
I hadn't heard of that, but it wouldn't surprise me that it worked that way -- perhaps with the evaluation system within the government if not in the bank itself. Public figures have significantly more opportunity for corruption than the average Joe, and more reason to be held to a higher standard of openness.

And then there is the little fact (though only a cynic or someone with a suspicious mind would dwell on such a thing; a few have been doing so) that North Fork Bank had been caught up in one of his purification drives a few years ago. They may have had a local “point amplifier” when it came to the name Spitzer as well!
Oh, I didn't know that; that's very interesting! But why on earth would Spitzer then turn around and choose to do business with them?

I have no doubt the knives were out for him (did I say this here before?), but more fool he for charging headlong into them.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 14th, 2008, 12:05 AM
So now we have "structuring" of derivatives and swaps that no one understands, and no one can value. And we have "structuring" (slicing and dicing?) of payments by an individual that can brand you with RICO or Patriot trouble. Why do I find this worrying?
Isn't jargon wonderful?

But on the larger point: yes, you're right to find it worrying. I know people sometimes think I get a little too fanatical about the continual encroachments on privacy in this brave new electronic world, but just what government involvement I deal with on a daily basis is enough to give me great pause.

Oh, and just for giggles: BSA (the anti-money laundering legislation that mandates a lot of this reporting) stands for "Bank Secrecy Act." Isn't that a lovely Orwellian name for it?

You know, of course, there's a fair amount of cash flying around Manhattan that never sees the inside of a bank?
Oh, sure. BSA was never designed to snag all of it. But it does at least choke off the big ticket items. It's not totally evil, but it can be rather intrusive (not to mention a pain in the butt for the people who have to administer it).

--Lindsey

sidney
March 14th, 2008, 12:10 AM
But why on earth would Spitzer then turn around and choose to do business with them?

He may not have. From the NYT story The Reports That Drew Federal eyes To Spitzer (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/nyregion/12legal.html)

A few months later, another New York bank sent its own reports of suspicious activity to the Treasury. They showed that Mr. Spitzer and others, including people overseas, collectively deposited hundreds of thousands of dollars into an account of a company called QAT International Inc., whose business involved foreign accounts and shell companies and appeared to be vaguely related to pornography Web sites.

...

The officials said that no one knew at first the nature of QAT’s business or why Mr. Spitzer seemed to be trying to hide what appeared to be payments to the mysterious company that seemed to have no real business. Investigators at the bank were said to have thought it could have involved organized crime.

So apparently it had more to do with the money from various places funneling into the one bank account, not something Spitzer would be aware of.

Lindsey
March 14th, 2008, 12:31 AM
He may not have. From the NYT story The Reports That Drew Federal eyes To Spitzer (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/nyregion/12legal.html)...
Yes, but the first two paragraphs from that story say that Spitzer's own activity had raised a separate set of suspicions:

Last summer, employees at a large New York bank detected something suspicious: Gov. Eliot Spitzer was moving around thousands of dollars in what they thought was an effort to conceal the fact that the money was his own, federal officials said on Tuesday.

They said the apparent sleight of hand kept the transactions small and removed his name from deposits. The governor’s actions prompted the bank to file alerts known as Suspicious Activity Reports with the Treasury Department, which were reviewed by I.R.S. agents on Long Island, the federal officials said.

This story doesn't specifically mention North Fork Bank, but I'm pretty sure I heard their name mentioned as the ones who had filed the SAR on Spitzer, either from some other source, or from some earlier story in the NYT.

Whatever he was doing raised suspicions among bank employees that he was deliberately structuring his cash transactions to try to stay under the CTR reporting threshold, and attempting also to disguise the ultimate source of the money. So they filed a SAR. They're required to do that; once they detect something that looks suspicious -- and there's not too much doubt that this kind of thing is the classic sort of suspicious activity the feds are looking for -- they really didn't have any choice to do otherwise.

It just happened that the Feds were working both ends of the transaction, possibly completely independently at first -- also not really terribly surprising.

--Lindsey

sidney
March 14th, 2008, 03:21 AM
The stupidity that really strikes me is what is revealed in the court documents describing the wiretapped conversation between the prostitute and her boss where she is cautioned that Spitzer will try to insist on unsafe sex (no condom). I could imagine him not being careful enough to avoid triggering a SAR. But how did he go about deluding himself into thinking that he, not to mention his wife, could get away with him having unprotected sex with any prostitute who is willing to have unprotected sex with him?

There's yet another take on Spitzer's stupid risks in this NYT op-ed Really Dangerous Liaisons (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/opinion/12quan.html) by a former sex worker. She makes the point that escort agencies are always being spied on and busted, and so "Well-connected men, however, have typically sought out sex workers who have been recommended by their friends and who don’t have Web sites. Escort agencies are supposed to be out of the question for old-school rakes who want to protect their marriages and careers."

Judy G. Russell
March 14th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Can we put him up as a candidate for president? We desperately need some humor in this race.I'll vote for that!

