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View Full Version : What to do -- mouse elbow?!?


Judy G. Russell
October 12th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Okay, I'm gonna have to trade in my mouse for something that doesn't create or exacerbate repetitive stress injury of the elbow -- a/k/a mouse elbow (or tennis elbow, if you prefer).

Has anybody experienced this, and is there anything out there that really helps? I don't have any trouble typing -- it's the mouse action that's gonna kill me.

Thanks!

Mike
October 13th, 2006, 12:42 AM
Have you tried either a trackball or a touchpad? I used a trackball when I worked at EastBay Voice, and it didn't take me too long to get used to it. I believe the acceleration can be adjusted just like a mouse. I don't know if newer versions provide emulation of the scroll wheel on the mouse, but it may be worth checking into a cheap trackball to see if you can use it, and if so, then looking for the "right" trackball.

ndebord
October 13th, 2006, 03:05 AM
Okay, I'm gonna have to trade in my mouse for something that doesn't create or exacerbate repetitive stress injury of the elbow -- a/k/a mouse elbow (or tennis elbow, if you prefer).

Has anybody experienced this, and is there anything out there that really helps? I don't have any trouble typing -- it's the mouse action that's gonna kill me.

Thanks!

Judy,

Repetitive motion is the culprit. I ran an ad shop years ago and I made my typesetters stop working every half hour and do something else with their hands because of the numbers of people I knew who had Carpal.

You can buy keyboards with either touchpads or trackballs. I have found that trackballs take more movement of the hands, as does that little IBM Touchpad "nub" thingee. I have always liked using the touchpad, as it is right there on the keyboard. If you do go in that direction be prepared for a learning curve to make it work as well as a mouse. It is initially harder for some. Finally, make sure that the touchpad is directly under the spacebar. A lot of laptops have if off center to make room for various parts. Bad idea and I won't buy any laptop like that. Your palm then touches the pad and the old cursor skip is the result.

Peter Creasey
October 13th, 2006, 09:17 AM
repetitive stress injury of the elbow -- a/k/a mouse elbow (or tennis elbow, if you prefer).
Has anybody experienced this, and is there anything out there that really helps?

Judy, I have had these types of problems with my wrist, elbow, and shoulder. I have been able to remediate all of them thus far (knock on wood!) by being very careful to change the angle with which I handle the mouse and keyboard. The key is to find the right angle that is not a strain. Also, I have found that I need to work the mouse slower and with less intensity.

No further problems recently (again knocking on wood)!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 09:37 AM
Have you tried either a trackball or a touchpad? I used a trackball when I worked at EastBay Voice, and it didn't take me too long to get used to it. I believe the acceleration can be adjusted just like a mouse. I don't know if newer versions provide emulation of the scroll wheel on the mouse, but it may be worth checking into a cheap trackball to see if you can use it, and if so, then looking for the "right" trackball.I don't much like touchpads but I've been looking to see if there's a decent trackball out there. If you (or anyone else) has a recommendation, let me know!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 09:38 AM
I have always liked using the touchpad, as it is right there on the keyboard.I never could quite get used to the touchpad. What I'd really like is everything controlled from the keyboard, but that's darned near impossible...

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 09:39 AM
Judy, I have had these types of problems with my wrist, elbow, and shoulder. I have been able to remediate all of them thus far (knock on wood!) by being very careful to change the angle with which I handle the mouse and keyboard. The key is to find the right angle that is not a strain. Also, I have found that I need to work the mouse slower and with less intensity.There's a mouse I saw that forces your hand to the handshake position. I wonder if that would be any better.

ktinkel
October 13th, 2006, 10:45 AM
Has anybody experienced this, and is there anything out there that really helps? I once had a serious bout of what I called “Mac elbow,” which is a form of tendinitis. It got serious in my case because I tried to wait it out. Bad move.

Ended up getting a cortisone injection, but it still took a long time to heal. I tried mousing left-handed (more frustrating and occasionally hilarious than useful), tried trackballs (also frustrating; I still hate them).

Finally started using a small Wacom tablet and its pen instead of the mouse, and that allowed my arm to heal.

The action is like writing or drawing. You hold the stylus like a pen, and click a switch on the side (there are other designs; that is how mine works). I have gone back to my mouse, mostly out of habit, but friends who have gone through elbow sieges now use the Wacom full-time.

