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Nancy Shepherdson
January 11th, 2008, 06:58 PM
Could we please be a little more careful with the subject lines we put
on messages and our decisions to start a new post?

In the most recently posted messages, it is impossible to see from
message subjects whether a new word has been posted. The new word
message is entitled, "Round 1874 Name Games." Huh?

Also, the results from the last round were attached to the original
announcement of the word!

Is it asking too much that the content of the messages be clear from
the subject lines? I don't always have time to read every message and
I certainly don't have time to hunt for the results or the new word.

Weren't we going to make this game *friendlier* to newbies? We are
not making the progress hoped for, at least lately. It is becoming
too hard even for bears of little brain like me.

Nancy

Toni Savage
January 11th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Sorry, the "Name Games" was my choice. I absolutely LOATHE the fact that people keep not changing a subject line at all when changing the subject, but I thought if I kept the beginning part of the subject, it would be a little more obvious that it was part of the same thread (there were already other messages with the new topic but old subject field...)

-- Toni Savage


--- On Fri, 1/11/08, Nancy Shepherdson <nancygoat (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

> From: Nancy Shepherdson <nancygoat (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
> Subject: [Dixonary] Subject confusion
> To: "Dixonary" <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
> Date: Friday, January 11, 2008, 7:58 PM
> Could we please be a little more careful with the subject
> lines we put
> on messages and our decisions to start a new post?
>
> In the most recently posted messages, it is impossible to
> see from
> message subjects whether a new word has been posted. The
> new word
> message is entitled, "Round 1874 Name Games."
> Huh?
>
> Also, the results from the last round were attached to the
> original
> announcement of the word!
>
> Is it asking too much that the content of the messages be
> clear from
> the subject lines? I don't always have time to read
> every message and
> I certainly don't have time to hunt for the results or
> the new word.
>
> Weren't we going to make this game *friendlier* to
> newbies? We are
> not making the progress hoped for, at least lately. It is
> becoming
> too hard even for bears of little brain like me.
>
> Nancy

Dodi Schultz
January 11th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Nancy writes:

>> In the most recently posted messages, it is impossible to see from
>> message subjects whether a new word has been posted. The new word
>> message is entitled, "Round 1874 Name Games." Huh?

I'd say "Huh?" too, if I saw such a subject line. But no such line appeared
on the new word message.

The subject line of my message announcing the new word read, in its
entirety:

Sb: [Dixonary] Round 1874: New word

That was it. Nothing about "name games" (which would have been
meaningless!). Most of the early def submissions in fact repeated my exact
subject line (some put the new word in the line).

>> Also, the results from the last round were attached to the original
>> announcement of the word!

Chris's report of the results of round 1873 DID have the same subject line
as his original announcement of the word, but it arrived in my mailbox as a
message on its own, not trailing any old messages.

--Dodi

Dodi Schultz
January 11th, 2008, 11:46 PM
>> Sorry, the "Name Games" was my choice.

I don't understand, Toni.

Why would you rewrite the perfectly clear subject line on my message? And
what on earth does "name games" mean? And where did you do this so that
Nancy saw it thus but other players have received the message I originally
wrote?

I am thoroughly confused.

--Dodi

Paul Keating
January 12th, 2008, 04:36 AM
Dodi,

Toni did not rewrite the subject line on your message. What she did, because
the conversation was straying off-topic, was to put a new subject line on
_her_ message. But if you do that in reply to a thread on the Google group,
Google interprets this action as (and I quote) "Discussion subject changed
to "Round 1874: name games" by Toni Savage".

On CIS this would have had the intended effect of starting a new thread. On
Google not.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dodi Schultz" <SCHULTZ (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>
To: <Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 6:46 AM
Subject: [Dixonary] Subject confusion




>> Sorry, the "Name Games" was my choice.

I don't understand, Toni.

Why would you rewrite the perfectly clear subject line on my message? And
what on earth does "name games" mean? And where did you do this so that
Nancy saw it thus but other players have received the message I originally
wrote?

I am thoroughly confused.

--Dodi

Dodi Schultz
January 12th, 2008, 10:41 AM
>> Toni did not rewrite the subject line on your message. What she did,
>> because the conversation was straying off-topic, was to put a new
>> subject line on _her_ message.

Paul (you didn't sign your message, but I found your address in the routing
text), this whole thing is still a mystery to me.

Toni SAID she put a new subject line on my message (I don't understand how
or why), and Nancy said, I believe, that she saw the text of my original
message but with the heading "Name games."

And "name games" doesn't seem to make any sense.

--Dodi

Tim B
January 12th, 2008, 11:08 AM
> Paul (you didn't sign your message, but I found your address in the routing
> text), this whole thing is still a mystery to me.
>
> Toni SAID she put a new subject line on my message (I don't understand how
> or why), and Nancy said, I believe, that she saw the text of my original
> message but with the heading "Name games."
>
No, Dodi, that wasn't quite what Dodi said.