Judy G. Russell
March 14th, 2008, 09:08 AM
The stupidity that really strikes me is what is revealed in the court documents describing the wiretapped conversation between the prostitute and her boss where she is cautioned that Spitzer will try to insist on unsafe sex (no condom). I could imagine him not being careful enough to avoid triggering a SAR. But how did he go about deluding himself into thinking that he, not to mention his wife, could get away with him having unprotected sex with any prostitute who is willing to have unprotected sex with him?Boggles the mind, doesn't it? It's not as if anyone involved would have been producing a health certificate...

ktinkel
March 14th, 2008, 05:00 PM
According to a favorable review of The Bush Tragedy by Jacob Heilbrunn in the January/February/March (oops!) issue of The Washington Monthly, author Jacob Weisberg describes Bush as a throw-back to his father’s maternal grandfather, George Herbert Walker.

The review, citing the book, describes Walker as a “bold speculator,” rowdy and obnoxious, described as “coarse” in the family history, and a parvenu “who lived large.”

Then, the reviewer writes: “The Walkers were gamblers; the Bushes, conservators. Guess which model George W. ended up following?”

Good review; almost makes me interested in enough in more GWB to read the book.

earler
March 14th, 2008, 05:34 PM
Yes, the better off will sign up to share a lady. No agency involved, but the cost is much higher. I reckon that pitzer was on a short leash by his father, who is also the owner of the rental building in which the family lives. The apt. is only 4 bedrooms, not exactly a palace given that there are 3 daughters, 14, 16 and 18 years old. Though his father is supposed to be very wealthy, the son has been mostly in politics, where the pay isn't all that high. Bear in mind that his 3 daughters cost him at least $80k per year.

Lindsey
March 14th, 2008, 10:15 PM
But how did he go about deluding himself into thinking that he, not to mention his wife, could get away with him having unprotected sex with any prostitute who is willing to have unprotected sex with him?
Well, that's a good question, but I'm not sure logic has anything to do with this. In any event, I gather from what I have read that "Kristen" was not willing to go along with that. (Didn't she say something along the lines of "I just tell them, 'Do you want the sex, or don't you?'")

"Well-connected men, however, have typically sought out sex workers who have been recommended by their friends and who don’t have Web sites.
That must be what the "former sex worker" on Larry King was getting at the other night when she said something like "Prominent men like Spitzer would normally go with a private madam." I hadn't realized that there was such a thing as a public madam!

--Lindsey

Mike
March 15th, 2008, 01:00 AM
...the "former sex worker" on Larry King...
She was on him while the cameras were on? Geez, late night TV really is getting raunchy!

sidney
March 15th, 2008, 05:19 AM
but I'm not sure logic has anything to do with this. In any event, I gather from what I have read that "Kristen" was not willing to go along with that

These days, when the consequences could be a death sentence, it is insane to deny such logic. Of course she would not be wiling to go along with it. If that's what he regularly does it would be putting her life at risk.

I hadn't realized that there was such a thing as a public madam!

When you can find her by Googling for escorts in New York City, that is not private, and that was apparently true of the agency that Spitzer used.

Judy G. Russell
March 15th, 2008, 09:41 AM
These days, when the consequences could be a death sentence, it is insane to deny such logic. Of course she would not be wiling to go along with it. If that's what he regularly does it would be putting her life at risk.And his wife's life as well...

Lindsey
March 16th, 2008, 11:37 PM
She was on him while the cameras were on? Geez, late night TV really is getting raunchy!
Pfffffft!

--Lindsey

Lindsey
March 16th, 2008, 11:51 PM
These days, when the consequences could be a death sentence, it is insane to deny such logic. Of course she would not be wiling to go along with it. If that's what he regularly does it would be putting her life at risk.
Well, what I meant was that I don't think Spitzer's actions (except, perhaps, his ineffective efforts at concealing his movements of cash) were the result of any logical process whatsoever. They were driven by hormones, or ego, or perhaps a little of both.

As for Kristen, well -- all I know is that prostitutes put their lives on the line for a lot less money that she was getting from Spitzer. So forgive me if I'm cynical enough to think that at least as strong a motivation for her would be that it could put her high-priced status in jeopardy.

When you can find her by Googling for escorts in New York City, that is not private, and that was apparently true of the agency that Spitzer used.
I guess it just never occurred to me that you could Google for high-dollar prostitutes...

--Lindsey

Dodi Schultz
March 18th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Hey, you guys in New Jersey and Virginia and California and what-all: How do you think WE feel here in New York State? Eh? We voted for Mister Squeaky Clean because he promised to "clean up Albany" (which has, according to those in the know, one of the very worst of the 50 state legislatures).

We were tired of the sordid squabbling up there (mainly between Dem Assemblyman Shel Silver and Rep Senator Joe Bruno and their minions), and the year-after-year budget-passing lags. (The usual technique has been clock-stopping, literally: If the clock shows 10 p.m. yesterday, the budget deadline, it's still 10 p.m. yesterday, even if my watch and yours say it's 10 a.m. today, so the budget's not late, and the law's unbroken.)