I also found that icing the elbow helps. I think the traditional recommendation is for heat, but in my case it made things worse. Perhaps you should try both and see.

Do take care of it.

ktinkel
October 13th, 2006, 10:48 AM
There's a mouse I saw that forces your hand to the handshake position. I wonder if that would be any better.I think anything that changes the sort of movements you make will help. I had forgotten that shifting the mouse from the keyboard shelf up to the table and making other small changes also helped me.

earler
October 13th, 2006, 11:31 AM
I've always felt that mouse problems like you describe arise from overuse of it. There are splendid keyboard shortcuts and the better keyboards have things like a scroll wheel on the left, all of which reduce reliance on the rodent.

-er

Dan in Saint Louis
October 13th, 2006, 12:57 PM
I think anything that changes the sort of movements you make will help. I had forgotten that shifting the mouse from the keyboard shelf up to the table and making other small changes also helped me.
Even changing the height of your chair can help.

Jeff
October 13th, 2006, 01:34 PM
I don't much like touchpads but I've been looking to see if there's a decent trackball out there. If you (or anyone else) has a recommendation, let me know!

The absolutely best trackball ever made is the Logitech Trackman Marble FX, which the fools discontinued a few years ago. When I thought that mine of eight years might be failing I found several offers on eBay, and bought one. Mine immediately sensed that something was going on, and got a new lease on life. Its replacement awaits the need as I just simply will not do without one. Yes, with a PS2 USB adapter plug it runs just fine on a USB2 port and XP.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 04:24 PM
The absolutely best trackball ever made is the Logitech Trackman Marble FXIs this (http://search.ebay.com/Logitech-Trackman-Marble-FX_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8) the one you're talking about, Jeff?

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 04:27 PM
I think anything that changes the sort of movements you make will help. I had forgotten that shifting the mouse from the keyboard shelf up to the table and making other small changes also helped me.I'm going to have to review my entire set-up, I think. It's really not optimal, but until this thing hit me all of a sudden, I wasn't thinking about it. Now I don't have any choice but to think about it!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 04:28 PM
There are splendid keyboard shortcuts and the better keyboards have things like a scroll wheel on the left, all of which reduce reliance on the rodent.Do you have a specific recommendation on the keyboards? I don't like the split thingy that Microsoft has...

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 04:32 PM
I once had a serious bout of what I called “Mac elbow,” which is a form of tendinitis. It got serious in my case because I tried to wait it out. Bad move.
That's what this is -- quite clearly the tendonitis that's generally labeled "tennis elbow" but in my case really should be called "mouse elbow."

started using a small Wacom tablet and its pen instead of the mouse, and that allowed my arm to heal. The action is like writing or drawing. You hold the stylus like a pen, and click a switch on the side (there are other designs; that is how mine works). I have gone back to my mouse, mostly out of habit, but friends who have gone through elbow sieges now use the Wacom full-time.I'll look into it, thanks.

I also found that icing the elbow helps. I think the traditional recommendation is for heat, but in my case it made things worse. Perhaps you should try both and see. Do take care of it.These days, the recommendation is rest and ice. The ice is easy. The rest, given that I'm as far from being ambidexterous as you can be and still have two hands, is more problematic. But rest assured I will take care of it. The YEOWCH I feel every time I try to pick something heavy up with my right hand guarantees that!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Even changing the height of your chair can help.That I can and will do, thanks.

earler
October 13th, 2006, 05:31 PM
I like the logitech keyboards, especially the wireless ones. A set of kbd and mouse are ideal, without those damned wires.

-er

ndebord
October 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Do you have a specific recommendation on the keyboards? I don't like the split thingy that Microsoft has...

Judy,

If you are still interested in all-in-one keyboard/touchpad/trackball combos. This is one company of many:

http://www.fentek-ind.com/trackball-keyboard.htm

Lindsey
October 13th, 2006, 06:54 PM
That I can and will do, thanks.
Loren once told me that she used a lapboard or something to be able to use the mouse down below even the level of the keyboard.

