NJ disenfranchisement!

[Judy G. Russell]

I wasn't aware of it until today, but it seems that an awful lot of people here in NJ are not eligible to vote. It seems that there is language in our constitution here that provides:

Article II, Section 1, paragraph 6: "No idiot ... shall enjoy the right of suffrage."I wonder if I can get my Congressman removed from office as having been illegally elected... Clearly, he couldn't have been elected without a whole bunch of idiots having voted...

[earler]

Hmm. You have a different version of the constitution than I have. No such wording exists in the constitution.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

Hmm. You have a different version of the constitution than I have. No such wording exists in the constitution. Were you noting the fact that I am discussing the NEW JERSEY Constitution ("people here in NJ" ... "our constitution") and not the US constitution? Try this link (http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/lawsconstitution/constitution.asp) to the NJ Constitution of 1947.

[earler]

Oh, when one speaks of the constitution one usually means the u.s. constitution. Otherwise, one says the n. j. constitution or the florida constituion.

I'd not be surprised if what you say is in the n.j. constitution might be tossed out if it ever came before the supreme court (the u.s. supreme court, I mean). I don't believe a state constitution may override the u.s. constitution.

-er

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Oh, when one speaks of the constitution one usually means the u.s. constitution.
"an awful lot of people here in NJ" made it pretty clear to me.

[Judy G. Russell]

Oh, when one speaks of the constitution one usually means the u.s. constitution. Otherwise, one says the n. j. constitution or the florida constituion.Earle, for heaven's sake, lighten up. It was a joke, for cryin' out loud.

And it should have been obvious, on its face, that I would not have said that people IN NEW JERSEY were having problems if I had meant the FEDERAL constitution. If that language were in the FEDERAL constitution it would affect EVERYBODY in the entire country, and not just people in New Jersey.

Geez.

[Judy G. Russell]

"an awful lot of people here in NJ" made it pretty clear to me.Gee, ya think maybe? That and the title of the thread were supposed to be giveaways... Next time I'll make sure I do the whole "N.J. Constitution (1947)" citation format... or just forget the whole thing.

[ndebord]

Oh, when one speaks of the constitution one usually means the u.s. constitution. Otherwise, one says the n. j. constitution or the florida constituion.

I'd not be surprised if what you say is in the n.j. constitution might be tossed out if it ever came before the supreme court (the u.s. supreme court, I mean). I don't believe a state constitution may override the u.s. constitution.

-er

Earle,

We're talking the Joisey Constitution here, preeminent in the land. We'll make the country an offer they can't refuse. You got a problem with that?

;-)

[Judy G. Russell]

You got a problem with that?Nick, Nick, Nick. When will you ever learn? It's "you gotta pro'lem widdat?"

[Dodi Schultz]

Earle, for heaven's sake, lighten up. It was a joke, for cryin' out loud.

And it should have been obvious, on its face, that I would not have said that people IN NEW JERSEY were having problems if I had meant the FEDERAL constitution. If that language were in the FEDERAL constitution it would affect EVERYBODY in the entire country, and not just people in New Jersey.

Geez.

It was obvious, Judy. BTW, Leno commented Tuesday night that, despite the fact that the odor suffusing parts of NYC Monday arose from your, um, Garden State, the area wouldn't be disturbed, since it was a sacred burial site--of the Mob.

Poor ol' New Jersey! Always getting picked on.

I gather that it DOES have one of the top education track records in the US, though. Seriously.

--DS

[earler]

It's always interesting to hear the views of the bridge and tunnel crowd.

-er

[ndebord]

Nick, Nick, Nick. When will you ever learn? It's "you gotta pro'lem widdat?"

Judy,

You've been spending too much time at that mob bar again.

;-)

[ndebord]

It's always interesting to hear the views of the bridge and tunnel crowd.

-er

Earle,

Those are for tourists.

Wanna take a little boat ride?

<g>

[Judy G. Russell]

You've been spending too much time at that mob bar again.Er... um... it shows, then?

[Judy G. Russell]

It was obvious, Judy. BTW, Leno commented Tuesday night that, despite the fact that the odor suffusing parts of NYC Monday arose from your, um, Garden State, the area wouldn't be disturbed, since it was a sacred burial site--of the Mob.ROFL! I like that one! I've always said myself that Jimmy Hoffa's most likely burial place is under the 50 yard line at Giant Stadium...

Poor ol' New Jersey! Always getting picked on. I gather that it DOES have one of the top education track records in the US, though. Seriously.Seriously, there's a lot here to be proud of, but we're afraid that if the word gets out we might get even more of an invasion of them flatland ferriners to deal with, using our beaches, trekking through our Pine Barrens, hiking our trails and even (gasp) eating at our favorite restaurants. Or (worst of all) moving here and putting their kids in our schools which, as you correctly note, are generally excellent. Not everywhere, of course: the cities still struggle. But we've gone a long way towards equalizing educational opportunity throughout the state and the results show it.

