"Messianic Certitude"

[ndebord]

Only this President could extol the 'thoughtful recommendations of th"e Iraq Study Group,' and then take its most far-sighted recommendation — 'engage Syria and Iran' — and transform it into 'threaten Syria and Iran' — when Al-Qaeda would like nothing better than for us to threaten Syria, and when President Ahmmadinejad would like nothing better than to be threatened by us," said MSNBC's Keith Olberman.

[Judy G. Russell]

Only this President could extol the 'thoughtful recommendations of th"e Iraq Study Group,' and then take its most far-sighted recommendation — 'engage Syria and Iran' — and transform it into 'threaten Syria and Iran' — when Al-Qaeda would like nothing better than for us to threaten Syria, and when President Ahmmadinejad would like nothing better than to be threatened by us," said MSNBC's Keith Olberman.His attitude over the past couple of days ("I'm gonna do what I want to do and nobody can stop me, so there!") is just astounding. Yeah, he wants bipartisanship, defined as "do things my way or else."

[ndebord]

His attitude over the past couple of days ("I'm gonna do what I want to do and nobody can stop me, so there!") is just astounding. Yeah, he wants bipartisanship, defined as "do things my way or else."

Judy,

And his base of support has narrowed, but down to the truly scary, if you ask me.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/01/15/ledeen/

As many of the neo-cons who prosyletized for war with Iraq slink off to dingy cellars outside the Beltway, there are a few who stay aboard, adamant and determined, particularly as they feel increasingly isolated and constrained. One such is Michael Ledeen, of Iran Contra and Niger Yellowcake fame.

He said a lot in this new interview with Salon: One Q&A stands our for me:

Q: What do you think the U.S. should do (about Iran)?

A: I want to support revolution in Iran.

[Lindsey]

Glen Greenwald had a perceptive (and rather frightening) post (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/collapse-of-bush-presidency-poses.html) on Sunday:

[T]he weaker and more besieged the administration feels, the more compelled they will feel to make a showing of their power. Lashing out in response to feelings of weakness is a temptation most human beings have, but it is more than a mere temptation for George Bush. It is one of the predominant dynamics that drives his behavior.

<snip>

The most dangerous George Bush is one who feels weak, powerless and under attack. Those perceptions are intolerable for him and I doubt there are many limits, if there are any, on what he would be willing to do in order to restore a feeling of power and to rid himself of the sensations of his own weakness and defeat.
--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

The most dangerous George Bush is one who feels weak, powerless and under attack. Those perceptions are intolerable for him and I doubt there are many limits, if there are any, on what he would be willing to do in order to restore a feeling of power and to rid himself of the sensations of his own weakness and defeat.Uh oh...

[Lindsey]

Uh oh...
My sentiments exactly. :(

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Only this President could extol the 'thoughtful recommendations of th"e Iraq Study Group,' and then take its most far-sighted recommendation — 'engage Syria and Iran' — and transform it into 'threaten Syria and Iran' — when Al-Qaeda would like nothing better than for us to threaten Syria, and when President Ahmmadinejad would like nothing better than to be threatened by us," said MSNBC's Keith Olberman.
And then there is the outright deception, which continues to this day:

President Bush and his aides, explaining their reasons for sending more American troops to Iraq, are offering an incomplete, oversimplified and possibly untrue version of events there that raises new questions about the accuracy of the administration's statements about Iraq.
-- McClatchy Newspapers (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/16460924.htm) (formerly Knight-Ridder)
I'm very glad someone is pointing out that while it was certainly a pivotal point, sectarian violence didn't start with the bombing of the Samarra mosque, as Bush asserted in his address.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I'm very glad someone is pointing out that while it was certainly a pivotal point, sectarian violence didn't start with the bombing of the Samarra mosque, as Bush asserted in his address.But it isn't going to make any difference. People -- including the electorate in November -- have been screaming "The Emperor has no clothes" for years to no avail.

