A painful milestone

[Judy G. Russell]

A painful milestone came and went on Tuesday, December 26. I suspect many of us -- like me, for one -- may have overlooked it in our desire to avoid the news in favor of visiting family and friends.

But on Tuesday, December 26, it became official: more Americans have died in the war in Iraq than died in all of the attacks of 9/11/2001. And as of yesterday (or perhaps the day before), the number of American dead hit 3000. And it continues to climb.

A secular government that was reined in by crippling sanctions has been replaced by chaos and sectarian civil war... at a cost of 3000 American lives so far. And oh, by the way, Osama bin Laden is still out there.

George Bush, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and the rest of the neocons... you have so much to answer for.

[ndebord]

Judy,

Don't get me started. One nephew and my niece's husband have been in and out of Iraq and various Central Asian countries for the last 4 years more times than I care to recall.

[Judy G. Russell]

Don't get me started. One nephew and my niece's husband have been in and out of Iraq and various Central Asian countries for the last 4 years more times than I care to recall.I have a cousin who's undoubtedly going back next year. Sigh... I hate this....

[Lindsey]

George Bush, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and the rest of the neocons... you have so much to answer for.
Along those lines, a sobering piece (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/29/AR2006122901238_pf.html) in the Washington Post by Richard Clarke.

Also sobering: this post (http://www.juancole.com/2006/12/top-ten-myths-about-iraq-2006-1.html) of Juan Cole's.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Along those lines, a sobering piece (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/29/AR2006122901238_pf.html) in the Washington Post by Richard Clarke.

Also sobering: this post (http://www.juancole.com/2006/12/top-ten-myths-about-iraq-2006-1.html) of Juan Cole's.Oh but those are liberals talking. You know nobody listens to them.

[ndebord]

Oh but those are liberals talking. You know nobody listens to them.


Judy,

Or they're VETERANS and nobody listens to them ever.

(It's like Groundhog Day...We're being led by a cherry 2nd Lt, who never, ever, will actually see combat.)

[Lindsey]

Oh but those are liberals talking. You know nobody listens to them.
<sigh> Too right, unfortunately.

It's a measure of how far the political center has moved rightward in the last decade or so that Richard Clarke would be considered a liberal.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Or they're VETERANS and nobody listens to them ever.Only too true, I'm afraid.

(It's like Groundhog Day...We're being led by a cherry 2nd Lt, who never, ever, will actually see combat.)Not him or any of his kinfolk.

[Judy G. Russell]

It's a measure of how far the political center has moved rightward in the last decade or so that Richard Clarke would be considered a liberal.Astounding, isn't it? Then again, we're living in a world where "conservative" means "stick your nose as far as possible into other people's private lives and spend spend spend!"

[Lindsey]

Astounding, isn't it? Then again, we're living in a world where "conservative" means "stick your nose as far as possible into other people's private lives and spend spend spend!"
Sounds like it's time for a chorus of what Washington's army played at Yorktown: "The World Turned Upside-Down".

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Sounds like it's time for a chorus of what Washington's army played at Yorktown: "The World Turned Upside-Down".Even more so when it is now the Democrats who are saying no spending without paying for it!

[Lindsey]

Even more so when it is now the Democrats who are saying no spending without paying for it!
Of course, the Democrats have been pushing for balanced budgets for 20 or 25 years now!

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Of course, the Democrats have been pushing for balanced budgets for 20 or 25 years now!Yep, but they were willing to raise taxes when necessary to achieve that goal.

[ndebord]

Only too true, I'm afraid.

Not him or any of his kinfolk.

Judy,

Succint.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/03/keillor/

[Judy G. Russell]

Judy,

Succint.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/03/keillor/Can't get to the link; it's some premium stuff.

[Lindsey]

Yep, but they were willing to raise taxes when necessary to achieve that goal.
Why the "but"?

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Can't get to the link; it's some premium stuff.
No more premium than anything else on Salon, but I think your problem is the ad blockers: to get to Salon.com's content if you don't have a subscription, you have to click through an ad. Can't do that if you don't let the ad display!

But I think a better link might be http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/03/keillor/index.html -- the one Nick posted seems to hang up when I try to access it for some reason.

I'd post a relevant clip, but I lost the thread of what you and Nick were talking about, so I'm not sure just where Keillor's piece comes in.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I got the gist of it from what I could see in your link, but I'm not going to turn off all my control items just to read one piece.

[Judy G. Russell]

Why the "but"?To distinguish them from the Republicans, who think solely in terms of cutting spending (unless of course it's spending they want, such as war spending).

[ndebord]

Can't get to the link; it's some premium stuff.

Judy,

Go to Salon, click on the "day" ad and then look for his column. FWIW, I had no trouble with the link, but it IS the "Wild Wild Web."

<sigh>

[Lindsey]

To distinguish them from the Republicans, who think solely in terms of cutting spending (unless of course it's spending they want, such as war spending).
Oh, I see. Yeah, that's the great divide: whether to balance the budget by taxing the wealthy, or cutting benefits to the poor. Lately the Republicans have gone one better in that direction: decrease taxes on the wealthy and cut benefits to the poor. And put the squeeze on the guys in the middle.