[Judy G. Russell]

It's always interesting to hear the views of the bridge and tunnel crowd.It should be. At least we have a sense of humor...

[earler]

Ah, the light at the end of the tunnel! But its new jersey!

As for sense of humor, well unless I am mistaken, the catskills are in new york state, and it is there the birthplace of new york humor.

-er

[lensue]

>there's a lot here to be proud of<

Judy, including this:

Census: New Jersey is nation's richest state

The Associated Press

TRENTON, N.J. - With its concentration of wealthy bedroom communities near New York and Philadelphia, New Jersey is the richest state in the country, according to Census Bureau data released Tuesday.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/104-08302005-534522.html

and of course we are the GARDEN STATE! Regards, Len [g]

[lensue]

>the catskills are in new york state, and it is there the birthplace of new york humor. <

Earle, it's lost a lot of its humor--we drive through alot of the areas of the Catskills and it really pains me to see in what shape alot of them are in--I hope they can rebound because they hold alot of memories for me. Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

The Associated Press

TRENTON, N.J. - With its concentration of wealthy bedroom communities near New York and Philadelphia, New Jersey is the richest state in the country, according to Census Bureau data released Tuesday.Oh great. Now we'll get everybody else's burglars!

[Judy G. Russell]

the catskills are ... the birthplace of new york humor. A particular type of NY humor, yes.

[lensue]

>Now we'll get everybody else's burglars!<

Judy, they're not already here? Regards, Len [g]

[Judy G. Russell]

>Now we'll get everybody else's burglars!<
Judy, they're not already here?No, those are our burglars. Home-grown, y'know.

[lensue]

>Home-grown, y'know<

Judy, LOL--just like our great tomatoes! Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

Nick, Nick, Nick. When will you ever learn? It's "you gotta pro'lem widdat?"
LOL!! I was just thinking the same thing!

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

A particular type of NY humor, yes.
Yeah, somehow I think the Irish knew how to laugh long before there was a Borscht Belt...

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

LOL!! I was just thinking the same thing!

Originally Posted by Judy G. Russell
Nick, Nick, Nick. When will you ever learn? It's "you gotta pro'lem widdat?"


--Lindsey

Judy (and Lindsey),

Hey, I know the meaning. Didn't say I had your intimate familiarity with the people and the lingo!

;-)

[Judy G. Russell]

just like our great tomatoes!Oooh, don't talk about our tomatoes. It's gonna be MONTHS before we get any new ones!

[Judy G. Russell]

Yeah, somehow I think the Irish knew how to laugh long before there was a Borscht Belt...Too true, and the Italians, and the Poles, and the Germans, and all the other immigrants. (The "blue bloods" maybe not.) But Jewish humor is associated closely with New York, and it surely is funny -- often wickedly so.

[Judy G. Russell]

I know the meaning. Didn't say I had your intimate familiarity with the people and the lingo!I probably have lived here a couple of years longer than you have... not to mention having prosecuted a few guys who spoke like that!

[ndebord]

I probably have lived here a couple of years longer than you have... not to mention having prosecuted a few guys who spoke like that!


Judy,

It's kind of funny how prioximity breeds strange bedfellows and odd understanding. I think of O'Neil's restaurant on Baxter and Grand, with a tunnel into the old Police Building on Centre St, so the Chief of Police could get his booze discreetly when that joint was a speakeasy, or the gun store on Baxter (since moved) where cops and wiseguys stood shoulder to shoulder comparing handguns and such. (I had a loft on Centre once upon a time.)



<shrug>

[ndebord]

Oooh, don't talk about our tomatoes. It's gonna be MONTHS before we get any new ones!

Judy,

Yeah, exactly what is going to happen with all those plants that bloomed last week? When the frost really does hit? Does it mean no new blooms in the real Spring?

[Judy G. Russell]

exactly what is going to happen with all those plants that bloomed last week? When the frost really does hit? Does it mean no new blooms in the real Spring?I think the ones that bloomed are toast. The ones that didn't are still possibles for some spring blooms.

[Judy G. Russell]

It's kind of funny how prioximity breeds strange bedfellows and odd understanding. I think of O'Neil's restaurant on Baxter and Grand, with a tunnel into the old Police Building on Centre St, so the Chief of Police could get his booze discreetly when that joint was a speakeasy, or the gun store on Baxter (since moved) where cops and wiseguys stood shoulder to shoulder comparing handguns and such. (I had a loft on Centre once upon a time.)
<shrug>Unfortunately, that sort of thing isn't over yet. A guy I once knew, who was a state prosecutor and then a federal prosecutor, has just been indicted for the second time for being too cozy with the bad guys...

