Tell the truth...

[Judy G. Russell]

... does anybody here REALLY care about the World Cup?

(I'm rooting for Italy. (a) My German genes won't let me root for the French. (b) The Italian players are hotter than the French...)

[Lindsey]

... does anybody here REALLY care about the World Cup?
Are you kidding? I don't even care about baseball!

(OK, I confess: I did smile when Ghana defeated the US, not because I was rooting against the US, but because I have a soft heart for underdogs. Other than that -- no, I couldn't care less.)

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Are you kidding? I don't even care about baseball!Now now... it's one thing not to care about some game the flatland ferriners can't even call by the right name (football? that's played in the fall!), but not to care about baseball????

Go Yanks!

[ndebord]

... does anybody here REALLY care about the World Cup?

(I'm rooting for Italy. (a) My German genes won't let me root for the French. (b) The Italian players are hotter than the French...)

Judy,

Go Blue!

;-)

[ndebord]

Are you kidding? I don't even care about baseball!

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

Now...now...excommunication is not something undertaken friviously!

[Jeff]

... does anybody here REALLY care about the World Cup?

(I'm rooting for Italy. (a) My German genes won't let me root for the French. (b) The Italian players are hotter than the French...)

What, you don't care about the beautiful game? You just haven't seen enough of it.

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

Go Blue!Eeerrr... don't both teams wear blue? (This is, I gather, something along the lines of my leaving a note for a jetlagged houseguest who punked out after the eighth inning of a Yankees-Mets World Series game that read, in its entirety, "NY won.")

[Judy G. Russell]

What, you don't care about the beautiful game? You just haven't seen enough of it.I've seen a lot more than I cared to, believe me. My sister and her husband coach kids' soccer, and she was visiting a couple of weeks ago, so I saw three or four full games...

[BobStone]

Cup of what?

-Bob

[Judy G. Russell]

Cup of what? HEMLOCK!!! (Although I must say that some of those players are indeed a superior breed of eye candy...)

[Lindsey]

Now now... it's one thing not to care about some game the flatland ferriners can't even call by the right name (football? that's played in the fall!), but not to care about baseball????
I used to sort of like baseball -- baseball and basketball were the only sports I felt I halfway understood -- but the game totally turns me off now.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I love baseball (well, Yankees baseball at any rate), like basketball in March Madness (the kids bring a zest to things the pros don't even pretend to have) and will be a Giants fan 'til the day I die. Go Big Blue!

Other than that... bleah. Soccer? Hockey?? Cricket??? Or worse... car racing? or golf??? Bleah, I say!

[ndebord]

Eeerrr... don't both teams wear blue? (This is, I gather, something along the lines of my leaving a note for a jetlagged houseguest who punked out after the eighth inning of a Yankees-Mets World Series game that read, in its entirety, "NY won.")

Judy,

I never said you were dumb.

;-)

[Judy G. Russell]

I never said you were dumb.;-)Crazy, yes. Dumb, no.

[Judy G. Russell]

What, you don't care about the beautiful game?Beautiful game? Right. Watch it right here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1i_l0OeeMc).

[earler]

Given mazzerati made a remark about the morals of zidane's mother, is it surprising. Note that the italian players are very racist. They also played dirty in this, as well as in other games.

-er

[lensue]

>Beautiful game? Right. Watch it <

Judy, I prefer my sport--gardening--what hype--who needs it! [g] We were up in Ulster County NY this weekend enjoying lovely private gardens through the Garden Conservancy! Regards, Len

[ndebord]

Crazy, yes. Dumb, no.

Judy,

If that be crazy, then the world is sane.

<g>

[Jeff]

Beautiful game? Right. Watch it right here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1i_l0OeeMc).

Yeah, I saw that live. But note that he didn't use his hands. That would have been illegal.

- Jeff

http://www.comcast.net/sports/index.jsp?cat=SPORTS&fn=/2006/07/11/431570.html&cvqh=itn_headbutt

[Judy G. Russell]

Gee, what a surprise that Mr. "France is wonnnnnnnderful" would side with Zidane on this. I guess mothers in France these days don't teach their kids that "sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will never harm me"...