[Lindsey]

But it isn't going to make any difference. People -- including the electorate in November -- have been screaming "The Emperor has no clothes" for years to no avail.
I agree that it's not likely to make any immediate difference. It may make a crucial difference in November of 2008, though. If we make it that far.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

Glen Greenwald had a perceptive (and rather frightening) post (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/collapse-of-bush-presidency-poses.html) on Sunday:


--Lindsey

Lindsey,

This from Reuters:

U.S. plans envision broad attack on Iran: analyst

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070120/ts_nm/iran_usa_experts_dc_1

[Judy G. Russell]

This from Reuters:U.S. plans envision broad attack on Iran: analyst http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070120/ts_nm/iran_usa_experts_dc_1Oh. My. God.

[ndebord]

Oh. My. God.

Judy,

And this from Sarah Posner who writes for AlterNet, not the most objective publication out there, but her bona fides on the Christian Right are impeccable.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46753/

As Bush's War Strategy Shifts to Iran, Christian Zionists Gear Up for the Apocalypse

[Judy G. Russell]

As Bush's War Strategy Shifts to Iran, Christian Zionists Gear Up for the ApocalypseUlp... the worst part about this is that some Apocalyptic folks believe that the Second Coming and the end of the world will be signaled by (or triggered by) a total conflagration in the Middle East -- and they welcome the idea. I'm not so sure about the Second Coming, but I think they could well be right about the end of the world...

[ndebord]

Ulp... the worst part about this is that some Apocalyptic folks believe that the Second Coming and the end of the world will be signaled by (or triggered by) a total conflagration in the Middle East -- and they welcome the idea. I'm not so sure about the Second Coming, but I think they could well be right about the end of the world...

re: Originally Posted by ndebord
As Bush's War Strategy Shifts to Iran, Christian Zionists Gear Up for the Apocalypse

Judy,

I don't see it. Long war...a religious war to match anything we saw in Europe in the old days, but not the end of all things. First off, they don't have enough nukes to take us out and we, otoh, do have enough. Second and third: The Russians may like to have alliances in the Middle East, but essentially they don't much like Islam for historical reasons. The Chinese have a long history of alliances with Persia, but they have their own problems with the "Turkomen" in their NW provinces and would not want to destroy their greatest commerical market (read sucker).

But 1.4 billion people and all of them radicalized.

<shudder>

[Judy G. Russell]

But 1.4 billion people and all of them radicalized.I don't know about you, but I'd sure consider that the end of the world...

[ndebord]

I don't know about you, but I'd sure consider that the end of the world...

Judy,

Or a long religious war.

[Judy G. Russell]

Or a long religious war.Six of one, half dozen of the other...

[ndebord]

Six of one, half dozen of the other...

Originally Posted by ndebord
Or a long religious war.


Judy,

If it t'were six of the end of the world, we won't know about it! OTOH, if it is to be a long religious war, the worst case scenario would be one side or the other winning totally.

(Now selling...genuine soft pile prayer rugs from the halls of Mecca...guaranteed to protect knees sore from incessant kneeling five times a day...and in this special one time offer, a free compas is included to make sure you face East on cloudy days.)

[Judy G. Russell]

genuine soft pile prayer rugs from the halls of Mecca...Amazing isn't it... sometimes I think more people have died in the name of God than of all other causes combined...

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Amazing isn't it... sometimes I think more people have died in the name of God than of all other causes combined...
I often generalize (while recognizing the inherent danger in doing so) that the vast majority of present-day wars are because the people involved cannot/will not separate the concepts of ethnicity, nationality, and religion.

[Judy G. Russell]

I often generalize (while recognizing the inherent danger in doing so) that the vast majority of present-day wars are because the people involved cannot/will not separate the concepts of ethnicity, nationality, and religion.It also has a lot to do with drawing national boundaries in disregard to ethnicity, nationality, and religion.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

It also has a lot to do with drawing national boundaries in disregard to ethnicity, nationality, and religion.
The problem is that the natural boundaries of ethnicity and religion are not tightly-drawn, nor do they necessarily match each other. Someone moves across the river, and the boundary is then fuzzy.