[Lindsey]

Too true, and the Italians, and the Poles, and the Germans, and all the other immigrants. (The "blue bloods" maybe not.)
My New York ancestors were mostly Presbyterians, and though they were not blue bloods, I'm not sure they did much laughing. I've read some of the minutes from those 19th-century Presbyterian churches. They tossed people out for playing cards or going to the theater. In one case, they even went after one member for frequenting a chop house (where I suppose alcohol was served).

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Yeah, exactly what is going to happen with all those plants that bloomed last week? When the frost really does hit? Does it mean no new blooms in the real Spring?
Depends on the plant and on how far along it was when the frost hit. Some types of plants might manage a second bloom. (I'm pretty sure I've seen my mother's camellias bloom again at the proper season after being tempted into bloom by unseasonably warm winter weather, for example.) Some flower buds can survive frost if the bud has not yet begun to unfurl. Others cannot. Just have to wait and see and keep our fingers crossed.

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>They tossed people out ...alcohol was served).<

Lindsey, this reminds me of a show I tape and watch at my liesure from PBS called the History Detectives--just yesterday I watched an episode about the founder of Alcohol Anonymous, Bill Wilson.

"A man from Laurel, Maryland owns a mysterious letter that was written in 1942. It’s a tribute addressed to his grandmother on the occasion of his grandfather, Herbert Wallace’s death, acknowledging Wallace’s support for the organization Alcoholics Anonymous.

The letter makes it sound as if Herbert Wallace was deeply involved in A.A. Yet our amateur History Detective wants to know how his supposedly sober attorney grandfather was being so lavishly praised by the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous: “We of the A.A. Group have never had a better friend, nor a stauncher one, than Herb when the going was hard,” the note states."

Th investigator uncovers what the relationship was between this Wallace, a wealthy member of the Oxford Group, and founder Wilson:

"Wilson’s friendship with Wallace even more of a mystery. As Wilson reached into the gutter to help fellow alcoholics, the snobbish Oxford Group turned its nose up at Wilson and his lowbrow mission....After a while, the Oxford Group didn’t like Bill bringing his drunks along with him to Oxford Group meetings....Bill and Lois soon felt unwelcome.... people weren’t talking to them anymore,..they left the Oxford Group in 1937. The fledgling A.A. was barely surviving, and Wilson was courting the poorhouse.... he didn’t have a job. He was trying to build this organization of, you know, ragtag drunks. They couldn’t exactly go to the Bank of America for a loan, and they were living hand-to-mouth....They lost the house in 1939, and for the next two years, they moved 52 times living on the largess of their friends in A.A."

But Wallace apparently helped out Wilson during the tough times and that's what the letter of gratitude was for. This show has been on now for about 3 years and I enjoy the various segmants--they always involve some very interesting historical footage. Regards, Len

[Jeff]

ROFLMAO!

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

ROFLMAO!Gads, I'm glad somebody saw the humor in this!!

[ndebord]

Depends on the plant and on how far along it was when the frost hit. Some types of plants might manage a second bloom. (I'm pretty sure I've seen my mother's camellias bloom again at the proper season after being tempted into bloom by unseasonably warm winter weather, for example.) Some flower buds can survive frost if the bud has not yet begun to unfurl. Others cannot. Just have to wait and see and keep our fingers crossed.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

Luckily most of our plants are annuals, so we just buy in the Spring and plant when the weather cooperates.

<weak grin>

[Lindsey]

This show has been on now for about 3 years and I enjoy the various segmants--they always involve some very interesting historical footage.
I like "History Detectives," too -- it's not that far removed from researching genealogy, and it's an entertaining way to learn a little obscure history. There was a made-for-TV movie some years ago called "My Name is Bill W." about the founding of A.A. I think it starred James Garner, and I believe it was filmed here in Richmond. A local actor, Bev Appleton, had one of the small speaking parts in it.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Luckily most of our plants are annuals, so we just buy in the Spring and plant when the weather cooperates.
Ah, I see! Well that does take some of the anxiety out!