What actually happened was that Toni posted a message within the new
word thread, but wandering away from the original subject, so she
changed the subject on HER message. Apparently Google then, in its
online form, changes the subject of the whole thread, including any
messages previously posted, which by that time will already have been
forwarded by email to those who see messages that way.

Thus when I look at my collection of all messages in this thread, only
two actually have "Name games" in the subject: Toni's posting and Paul's
comment on it.

> And "name games" doesn't seem to make any sense.

For both of the messages to which the subject change was intended to
apply, it made perfect sense, since they were about funny things
happening to people's names.

So, as Paul pointed out, the problem arose because Google behaves
differently from CIS and other systems, in retrospectively changing the
thread title of earlier messages; I believe CIS would have considered a
subject change to start a new thread.

Best wishes,
Tim B.

Toni Savage
January 12th, 2008, 09:47 PM
Thanks... I didn't know that Google kept threads intact.

In fact, I'm not sure how it does... is there any way to start a new thread with a reply? Or would I have to copy-and-paste the old message in?

-- Toni Savage


--- On Sat, 1/12/08, Tim B <dixonary (AT) siam (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

> From: Tim B <dixonary (AT) siam (DOT) co.uk>
> Subject: [Dixonary] Re: Subject confusion
> To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Date: Saturday, January 12, 2008, 12:08 PM
> > Paul (you didn't sign your message, but I found
> your address in the routing
> > text), this whole thing is still a mystery to me.
> >
> > Toni SAID she put a new subject line on my message (I
> don't understand how
> > or why), and Nancy said, I believe, that she saw the
> text of my original
> > message but with the heading "Name games."
> >
> No, Dodi, that wasn't quite what Dodi said.
>
> What actually happened was that Toni posted a message
> within the new
> word thread, but wandering away from the original subject,
> so she
> changed the subject on HER message. Apparently Google then,
> in its
> online form, changes the subject of the whole thread,
> including any
> messages previously posted, which by that time will already
> have been
> forwarded by email to those who see messages that way.
>
> Thus when I look at my collection of all messages in this
> thread, only
> two actually have "Name games" in the subject:
> Toni's posting and Paul's
> comment on it.
>
> > And "name games" doesn't seem to make
> any sense.
>
> For both of the messages to which the subject change was
> intended to
> apply, it made perfect sense, since they were about funny
> things
> happening to people's names.
>
> So, as Paul pointed out, the problem arose because Google
> behaves
> differently from CIS and other systems, in retrospectively
> changing the
> thread title of earlier messages; I believe CIS would have
> considered a
> subject change to start a new thread.
>
> Best wishes,
> Tim B.

Paul Keating
January 13th, 2008, 04:52 AM
> is there any way to start a new thread with a reply? Or would I have to
copy-and-paste the old message in?

That depends on who is looking at the thread, using what software, and when.
If you want to start a completely new thread, rather than a tree branch with
a new subject, I think you would have to paste the old message in.

Google knows what message you're replying to (if your email program puts a
suitable In-reply-to: header on your message). If the reply has a different
subject, then Google treats that as though you had pressed Reply on the
group and chosen the option Edit Subject.

Google understands message trees, and will display them if you ask it to,
like this (you may need to display this message in fixed font for it to look
like anything):
[Dixonary] Round 1874: New word
1 Dodi Schultz Jan 11
2 Judy Madnick Jan 11
3 Bill Hirst Jan 11
4 Daniel B. Widdis Jan 11
5 Dodi Schultz Jan 11
6 Paul Keating Jan 11
7 JohnnyB Jan 11
Re: [Dixonary] Re: Round 1874: name games
8 Toni Savage Jan 11
9 Paul Keating Jan 12
Re: Round 1874: MEDRICK
10 Paul Keating Jan 12

On the Messages page, Google lists all threads, and it shows the original
topic (Round 1874: New word). But on the Home page, which summarizes active
threads (that is, ones with new messages), it displays the latest topic
(currently Round 1874: MEDRICK).

When Google forwards a message by mail, it forwards it with the subject line
it was posted with. So, in my inbox, I have exactly 2 messages in this
thread with the title Re: [Dixonary] Re: Round 1874: name games, which
matches the tree, and is what happened.

I believe that Nancy gets her messages as a daily digest, not one-by-one,
and that is, I think, the source of the original confusion. The digest
bundles up to 25 messages together in a single email, and when Google has to
choose a subject, it chooses the latest one, not the original one.

The web interface is Google Groups' primary interface, and it really only
looks the way it's supposed to look in a browser. The email interface is
just an emulation. Predicting how a thread is going to look in someone
else's email client, when viewed through that emulation, and especially when
summarized in a digest, may be tricky. That's why the answer to your
question is "It depends."