Nope. Sorry. Doesn't fly. I don't care what the Italian player said. Headbutting is a red card offense, period.

[Judy G. Russell]

Hmmm... those hydrangeas look really nice...

[Judy G. Russell]

Yeah, I saw that live. But note that he didn't use his hands. That would have been illegal.I've heard of using your head, but not quite in this context...

[earler]

Zidane's head-butting did receive a deserved red card. However, mazzerati did goad him with a racist and insulting remark. Note the italians did play dirty and racist remarks are far too common among their players, too. Unlike the other european teams, all the italian players are lily white.

-er

[Lindsey]

Given mazzerati made a remark about the morals of zidane's mother, is it surprising. Note that the italian players are very racist. They also played dirty in this, as well as in other games.
You know, when I saw that clip on the news, I wondered if the Italian player had said or done something to incite that head butt. I couldn't imagine why else ZZ would have gone after him like that.

And they wonder why I don't give a fig about sports.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Nope. Sorry. Doesn't fly. I don't care what the Italian player said. Headbutting is a red card offense, period.
Soccer likely doesn't recognize it, but am I right that at one time, at least, there was a doctrine in American law known as "fighting words" that was an allowable defense to an assault charge against someone who employed them?

Note, too, that Zidane's mother had been taken to the hospital hours before the final. If the Italian player really did grossly insult her, it's not too surprising he got the reaction he did. And maybe that's exactly what he intended.

Sorry; if the Italians have to cheat to win, I fail to see why they should be clapped on the back.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Zidane's head-butting did receive a deserved red card. However, mazzerati did goad him with a racist and insulting remark.Interesting that, alone among mankind (except for Zidane and Materrazi), you know what it was that Materrazi said. Even BBC has two different versions:

BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator.

She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday.

The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following:

Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down".

He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself".

[Judy G. Russell]

The law doesn't recognize "fighting words" as protected free speech... but in most cases you can't hit somebody for what he says. And Zidane is no wilting violet -- he's been red-carded for much worse (like stomping on a Saudi player in a prior World Cup game).

Apparently, and this is something that doesn't surprise me, soccer players (like football players and those playing just about any sport) tend to taunt each other -- often nastily. It's the job of each not to rise to what's being said.

[lensue]

>those hydrangeas look really nice<

Judy, yeah, they sure were healthy--all the plants we saw looked pretty darn healthy. The display in the garden that featured astilbe was the largest display of that kind I have ever seen--extraordinary! Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

The display in the garden that featured astilbe was the largest display of that kind I have ever seen--extraordinary!
I like the way they have mixed several shades of the same color to give you that blending effect.

--Lindsey

[earler]

Zidane was interviewed on two newscasts this evening. He said he regretted what he did because of children watching. He also said that materazzi had made very nasty comments about his sister and his mother.

Zidane is very impressive. He speaks very well and is basically a most decent man.

-er

[lensue]

>I like the way they have mixed several shades of the same color to give you that blending effect.<

Lindsey, yeah, that garden had it all--the hostas were superb also and were a good contrast for the astilbe. The last garden we went to was that of a professional landscape architect--he got his hands on some great materials to go with the wonderful plantings!

[Judy G. Russell]

He's also hot-tempered and has a history of getting red-carded for conduct after he gets insulted.

[Lindsey]

the hostas were superb
I really like hostas -- they're such classy plants.

--Lindsey

[earler]

You will note two things: Zidane has had few red cards in the later part of his career and racism is a problem in the world of soccer.

