US to Give Geneva the Finger

[Lindsey]

Looks like the torturer-in-chief wins again.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/senators-snatch-defeat-from-jaws-of.html

"Relax," they said in November of 2000. "How much damage could he do in four years?"

Well -- now we know. We are become the Evil Empire. And my God have mercy on us all.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Maybe the chicken Dems will finally stand up for some important principle.

[Lindsey]

Maybe the chicken Dems will finally stand up for some important principle.
I'm not holding my breath. Harry Reid seems pleased with the compromise, and I think everybody is eager to declare victory and go home.

There is still a chance of mitigating the damage somewhat and saving habeas corpus (which has been little mentioned, but is stripped out of BOTH version of the bill), but it requires IMMEDIATELY calling on senators to support the Specter-Levin amendment: http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/ccr/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=5215

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

My Senators are both committed to the habeas corpus writ, thank heavens...

[Lindsey]

My Senators are both committed to the habeas corpus writ, thank heavens...
Well, I know what George Allen would say if he were asked. "I haven't made up my mind which way I'm going to vote." That's always the answer he gives whenever you inquire where he stands on a controversial issue. I'm hoping all that fence-straddling is going to give him a pain in a sensitive place.

I don't know about Warner. I'm not sure I have the heart to ask directly, though I did let him know about my support of that amendment.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I don't know about Warner. I'm not sure I have the heart to ask directly, though I did let him know about my support of that amendment.He does occasionally have his heart in the right place. Let's see if his brain -- and his vote -- go in the same direction.

[Lindsey]

He does occasionally have his heart in the right place. Let's see if his brain -- and his vote -- go in the same direction.
Sen. Warner is an old-school conservative, and in spite of the jokes that were cracked some years ago about him being "Mr. Elizabeth Taylor," he's very much is own man, and doesn't mind standing up to the party when they stray too far from what he sees as the conservative ideal. He pretty much single-handedly shot down Oliver North's bid for a US Senate seat some years back, something for which the hard right component of the Virginia GOP has still not entirely forgiven him, but it means that he's pretty much the only Republican I will entertain the thought of voting for any more.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

it means that he's pretty much the only Republican I will entertain the thought of voting for any more.We used to have a few like that in NJ. No more. Nowadays it's all anti-choice, anti-stem-cell research, pro-war...

[Lindsey]

We used to have a few like that in NJ. No more. Nowadays it's all anti-choice, anti-stem-cell research, pro-war...
Most of the moderate Republicans have been pushed in to retirement. I was just watching John Danforth on MTP; in spite of his support for Clarence Thomas, I think he's one of the good guys, too. As I recall, he left the senate because the atmosphere was gettting toxic, and moderates were being marginalized.

He's got a new book just out lamenting the powerful hold the Christian right has on the Republican Party. (And as an ordained minister himself, he cannot be accused of being anti-religious or anti-Christian.)

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

(And as an ordained minister himself, he cannot be accused of being anti-religious or anti-Christian.)Make that "should not," and not "cannot." The so-called Christian Right (which is neither) can (and probably will) accuse him anyway.

[Lindsey]

Make that "should not," and not "cannot." The so-called Christian Right (which is neither) can (and probably will) accuse him anyway.
Let me put it this way, then: He cannot reasonably be accused of being anti-religious or anti-Christian. (I tend to forget that with these clowns, reason is thrown completely out the window.)

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I tend to forget that with these clowns, reason is thrown completely out the window.Don't ever forget that. That's what makes them so $%#^ dangerous.

[Lindsey]

Don't ever forget that. That's what makes them so $%#^ dangerous.
You are certainly right about that! It's a little like encountering a rabid animal.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

You are certainly right about that! It's a little like encountering a rabid animal. Yeah, except that even in a Blue State you're not allowed to shoot 'em.