For example, it is my understanding that not all Kurds are Christians, and certainly not all are Iraqis. Not all Sunnis are Iraqi, and not all Iraqis are Sunni -- so they fight against anyone different, because they think "Nation" and "Religion" mean the same thing.

[ndebord]

The problem is that the natural boundaries of ethnicity and religion are not tightly-drawn, nor do they necessarily match each other. Someone moves across the river, and the boundary is then fuzzy.

For example, it is my understanding that not all Kurds are Christians, and certainly not all are Iraqis. Not all Sunnis are Iraqi, and not all Iraqis are Sunni -- so they fight against anyone different, because they think "Nation" and "Religion" mean the same thing.

Dan,

Think tribal, if not kinship as the sole binding elements of this ill-conceived nation-state.

[Judy G. Russell]

The problem is that the natural boundaries of ethnicity and religion are not tightly-drawn, nor do they necessarily match each other. Someone moves across the river, and the boundary is then fuzzy.No question about that, but the more that the boundaries are artificially drawn (as they were in Iraq, joining exceeding disparate groups into one "country" by the fiat of nations far away), the more likely it is you're writing a prescription for conflict.

For example, it is my understanding that not all Kurds are Christians, and certainly not all are Iraqis. Not all Sunnis are Iraqi, and not all Iraqis are Sunni -- so they fight against anyone different, because they think "Nation" and "Religion" mean the same thing.Frankly, I don't think anybody there really is an Iraqi. There are Kurds, and Sunnis, and Shia, but do any of them think of themselves as Iraqi first? I doubt it.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Frankly, I don't think anybody there really is an Iraqi. There are Kurds, and Sunnis, and Shia, but do any of them think of themselves as Iraqi first? I doubt it.
That's because they think in terms of a KURDISH nation, a SUNNI nation, a SHII nation.

Ethnicity ≠ Religion ≠ Nationalty, or there will be war.

[Judy G. Russell]

Ethnicity ≠ Religion ≠ Nationalty, or there will be war.Uh... Dan? There already is one. And we started it.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Uh... Dan? There already is one. And we started it.
I think the Sunnis and Shiites were already fighting, and (was it Turkey) who actually went across the border to punish Kurds? We made it worse by raising the stakes.

[Judy G. Russell]

We made it worse by raising the stakes.There we agree 1000%.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

There we agree 1000%.
BTW, I was wrong about the Kurds being predominately Christians. I "misremembered" something my wife told me.

Kurds are (according to Wikipedia) predominantly Sunni Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Muslim)
also some Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia), Yazidism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidism), Yarsan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarsan), Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity).

And there are over a million each in about four countries.

So... one ethnic origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Kurds), six religions, four nations (with over 100,000 in each of six others). A real recipe for war.

My same wife also notes that the more militant Sunnis in Iraq refer to the Shiite opposition as "Iranians," further supporting the concept that they tend at some level to equate religion and nationality.

[Judy G. Russell]

My same wife also notes that the more militant Sunnis in Iraq refer to the Shiite opposition as "Iranians," further supporting the concept that they tend at some level to equate religion and nationality.I suspect that very ugly war between mostly-Shiite Iran and Sunni-controlled Iraq didn't help any...

[ndebord]

Glen Greenwald had a perceptive (and rather frightening) post (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/collapse-of-bush-presidency-poses.html) on Sunday:


--Lindsey

Lindsey,

Francis Fukuyama just wrote this in the Guardian.

The neocons have learned nothing from five years of catastrophe

--Their zealous advocacy of the invasion of Iraq may have been a disaster, but now they want to do it all over again - in Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2002290,00.html

[Judy G. Russell]

Fukuyama's key point: What I find remarkable about the neoconservative line of argument on Iran, however, is how little changed it is in its basic assumptions and tonalities from that taken on Iraq in 2002, despite the momentous events of the past five years and the manifest failure of policies that neoconservatives themselves advocated. What may change is the American public's willingness to listen to them.We can only hope...