--
Paul Keating
The Hague

Dodi Schultz
January 13th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Y'know, Paul, if one gets game messages by ordinary e-mail, none of this
confusion will happen, and--providing you check your e-mail at least once
a day--you won't miss any notices of new words, deadline warnings, or other
vital missives.

--Dodi

Toni Savage
January 13th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Noted. I'll play it safe and paste...

-- Toni Savage


--- On Sun, 1/13/08, Paul Keating <pjakeating (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

> From: Paul Keating <pjakeating (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
> Subject: [Dixonary] Re: Subject confusion
> To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Date: Sunday, January 13, 2008, 5:52 AM
> > is there any way to start a new thread with a reply?
> Or would I have to
> copy-and-paste the old message in?
>
> That depends on who is looking at the thread, using what
> software, and when.
> If you want to start a completely new thread, rather than a
> tree branch with
> a new subject, I think you would have to paste the old
> message in.
>
> Google knows what message you're replying to (if your
> email program puts a
> suitable In-reply-to: header on your message). If the reply
> has a different
> subject, then Google treats that as though you had pressed
> Reply on the
> group and chosen the option Edit Subject.
>
> Google understands message trees, and will display them if
> you ask it to,
> like this (you may need to display this message in fixed
> font for it to look
> like anything):
> [Dixonary] Round 1874: New word
> 1 Dodi Schultz Jan 11
> 2 Judy Madnick Jan 11
> 3 Bill Hirst Jan 11
> 4 Daniel B. Widdis Jan 11
> 5 Dodi Schultz Jan 11
> 6 Paul Keating Jan 11
> 7 JohnnyB Jan 11
> Re: [Dixonary] Re: Round 1874: name games
> 8 Toni Savage Jan 11
> 9 Paul Keating Jan 12
> Re: Round 1874: MEDRICK
> 10 Paul Keating Jan 12
>
> On the Messages page, Google lists all threads, and it
> shows the original
> topic (Round 1874: New word). But on the Home page, which
> summarizes active
> threads (that is, ones with new messages), it displays the
> latest topic
> (currently Round 1874: MEDRICK).
>
> When Google forwards a message by mail, it forwards it with
> the subject line
> it was posted with. So, in my inbox, I have exactly 2
> messages in this
> thread with the title Re: [Dixonary] Re: Round 1874: name
> games, which
> matches the tree, and is what happened.
>
> I believe that Nancy gets her messages as a daily digest,
> not one-by-one,
> and that is, I think, the source of the original confusion.
> The digest
> bundles up to 25 messages together in a single email, and
> when Google has to
> choose a subject, it chooses the latest one, not the
> original one.
>
> The web interface is Google Groups' primary interface,
> and it really only
> looks the way it's supposed to look in a browser. The
> email interface is
> just an emulation. Predicting how a thread is going to look
> in someone
> else's email client, when viewed through that
> emulation, and especially when
> summarized in a digest, may be tricky. That's why the
> answer to your
> question is "It depends."
>
> --
> Paul Keating
> The Hague

Dodi Schultz
January 13th, 2008, 04:21 PM
Here's another suggestion for those, like Nancy, who have apparently been
frustrated by the GoogleGroups site:

If for some reason you don't want to play by e-mail, play at the TAPCIS
Website, where there's a forum just for Dixonary, each thread is a distinct
entity, and things don't get renamed.

Go to, and bookmark:

http://www.tapcis.com/forums/index.php?

and scroll down to the forum called "The Parlor."

OR, go directly to our forum with:

http://www.tapcis.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5

--Dodi

Daniel B. Widdis
January 13th, 2008, 04:49 PM
DS> one gets game messages by ordinary e-mail,
DS> none of this confusion will happen

Also, the tapcis.com Parlor section is pretty smart about keeping subjects
grouped together, and starting new "threads" when the subject changes.

For those who want to play via the web, rather than email, I'd recommend the
tapcis.com site, rather than the Google interface.

--
Dan

Hugo Kornelis
January 13th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Hi Dodi,

> Y'know, Paul, if one gets game messages by ordinary e-mail, none of this
> confusion will happen, and--providing you check your e-mail at least once
> a day--you won't miss any notices of new words, deadline warnings, or
> other
> vital missives.

<sigh> If only.

I currently keep missing messages from some players. I have no idea why, but
I seem to get *all* messages - except for those orignating from a few
players, of whom I receive nothing at all!

Best, Hugo

Dodi Schultz
January 13th, 2008, 09:31 PM
>> For those who want to play via the web, rather than email, I'd
>> recommend the tapcis.com site, rather than the Google interface.

As did I, Dan, in a message sent before I received the one above. ;-)

--Dodi