[Lindsey]

Yeah, except that even in a Blue State you're not allowed to shoot 'em.
<sigh> Sometimes being civilized is hard.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

I'm not holding my breath. Harry Reid seems pleased with the compromise, and I think everybody is eager to declare victory and go home.

There is still a chance of mitigating the damage somewhat and saving habeas corpus (which has been little mentioned, but is stripped out of BOTH version of the bill), but it requires IMMEDIATELY calling on senators to support the Specter-Levin amendment: http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/ccr/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=5215

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

Well, the torturers won. Bush signed the bill this morning. This from the ACLU via the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html

"The president can now - with the approval of Congress - indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions. Nothing could be further from the American values we all hold in our hearts than the Military Commissions Act."

[Judy G. Russell]

"Nothing could be further from the American values we all hold in our hearts than the Military Commissions Act."It's comments like this that make me proud of my membership in the ACLU.

[Lindsey]

Well, the torturers won. Bush signed the bill this morning.
The torturers won when the McCain-Warner-Graham coalition folded. I don't understand what BushCo has on all these guys, but they sure do seem to be able to target the right pressure points. Maybe if the Democrats win the House, we'll be able to find out just what kind of arm twisting is being done.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

The torturers won when the McCain-Warner-Graham coalition folded. I don't understand what BushCo has on all these guys, but they sure do seem to be able to target the right pressure points. Maybe if the Democrats win the House, we'll be able to find out just what kind of arm twisting is being done.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

It's the good old boys of the Republican Party at work: Joisey Nazis, KKK, End of Time Theocrats, Edmund Burke Aristocrats and wild-eyed Wilsonian cum Leninist interventionists.

Mix well with a weak Emperor and you have a script not even Hollywood would accept.

[Lindsey]

It's the good old boys of the Republican Party at work
It's not just the Republican Party. Do you see people protesting in the streets? Do you hear any outrage from John Q. Public in public forums? No. Not a bit. Until the authorities haul away someone close to them, too many people simply do not care.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

It's not just the Republican Party. Do you see people protesting in the streets? Do you hear any outrage from John Q. Public in public forums? No. Not a bit. Until the authorities haul away someone close to them, too many people simply do not care.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

The harbingers of future social dissolution are seldom recognized as such by the peoples of any land. Such is the weakness of democracy. But what goes around, comes around and there will be a day of reckoning.

[Lindsey]

The harbingers of future social dissolution are seldom recognized as such by the peoples of any land.
Only too true; and the people who try to sound the warning are dismissed as hysterics. That's what Homer told us about Troy. You wonder why human civilization hasn't accumulated a bit of additional wisdom in all the centuries since then.

I always used to wonder how it was that Germany, which was home to some of the greatest institutions of learning and enlightened scholarship in Europe at the dawn of the 20th century, became the seat of the most hated and feared totalitarian power of modern times. Now I have seen with my own eyes how the process begins.

We have lost habeas corpus, the cornerstone of all of the other freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, a fundamental component of Anglo-American law for more than 800 years. I still can't quite get my head around that.

I saw in the film clip of the signing Sen. John Warner shaking George Bush's hand. That really sent chills down my spine.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

Only too true; and the people who try to sound the warning are dismissed as hysterics. That's what Homer told us about Troy. You wonder why human civilization hasn't accumulated a bit of additional wisdom in all the centuries since then.

I always used to wonder how it was that Germany, which was home to some of the greatest institutions of learning and enlightened scholarship in Europe at the dawn of the 20th century, became the seat of the most hated and feared totalitarian power of modern times. Now I have seen with my own eyes how the process begins.

We have lost habeas corpus, the cornerstone of all of the other freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, a fundamental component of Anglo-American law for more than 800 years. I still can't quite get my head around that.

I saw in the film clip of the signing Sen. John Warner shaking George Bush's hand. That really sent chills down my spine.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

We will see if this radical legislation will stand. I have hope.