So we were thrilled by the outspoken ("I'm a fucking steamroller!") and presumably brilliant Spitzer. I mean, he'd led all these charges against corrupt moneybags, right? Well, we're learning, not exactly: In many cases, he made a lot of charges and threats and didn't actually prosecute the presumed evil-doers; the charges, however, got a whole lot of publicity.

We've been had. THAT's what we're so mad about here. And appalled that he could do this--not only stupidly, and apparently believing himself sort of untouchable, but in total disregard of what it would do to his wife and, most especially, to his three teenage daughters.

David Paterson (whose father, Basil, is a former Secretary of State of the state) is a long-time state senator who, despite legal blindness (no sight in one eye, hardly any at all in the other, result of infection at age 3), managed to make it through Columbia as well as law school (Hofstra, I think). We're hoping.

Check out the covers of the just-out current issues of New York magazine and the New Yorker.......

--DS

ktinkel
March 18th, 2008, 04:27 PM
As a former New Yorker and a resident of the fine state of Corrupticut, I found the Spitzer saga just amazing, and I have lived through a lot of political high-jinx. I love politics, and of course New York is expected to offer the most amazing. But the rest of the region keeps up its end all right. Spitzer’s fall was certainly more dramatic than that of Bridgeport Mayor Ganim, Providence Mayor Buddy Cianci (the spaghetti sauce king), or Govs Rowland or McGreevy, but not more sordid. Or maybe it was, but only because he was someone we expected more of than anyone did of those other guys.

It gets so I feel grateful when someone from the rest of the nation gets exposed for some peccadillo — the lower northeast has had quite enough!

But Spitzer’s fall was different. For one thing, it didn’t drag out like all the others I mentioned. In fact, it was so swift a downfall that I almost believe in some of the conspiracy theories swirling around. (Alexander Cockburn had a pretty good list in the March 31 issue of The Nation — which, BTW, arrived yesterday ablaze with the Spitzer story on the cover; the March 24 issue just arrived today).

Besides that, he did some good work. Going after Wall Street was courageous (and yes, attention-getting; but politicians rarely mean to be wallflowers). I hope Cuomo takes up the cudgels, though we probably shouldn’t hope too hard. But no one I know ever thought of Rowland, Cianci, or McGreevy as reformers of any stripe. There was widespread public acceptance of rampant corruption throughout the terms of Rowland and Cianci (though both were re-elected at least once). Ganim actually started out looking like a do-gooder, but when the stories came out, his reckless greed was breathtaking.

All a long-winded way of saying I agree that you have a right to feel taken. Me too, about Spitzer and all of them.

Bill Hirst
March 22nd, 2008, 10:09 AM
I guess it just never occurred to me that you could Google for high-dollar prostitutes...

--Lindsey

It never occurred to me that gobs of money for a servant was better than a few hours/weeks/months romance with someone I love. But I take pride in doing my own work, even if (for example) my house painting skills leave a few drip marks.

Btw: Sue's been with me since '98.

-Bill

Bill Hirst
March 22nd, 2008, 10:16 AM
As did George Peach in Saint Louis. He was known for his vigorous attacks on porn, even on bookstores that carried adult material. Until, that is, he was caught in a downtown hotel with a hooker.

Obviously just doing investigative research. Nobody should think Peach did anything for his own gratification.

-Bill

ndebord
March 22nd, 2008, 01:10 PM
Obviously just doing investigative research. Nobody should think Peach did anything for his own gratification.

-Bill

Bill,

Purely research. He was researhcing Georgia Peachs!


;-)

ndebord
March 24th, 2008, 04:55 PM
The stupidity that really strikes me is what is revealed in the court documents describing the wiretapped conversation between the prostitute and her boss where she is cautioned that Spitzer will try to insist on unsafe sex (no condom). I could imagine him not being careful enough to avoid triggering a SAR. But how did he go about deluding himself into thinking that he, not to mention his wife, could get away with him having unprotected sex with any prostitute who is willing to have unprotected sex with him?

There's yet another take on Spitzer's stupid risks in this NYT op-ed Really Dangerous Liaisons (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/opinion/12quan.html) by a former sex worker. She makes the point that escort agencies are always being spied on and busted, and so "Well-connected men, however, have typically sought out sex workers who have been recommended by their friends and who don’t have Web sites. Escort agencies are supposed to be out of the question for old-school rakes who want to protect their marriages and careers."


Sidney,

That Spitzer was incredibly stupid is clear to everyone in the world by now, but you should add in this little tidbit.

http://miaculpa.blogspot.com/2008/03/republican-slime-machine-behind-spitzer.html

Roger Stone, Republican dirty trickster, with a pedigree that starts with Richard Milhous Nixon, has emerged as the political hit man who did in former Governor Spitzer. How? Why the old-fashioned letter to the FBI that contained specific allegations, including the salacious tidbit that Spitzer kept his knee high black socks on during sex acts and details about how Spitzer paid with wire transfers.

Stone says, "My work isn't done there, just watch."