I had a trackball that plugged into my first laptop that is still the most comfortable one that I have ever used, and I haven't seen anything else that was made like it, and it was made specifically to attach to that laptop. The buttons wrapped around the ball, so that I could curl my hand around the end of the device opposite the point where it was attached to the PC, move the ball with my thumb, use my middle finger to click the left mouse button, and the heel of my hand to click right mouse button. I don't know why they don't make more of that sort of design.

My favorite mouse these days is a Microsoft cordless optical mouse (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wireless-Notebook-Optical-Slate/dp/B0002CPBWI). The size and contour fit my hand perfectly; Microsoft has larger models for those with larger hands. I never feel any strain when I'm using that mouse, unlike the wired optical mouse I use at work (and which doesn't have those nice contours).

--Lindsey

Peter Creasey
October 13th, 2006, 07:23 PM
I'm going to have to review my entire set-up

Judy, I agree!

Everything you are hearing here is consistent with what I was mentioning. Changing the angles, height, etc. may very well relieve your problems...at least, it did mine thus far.

Your arm should be pretty much horizontal. Try to have your posture so that you use your big muscles more than your small ones. And no sudden moves!

Also, be sure you have really good padding where your wrist meets the table top when using the mouse. A sharp edge at this location is very bad.

ktinkel
October 13th, 2006, 07:44 PM
Best of luck with it. Nasty kind of pain.

Lindsey
October 13th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Your arm should be pretty much horizontal.
Now that's the position I find most uncomfortable. Right now, I've got my mouse positioned so that my arm is bent at maybe about a 60 degree angle when using it, and the motion is mostly in my wrist and fingers. And that feels perfectly comfortable to me -- no strain on either my shoulder or my elbow.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 10:54 PM
My favorite mouse these days is a Microsoft cordless optical mouse (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wireless-Notebook-Optical-Slate/dp/B0002CPBWI). The size and contour fit my hand perfectly; Microsoft has larger models for those with larger hands. I never feel any strain when I'm using that mouse, unlike the wired optical mouse I use at work (and which doesn't have those nice contours).This is actually a little different than a mouse-hand issue; it's really a movement-arm issue. It's the amount of mousing that's causing most of the hassles rather than the mousing itself, I think. So I'm concentrating as much as possible on using the keyboard and keyboard shortcuts, etc. And I did an icing this evening and will try to continue that several times a day.

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Your arm should be pretty much horizontal. Try to have your posture so that you use your big muscles more than your small ones. And no sudden moves!Using the big muscles seems to put more strain on the shoulder and upper arm, and I don't want to cure one problem only to create another!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 10:57 PM
If you are still interested in all-in-one keyboard/touchpad/trackball combos. This is one company of many: http://www.fentek-ind.com/trackball-keyboard.htmWow! Great ideas there, Nick! Thanks!

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 11:00 PM
I like the logitech keyboards, especially the wireless ones. A set of kbd and mouse are ideal, without those damned wires. I don't see anything from Logitech now that has a keyboard and trackball or touchpad combo.

Judy G. Russell
October 13th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Best of luck with it. Nasty kind of pain.Thanks. It sure is a pain in the ... elbow.

Lindsey
October 13th, 2006, 11:48 PM
This is actually a little different than a mouse-hand issue; it's really a movement-arm issue.
For me, it's pretty much all of a piece. If the mouse is not comfortable in my hand, the strain goes through my whole arm. If I can hold my hand naturally, it's easier to use my entire arm more naturally.

--Lindsey

ndebord
October 14th, 2006, 12:34 AM
Wow! Great ideas there, Nick! Thanks!

Judy,

Since I've been a laptop only kind of guy at home, whenever I was in an office, I had to use a mouse. I found that, over time, the touchpad was as good as the mouse. But it did take time. Since I didn't want to carry a serial (in those days) mouse around with me, I learned how to do everything with the touchpad. A friend who is a whiz with Word with talking me through a procedure and was complaining that I wasn't doing it right because of the touchpad. The reality was I just wasn't getting the key/mouse/touch/strokes. After hanging up, I tested doing the job both ways and found it was a dead tie. It does take time, but since there are touchpad keyboards and trackball keyboards, whatever works for you is what you should go for.

Finally, one of the reasons why I like the touchpad (and the trackball, IF located underneath the space bar is similar), is just how little movement is required to do something, unlike the mouse.