[ktinkel]

Well, I know what George Allen would say if he were asked. "I haven't made up my mind which way I'm going to vote." Unbelievably, that is roughly what Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut said the other day when asked if he believed it would be good if the Democrats gained the majority in Washington!

He said he hadn’t given it much thought!

[Judy G. Russell]

Unbelievably, that is roughly what Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut said the other day when asked if he believed it would be good if the Democrats gained the majority in Washington! He said he hadn’t given it much thought!And he wonders why he lost the primary???

[ndebord]

KT>> Originally Posted by ktinkel
Unbelievably, that is roughly what Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut said the other day when asked if he believed it would be good if the Democrats gained the majority in Washington! He said he hadn’t given it much thought!

And he wonders why he lost the primary???

Judy,

Joe losing the primary, is now dependent upon Republican fundraising from out of state contributors. His tether is now the RNC.

[ktinkel]

And he wonders why he lost the primary???Oh, I think he knows why he lost it. Sure do hope he loses the election, that’s all I can say. (Doesn’t look like it, but a girl can hope.)

[ktinkel]

Joe losing the primary, is now dependent upon Republican fundraising from out of state contributors. His tether is now the RNC.Hmm. Not positive about that; he had quite a war chest when he began, and has many major contributors from the insurance and other industries.

On the other hand, we are hearing rumors here that he is thinking of changing parties after the election. Not sure whether the rumors reflect wishful thinking — nor who is doing the wishing!

But the GOP is letting its candidate twist in the wind, that’s for sure. Who knows? I no longer have good contacts in state politics, so can ony guess.

::

[Judy G. Russell]

On the other hand, we are hearing rumors here that he is thinking of changing parties after the election. Not sure whether the rumors reflect wishful thinking — nor who is doing the wishing!I would be outraged as a CT resident if I voted for Lieberman and then had him suddenly declare he was a Republican (all along???).

[ktinkel]

I would be outraged as a CT resident if I voted for Lieberman and then had him suddenly declare he was a RepublicanNot sure about the residents in general but many Democrats (though far from all) are outraged by his choosing to ignore the primary results and run as an “independent Democrat,” whatever that is.

If he wins the election, I hope the Senate Democrats shun him — but doubt that will happen. Especially if the Dems do pick up 6 seats, but only 6. Then they will want to keep him. (Of course, being Lieberman, that is when he might decide to change parties!)

To be fair, I do not like the man. When we first moved to CT 30 years ago, I did some volunteer work for our local State Rep in Hartford, and that is where I first ran into Joe Lieberman, who was also a Rep. He struck me as a poor team player then, and he still does. So I am hardly an impartial observer.

[Judy G. Russell]

He struck me as a poor team player then, and he still does. So I am hardly an impartial observer.His behavior as a result of the primary shows he's not a team player! Or at least not on the Democratic party team.

[Lindsey]

He said he hadn’t given it much thought!
I saw that. He obviously doesn't want to tick off his Republican friends.

I read a post from a Connecticut voter the other day, one who claimed to be a Libertarian, I believe. Said he couldn't stand the Republican candidate or the Republican party, and that he didn't like Lieberman any better -- had opposed just about every position he had ever taken. And further, that Lamont seemed like a "regular guy" the he would feel good to have as a neighbor. But that he planned to vote for Lieberman, because Lamont was a rich "limosine liberal".

I didn't quite understand the logic, but from the polls, I guess there must be quite a few people in Connecticut who saw it the same way.

I hear the Republican is not going to lie down and play dead, though, and there was some hopeful chatter on Salon in the wake of the recent debate that he might just be able to play "spoiler" after all.

--Lindsey

P.S. I also saw quotations from Lieberman that looked to me like veiled threats that he would switch caucuses if the Dems weren't nice to him.