[Lindsey]

The neocons have learned nothing from five years of catastrophe
Fukuyama has really been furiously distancing himself from his former PNAC buddies, hasn't he?

As for the neocons, as I have said before: they are like the pigheaded Bourbons, about whom Talleyrand famously said, "They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing."

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

Fukuyama has really been furiously distancing himself from his former PNAC buddies, hasn't he?

As for the neocons, as I have said before: they are like the pigheaded Bourbons, about whom Talleyrand famously said, "They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing."

--Lindsey


Lindsey,

Most of missed your earlier quote on this, but yes, most definitely yes, but with a modern totalitarian tinge to this bunch of ideological misfits.

[ndebord]

No question about that, but the more that the boundaries are artificially drawn (as they were in Iraq, joining exceeding disparate groups into one "country" by the fiat of nations far away), the more likely it is you're writing a prescription for conflict.

Frankly, I don't think anybody there really is an Iraqi. There are Kurds, and Sunnis, and Shia, but do any of them think of themselves as Iraqi first? I doubt it.

Judy,

In that vein, this penetrating analysis from Salon.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/02/insurgency/

Q: Every day you look at Iraq through the lens of insurgent videos and Internet postings. What do you see?

A: A picture of fundamentalism. Shiite fundamentalism clashing with Sunni fundamentalism clashing with American fundamentalism. We have tried imposing things upon Iraq that are totally foreign to it. Now each side is unwilling to acknowledge the right of the other to have a voice in what's going on. It's a disaster.

[Judy G. Russell]

Q: ... What do you see?
A: A picture of fundamentalism.Ain't that the truth...

[ndebord]

Originally Posted by Dan in Saint Louis
I often generalize (while recognizing the inherent danger in doing so) that the vast majority of present-day wars are because the people involved cannot/will not separate the concepts of ethnicity, nationality, and religion.

It also has a lot to do with drawing national boundaries in disregard to ethnicity, nationality, and religion.

Judy,

And you might add in that we seem to be living in a post-enlightenment age, where reason and logic are receeding in the public weal while superstition and revealed religion are ascending.

[Judy G. Russell]

you might add in that we seem to be living in a post-enlightenment age, where reason and logic are receeding in the public weal while superstition and revealed religion are ascending.Is there a difference between superstition and revealed religion? Sigh...

[ndebord]

Is there a difference between superstition and revealed religion? Sigh...

Judy,

It depends upon the eye of the believer, ahh, beholder.

http://members.aol.com/dwr51055/Creation.html

[Judy G. Russell]

It depends upon the eye of the believer, ahh, beholder.Sigh... I have never understood this creationist stuff. I mean, is the deity they believe in really so limited that he/she/it could not have set off the Big Bang?

[ndebord]

Sigh... I have never understood this creationist stuff. I mean, is the deity they believe in really so limited that he/she/it could not have set off the Big Bang?

Judy,

Hey, if biblical lifespans are as long as they say, perhaps we can find someone alive who made diamonds from coal in only 6,000 years!

[Judy G. Russell]

Hey, if biblical lifespans are as long as they say, perhaps we can find someone alive who made diamonds from coal in only 6,000 years!I just want to find somebody who shows me where the Bible describes dinosaurs... or where Cain's wife came from.

[lensue]

>or where Cain's wife came from.<

Judy, I doubt they'll be ABEL to do that! [fleeing to philly]

[Judy G. Russell]

[fleeing to philly]Where you'll (ahem) raise Cain, I assume...

[lensue]

>Where you'll (ahem) raise Cain, I assume...<

Judy, wow--you caught me immediately--I had no chance to flee. We'll be in Washington DC for at least 3 days--I'll check all this out! [g]