P.S. One additional point about movement of the arm, hand, fingers, etc. With the touchpad, I'm using my right forefinger to do most everything, including clicking on the touchpad buttons. Sometimes, I use my other hand, but I'm not ambidexterous (sp), so usually use the touchpad with just that finger and an occasional thumb.

Dan in Saint Louis
October 14th, 2006, 08:32 AM
Thanks. It sure is a pain in the ... elbow.
I have one of these (http://www.ciao.co.uk/Logitech_Trackman_Trackball__5434795) in the attic if you think it will help.

earler
October 14th, 2006, 12:24 PM
No logitech kbd and trackball combo. Trackballs are pretty much gone. As for touch pads, which I detest, you only find them on laptops, not desktops.

Jeff
October 14th, 2006, 01:00 PM
Is this (http://search.ebay.com/Logitech-Trackman-Marble-FX_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8) the one you're talking about, Jeff?

Yup, that's it. The top picture gives the best idea of how it works; you do not ever move your hand off the ergonomic grip. Thumb is left click, fourth finger is right click, and second and third fingers spin the ball. It's actually a four button mouse, but one of the four is lost, and the intended function of a second one is changed, by not having a PS2 port to plug into. But the changed one; left top white, is fine for moving the page or target around. Say it after me; you do not ever move your hand, much less your arm.

- Jeff

If you get one go to Logitech's site and search for the updated and final FX driver file. Or I can email it to you.

Judy G. Russell
October 14th, 2006, 08:19 PM
you do not ever move your hand, much less your arm.Bidding as we speak. Thanks.

Judy G. Russell
October 14th, 2006, 08:24 PM
For me, it's pretty much all of a piece. If the mouse is not comfortable in my hand, the strain goes through my whole arm. If I can hold my hand naturally, it's easier to use my entire arm more naturally.I've had that issue before; somehow this is different and I can't quite figure out why. Probably if I could figure out why, I could fix it!

Judy G. Russell
October 14th, 2006, 08:25 PM
No logitech kbd and trackball combo. Trackballs are pretty much gone. As for touch pads, which I detest, you only find them on laptops, not desktops.There are both many trackballs on the market and many keyboards with touchpads. There's a bigger market out there for these things than you may be aware of.

Judy G. Russell
October 14th, 2006, 08:26 PM
one of the reasons why I like the touchpad (and the trackball, IF located underneath the space bar is similar), is just how little movement is required to do something, unlike the mouse.At least until I get this under control, "little movement" is what I need.

Judy G. Russell
October 14th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I have one of these (http://www.ciao.co.uk/Logitech_Trackman_Trackball__5434795) in the attic if you think it will help.If you're willing to part with it, I'm sure willing to give it a try. Watch your email for more info.

ndebord
October 14th, 2006, 10:15 PM
At least until I get this under control, "little movement" is what I need.

Judy,

Well then, you could look for a keyboard that suits you and then use it until you can return to the external mouse.

Lindsey
October 14th, 2006, 11:21 PM
you do not ever move your hand, much less your arm.
That sounds like a pretty close equivalent to the trackball from my first Tosh!

--Lindsey

ktinkel
October 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Thanks. It sure is a pain in the ... elbow.You didn’t mention taking anything for the pain. I found ibuprofen worked well (600 mg every 6 hours). Not only a painkiller — an anti-inflammatory that actually helps the healing.

Best to take an acid-reducer (Zantac, Pepcid) while taking ibuprofen.

Judy G. Russell
October 15th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Well then, you could look for a keyboard that suits you and then use it until you can return to the external mouse.At the moment I'm waiting for one trackball which is being donated to a worthy cause (me!) and ebay bidding on the trackball Jeff suggested (and using my laptop with the touchpad). Let's see how those turn out.

Jeff
October 15th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Bidding as we speak. Thanks.

Whatever you pay for one you will not regret it. You will regret not getting one sooner. Do you have a PS2 port? But that's really not an issue...

- Jeff

Jeff
October 15th, 2006, 12:58 PM
That sounds like a pretty close equivalent to the trackball from my first Tosh!

--Lindsey

Yup, the one that plugged in and hung off the right side of the keyboard. When that Tosh died I went looking for a replacement ball mouse and stumbled on the FX, which is now still in use two machines later.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
October 15th, 2006, 01:10 PM
You didn’t mention taking anything for the pain. I found ibuprofen worked well (600 mg every 6 hours).I haven't really started that yet, but know I should...