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

My New York ancestors were mostly Presbyterians, and though they were not blue bloods, I'm not sure they did much laughing. I've read some of the minutes from those 19th-century Presbyterian churches. They tossed people out for playing cards or going to the theater. In one case, they even went after one member for frequenting a chop house (where I suppose alcohol was served).Doesn't look like the Southern Methodists liked that stuff much either. This is a quote from a Methodist Bishop:
“The gross debasing waltz would not be tolerated for another year if Christian mothers in our communion would only set their faces against it, and remove their daughters from its contaminations, and their sons from that contempt of womanhood and womanly modesty which it begets. Alas! that women professing to follow Christ and godliness, should not rally for the honor of their sex, and drive these shameless dances from society.” [Hubbert, James Monroe; Dancers and dancing; a calm and rational view of the dancing question, by Pastor J. M. Hubbert; Nashville, Tenn., Cumberland Presbyterian publishing house [c1901]]

[lensue]

>There was a made-for-TV movie some years ago called "My Name is Bill W." about the founding of A.A. I think it starred James Garner, and I believe it was filmed here in Richmond. <

Lindsey, interesting--I hadn't heard about it before. Talk about alcoholism I just got a chance to watch the 60 Minutes from a few weeks ago and they did a story on Betty Ford and her problem--it combined interviews with her that 60 Minutes had done in the past-- I had forgotten just how spoken she had been considered at the time. Maybe you or others caught the show--there was a fascinating exchange between Stahl and Betty on how her husband and children had had to deal with her. Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

"The gross debasing waltz..."
LOL!! I wonder what Pastor Hubbart would have to say about freak dancing (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/248536_freakdancing16.html)!

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

No, I didn't see the show, but I had not forgotten that Betty Ford was nothing if not outspoken!

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

LOL!! I wonder what Pastor Hubbart would have to say about freak dancing (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/248536_freakdancing16.html)!Definite heart attack time for him.

[lensue]

>I had not forgotten that Betty Ford was nothing if not outspoken<

Lindsey, well I needed my memory refreshed--I also decided to check out a website to learn still more about her--very interesting:

""She studied modern dance at Bennington College in Vermont, decided to make it a career, and became a member of Martha Graham's noted concert group in New York City, supporting herself as a fashion model for the John Robert Powers firm. Close ties with her family and her home town took her back to Grand Rapids, where she became fashion coordinator for a department store. She also organized her own dance group and taught dance to handicapped children. Her first marriage, at age 24, ended in divorce five years later on the grounds of incompatibility. Not long afterward she began dating Jerry Ford, football hero, graduate of the University of Michigan and Yale Law School, and soon a candidate for Congress." Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

Yes, I knew she had been a professional dancer, with the rather unpromising name of "Betty Bloomer." Quite a woman, especially when you consider how unusual it was in her generation for a woman to choose a career at all, let alone the kinds of things she was doing.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Quite a woman, especially when you consider how unusual it was in her generation for a woman to choose a career at all, let alone the kinds of things she was doing.The thing that got me, more than anything else, was her ability to admit her drinking problem. That was something my mother never could do, even as she was dying of cancers caused in part by her drinking. She was able to admit that her smoking had been a cause but even in the fact of overwhelming evidence that smoking raised the odds by X percent and drinking by Y percent but smoking and drinking by X times Y percent, she never could admit it. I kept wishing she'd had Betty Ford's courage...

[Lindsey]

You're right, that's a very difficult thing to admit publicly, and that was especially true at the time that she did so. It's to the great credit of that entire family that they were willing to risk the stigma that too often goes with that revelation.

But that sort of personal courage is extraordinary. Don't be too hard on your mother for having more typical levels of courage. Sometimes it takes all the courage you can muster just to get out of bed in the morning.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

You're right, that's a very difficult thing to admit publicly, and that was especially true at the time that she did so. It's to the great credit of that entire family that they were willing to risk the stigma that too often goes with that revelation.Exactly. A major massive risk at that time.

But that sort of personal courage is extraordinary. Don't be too hard on your mother for having more typical levels of courage. Sometimes it takes all the courage you can muster just to get out of bed in the morning.I do credit her with the things she managed to accomplish, Lindsey. And she did accomplish much in her life. But one of the things she managed to "accomplish" was seriously affecting seven children. And while it can be forgiven, it can't be -- and shouldn't be -- forgotten.

[Lindsey]

And while it can be forgiven, it can't be -- and shouldn't be -- forgotten.
Can't argue with that!

Several years ago, a close family friend committed suicide. It was a terrible shock to the entire community, and for his family it was devastating. I still wonder about the long-term effects on his kids; they were grown, but that doesn't mean you are immune to the effects of a parent's self-destructive behavior.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Several years ago, a close family friend committed suicide. It was a terrible shock to the entire community, and for his family it was devastating. I still wonder about the long-term effects on his kids; they were grown, but that doesn't mean you are immune to the effects of a parent's self-destructive behavior. I've always thought that suicide was the worst of all: it leaves everyone with that unanswerable ache "what could I have done to prevent this?" and the inevitable anger "how could you do this to me?" and the pain "why wasn't my love enough?"

[Lindsey]

I've always thought that suicide was the worst of all: it leaves everyone with that unanswerable ache "what could I have done to prevent this?" and the inevitable anger "how could you do this to me?" and the pain "why wasn't my love enough?"
Indeed; I was angry with him; I can't imagine how his family must have felt.

--Lindsey