That's the divide that last year left the Virginia General Assembly unable to finalize a budget until the very last minute, runing months past what should have been the deadline, and passing it only just before the government would have been required to shut down. But the divide is not between Republicans and Democrats, but rather between the rabidly anti-tax Republicans in the House and the fiscally conservative Republicans in the state Senate. This is not the first year that dispute had dragged on for weeks and weeks and weeks, and I think it's at least part of the reason that Democrats have been doing pretty well in statewide elections in the last few years.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

And now for "The World Turned Upside-Down" -- "Politics makes strange bedfellows (http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jan/05/surge_is_opposed_by_ollie_north)" edition.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

And now for "The World Turned Upside-Down" -- "Politics makes strange bedfellows (http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jan/05/surge_is_opposed_by_ollie_north)" edition.Whatever can be said bad about Oliver North (and there is a lot), he was still a Marine... and most Marines don't like the idea of other Marines giving up their lives for no good reason and without any hope of gain.

[Judy G. Russell]

Go to Salon, click on the "day" ad and then look for his column. FWIW, I had no trouble with the link, but it IS the "Wild Wild Web."I don't see the ads due to my ad blocker. Turning it off doesn't seem to help at that site.

[Lindsey]

Whatever can be said bad about Oliver North (and there is a lot), he was still a Marine... and most Marines don't like the idea of other Marines giving up their lives for no good reason and without any hope of gain.
I guess I'm glad he's a Marine first and a Republican second...

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I guess I'm glad he's a Marine first and a Republican second...I'm hoping a lot of people are discovering that they should be Americans first and Republicans (or Democrats, to be fair) second.

[Lindsey]

I'm hoping a lot of people are discovering that they should be Americans first and Republicans (or Democrats, to be fair) second.
For sure loyalty to party should not trump what one knows to be the good of the country. Too often it seems to, though. I mean, do any of the defenders of the abusive practices at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay really think it is in the country's best long-term interests to trivialize torture?

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

For sure loyalty to party should not trump what one knows to be the good of the country. Too often it seems to, though. I mean, do any of the defenders of the abusive practices at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay really think it is in the country's best long-term interests to trivialize torture?Some of them, to give them their due, actually do think torture is justifiable if the end is important enough ("the end justifies the means"). What they forget is that our soldiers and, on occasion, civilians may be subjected to the same treatment by others ("what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander").

[Lindsey]

Some of them, to give them their due, actually do think torture is justifiable if the end is important enough ("the end justifies the means").
Even if they really do think it is justifiable (a position I think goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for), that is no reason to trivialize it, to say that, for example, chaining someone's arms to a wall for 40 hours so that he can't take the weight off of his feet without risking dislocating his shoulders is no worse than being on your feet all day at the office, or that the sexual humiliation that prisoners were subjected to at Abu Ghraib is no worse than a fraternity hazing. That's simply execrable. If they want to defend torture, then they need to start by being honest about what it is they're actually doing.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Even if they really do think it is justifiable (a position I think goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for), that is no reason to trivialize it... If they want to defend torture, then they need to start by being honest about what it is they're actually doing.I agree, but you know and I know that the position that "torture is okay as long as we do it" is unlikely to fly politically and they're not going to put themselves in the position of losing the political battle by characterizing their views honestly.

[Lindsey]

I agree, but you know and I know that the position that "torture is okay as long as we do it" is unlikely to fly politically and they're not going to put themselves in the position of losing the political battle by characterizing their views honestly.
Once again putting politics ahead of what is right for the country. :( But it's the fault of those of use in the electorate and the target audiences that we accept that, even demand it, as much as it is the fault of the people who are handing it out.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Once again putting politics ahead of what is right for the country. :( But it's the fault of those of use in the electorate and the target audiences that we accept that, even demand it, as much as it is the fault of the people who are handing it out.No question about that. I'm just hoping the electorate is starting to see through that sort of crap.

[Lindsey]

No question about that. I'm just hoping the electorate is starting to see through that sort of crap.
I'm counting on Lincoln being right about not being able to fool all of the people all of the time!

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I'm counting on Lincoln being right about not being able to fool all of the people all of the time!We can hope...

[Lindsey]

We can hope...
And then there is the George W. Bush version of that which I happened to see today:

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on."
-- George W. Bush, Gridiron Club dinner, 24 March 2001

:(

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

And then there is the George W. Bush version of that which I happened to see today:

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on."
-- George W. Bush, Gridiron Club dinner, 24 March 2001

:( Even though it was at the Gridiron Club (where it's supposed to be funny), it's still frightening.

[Lindsey]

Even though it was at the Gridiron Club (where it's supposed to be funny), it's still frightening.
Yeah, like the time he addressed the crowd at one of those big-ticket fundraising dinners with: "Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." Too much truth there to make it comfortable to laugh.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Yeah, like the time he addressed the crowd at one of those big-ticket fundraising dinners with: "Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." Too much truth there to make it comfortable to laugh.Yeah, but if you don't laugh, you cry...

[Lindsey]

Yeah, but if you don't laugh, you cry...
Come to think of it, yes, you're right about that.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

Yeah, like the time he addressed the crowd at one of those big-ticket fundraising dinners with: "Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." Too much truth there to make it comfortable to laugh.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

I saw that on cable...think that was the day I ground one of my molars into dust.

:-(