Judy G. Russell
October 15th, 2006, 01:11 PM
Whatever you pay for one you will not regret it. You will regret not getting one sooner. Do you have a PS2 port? But that's really not an issue...I don't think so but a friend is supplying an adapter, I think.

ktinkel
October 15th, 2006, 02:08 PM
I haven't really started that yet, but know I should...I am always ambivalent about taking any pills, so know what you mean. If you are able to sleep and live, why jump in to anything.

An orthopedist might suggest an injection (probably of some form of cortisone) if the condition worsens. That has the advantage of lasting for a while. But maybe ice and a new pointing device will let you avoid all of that stuff.

Judy G. Russell
October 15th, 2006, 02:24 PM
I am always ambivalent about taking any pills, so know what you mean. If you are able to sleep and live, why jump in to anything.I may give it a few days using just the touchpad and laptop and see how that feels...

I am always ambivalent about taking any pills, so know what An orthopedist might suggest an injection (probably of some form of cortisone) if the condition worsens. That has the advantage of lasting for a while. But maybe ice and a new pointing device will let you avoid all of that stuff.I'd like to try to come up with what's effectively a permanent solution if possible.

Judy G. Russell
October 15th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Whatever you pay for one you will not regret it. You will regret not getting one sooner.Have I mentioned lately that I really hate the eBay software that lets people outbid you at the last possible second? I just got outbid on one this afternoon. But there are others... Sigh...

Lindsey
October 15th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Yup, the one that plugged in and hung off the right side of the keyboard.
That's it exactly. I still miss that trackball.

--Lindsey

Lindsey
October 15th, 2006, 11:27 PM
Have I mentioned lately that I really hate the eBay software that lets people outbid you at the last possible second? I just got outbid on one this afternoon.
Sniping, they call it. And I hate it, too. And it's partly because eBay itself does nothing to discourage it (and even seems to tacitly encourage it) that I got soured on eBay and really have no desire to participate there any more.

One thing you my try: when you place a bid, figure out the absolute maximum you would be willing to pay for something, and then make your maximum bid one complete bid level above that. That way, if a sniper comes through, at least they can't win by outbidding you by a penny -- they have to outbid you by a full bid.

Sniping only works by exploiting the chief difference between eBay and a live auction: in a live auction, there is no time limit, and the bidding goes on until all bidders have actively decided to drop out but one.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
October 16th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Sniping, they call it. ... One thing you my try: when you place a bid, figure out the absolute maximum you would be willing to pay for something, and then make your maximum bid one complete bid level above that. That way, if a sniper comes through, at least they can't win by outbidding you by a penny -- they have to outbid you by a full bid.Realistically, that's what I did, so I can't complain too much... but it's DAMNED annoying to be the high bidder by a BIG margin (my "no higher than this" bid level was $18 above the bidding) right up until the last second, and then lose out.

Jeff
October 16th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Realistically, that's what I did, so I can't complain too much... but it's DAMNED annoying to be the high bidder by a BIG margin (my "no higher than this" bid level was $18 above the bidding) right up until the last second, and then lose out.

I didn't bid on my FX replacement, I simply ("buy now") bought the damned thing from a guy in Greece. My old one was about $75 new. I paid about $150 for its replacement, but it was new too (he finds them scattered about Europe with original shrink wrap as they didn't catch on much there). That is how much I won't do without one.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
October 16th, 2006, 02:50 PM
I didn't bid on my FX replacement, I simply ("buy now") bought the damned thing from a guy in Greece.I'd have done that (I often do) but none of the current offerings have a "buy now" option.

Lindsey
October 16th, 2006, 10:45 PM
it's DAMNED annoying to be the high bidder by a BIG margin (my "no higher than this" bid level was $18 above the bidding) right up until the last second, and then lose out.
Absolutely; I want to feel that I at least declined an opportunity to outbid the final bidder. When somebody comes through and snatches it in the final seconds, the feeling is like having your purse snatched.

--Lindsey

Judy G. Russell
October 16th, 2006, 10:46 PM
the feeling is like having your purse snatched.Exactly. I really felt the thing was mine, and I was ready to bid again if need be, and then this #$%# software snags it out from under me. Bleah.