[Lindsey]

But the GOP is letting its candidate twist in the wind, that’s for sure.
And that's what Joe is depending on the GOP for, more than funds. He'd lose in a three-way race if there were a vigorous Republican candidate.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

I would be outraged as a CT resident if I voted for Lieberman and then had him suddenly declare he was a Republican (all along???).
Connecticut voters who vote for Lieberman deserve what they get. If they want a Democratic senator, then they should vote for the Democratic candidate -- the real one, the one who is the party nominee. It's not like it's any secret that Lieberman has been playing footsie with the Republicans for a long time now. That's why he lost the primary.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

His behavior as a result of the primary shows he's not a team player! Or at least not on the Democratic party team.
His behavior in the wake of the 2000 election showed he wasn't a team player. He went on one of the Sunday talk shows to say that Democrats shouldn't challenge military absentee ballots that didn't meet the validation requirements (and there are suspicions that there was some hanky-panky played with those ballots), and as I recall, he seemed to come down on the side of those who were calling for Gore to conceed rather than insist on a Florida recount.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

His behavior in the wake of the 2000 election showed he wasn't a team player. He went on one of the Sunday talk shows to say that Democrats shouldn't challenge military absentee ballots that didn't meet the validation requirements (and there are suspicions that there was some hanky-panky played with those ballots), and as I recall, he seemed to come down on the side of those who were calling for Gore to conceed rather than insist on a Florida recount.Well, I hope the voters of CT remember all of that on November 7.

[ktinkel]

Oh, well — and what about retaining his Senate seat while running for the vice-presidency? I know it is legal, but it certainly sends a “me-first-last-and-always” sort of message to voters. Joe’s interests are his own, not those of the party.

[ktinkel]

Connecticut voters who vote for Lieberman deserve what they get. Yep. Unfortunately, the rest of us will get it too.

[ktinkel]

Said he couldn't stand the Republican candidate or the Republican party, and that he didn't like Lieberman any better -- had opposed just about every position he had ever taken. And further, that Lamont seemed like a "regular guy" the he would feel good to have as a neighbor. But that he planned to vote for Lieberman, because Lamont was a rich "limosine liberal".

I didn't quite understand the logicMe neither. But voters all dance to their own tune.

P.S. I also saw quotations from Lieberman that looked to me like veiled threats that he would switch caucuses if the Dems weren't nice to him.We see that in the local political columns. What a mensch he is! :mad:

[Judy G. Russell]

Yep. Unfortunately, the rest of us will get it too.As did all of us who said the same thing to the Green Party voters in 2000...

[ktinkel]

As did all of us who said the same thing to the Green Party voters in 2000...Indeed. Sigh.

[Lindsey]

Oh, well — and what about retaining his Senate seat while running for the vice-presidency? I know it is legal, but it certainly sends a “me-first-last-and-always” sort of message to voters. Joe’s interests are his own, not those of the party.
Exactly -- the common thread in all of this is that as far as Lieberman is concerned, it's always about Joe Lieberman, first, last, and always.

The Alito vote is a good example. He refused to support a filibuster effort by Democrats, which would have blocked the confirmation; only after cloture was invoked and Alito was a shoo-in did Lieberman turn around and cast a meaningless vote against Alito. That lets him claim he voted against the appointment of a hyper-conservative justice to the Supreme Court, but of course, the vote that really counted was the one on the cloture question. He did the same thing with the bankruptcy bill. And that's why I'm not at all impressed when he claims he voted with Democrats ninety-some percent of the time. On the tough issues where it really counts, he's always on the other side, always undermining Democrats and giving the Republicans "bi-partisan" cover.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Yep. Unfortunately, the rest of us will get it too.
Unfortunately, yes. But at least you'll have every right to be furious at Lieberman over it.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

What a mensch he is! :mad:
Hah! Yeah. I remember getting slammed in the runup to the primary season leading into the 2004 election for disagreeing with someone who was serious about saying "What a mensch!"

--Lindsey

[MollyM/CA]

"How much damage could he do in four years?"

Well -- now we know.

Brilliantly stated.