-er

[lensue]

>I really like hostas -- they're such classy plants.<

Lindsey, yeah, us too--we just put 6 more in a new area we're working on near our back deck--they are so classy! They keep developing new ones and some of the prices are incredibly expensive. Of course after a few years the prices tend to come down. The woman with the incredible astilbe collection said there are so few astilbe societies whereas in the world of hostas there's a society in every town! Regards, Len [g]

[Judy G. Russell]

I will also notice that this is hardly Zidane's first offense: "Zidane has occasionally shown a quick temper on the pitch. One such display occurred in a 2000/2001 Champions League match between Juventus Turin and Hamburger SV, in which Zidane headbutted Jochen Kientz; he received a red card for this action. He also received a red card and a two-game suspension for stamping on Saudi Arabia's team captain Fuad Amin in the 1998 World Cup, allegedly in response to an insult."

[earler]

Given that a professional career is short, those offenses were much earlier. Zidane is considered a gentleman by most people, other than you. But, you know little or nothing about him or the game.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

I know as much as any thoroughly educated person who can read. Which puts me far ahead of a substantial portion of the rest of the world.

[ndebord]

Given that a professional career is short, those offenses were much earlier. Zidane is considered a gentleman by most people, other than you. But, you know little or nothing about him or the game.

-er

Earle,

Ohhh. Methinks I smell "Sour Grapes."

I was at the food show at Javits Sunday and the Italian fans outnumbered the French by about 4 to 1. Being of French origin, I naturally hung out with the French fans. Think about it. The booths cost thousands and nobody was buying or selling in either the French or the Italian aisles where they had LCD TVs. Outside the display sections, it was surreal as there was one of those huge stadium displays and a huge crowd of people sitting wall to wall watching the game, the outnumbered French on one side and the larger Italian contingent on the other.

This one Frenchman, who was the ultimate fan, said it best. The Italian outfoxed Zidane which led to the French demise.

Outside of baseball, soccer is one of my favorite sports. As a fanatical goalie in river hockey growing up, I followed soccer when nobody else did because the two sports are remarkably similar. It's just a big, slow, soft ball instead of a small, fast, hard ball and the poor soccer goalies don't get to wack people with a stick!

I almost got my head handed to me once in Chicago when the Italians and the Brazilians faced off in the finals in the 90s and I was neutral about who should win. Figured out there was a very large contingent of Brazilians there, so modified my cheering and jeering and when I left the bistro (Old Town), the winning Brazilians filled the streets for blocks!

[earler]

No sour grapes at all. You might read bernard-henri levy's essay about the matter. It appeared in french in this week's le point and in english in the wsj on wednesday or thursday. Basically, he said that zidane turned out to be human and not a demi-god.

It was well known that the italians kept a steady stream of racist remarks toward zidane on the field, hoping to get him to lose his temper. I'd not call that very fair play. But, the italians are among the the best divers in soccer and also known for their racism.

-er

[Lindsey]

It was well known that the italians kept a steady stream of racist remarks toward zidane on the field, hoping to get him to lose his temper.
Whatever it was the Italian player said, Zidane is saying that the remark was NOT racist.

--Lindsey

[earler]

The remarks were racist and also about his mother and sister. I heard zidane in two interviews on french television. You base your remark on what? Did you listen to zidane?

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

You have apparently concluded there is only one side to this story, since the Italian player has flatly denied making the remarks attributed to him by Zidane.

[Lindsey]

The remarks were racist and also about his mother and sister. I heard zidane in two interviews on french television. You base your remark on what? Did you listen to zidane?
I was going by a news report I heard here. But if you heard Zidane claim that Materazzi made racial slurs, then you are apparently the only person in the world who did, because all of the papers are still reporting that exactly what was said is still a complete mystery. The only thing anyone else has heard Zidane say publicly was that it entailed gross insults to his mother and sister.

Don't misunderstand; I think the head butt was definitely in response to something Materazzi said, and I think Materazzi was wrong to taunt him; I think it was probably a calculated action, anticipating that Zidane would react as he did. And I think he (Materazzi) deserves censure for it.

But you're the only one who claims to know from the horse's mouth what was actually said.

--Lindsey

[earler]

It is clear that zidane didn't head-butt him to amuse himself and it wasn't because of the full moon.

-er

[earler]

Zidane did not quote mazerrati's remarks but said they concerned his mother, his sister and his origins. Aside from the insults to his family, mazerrati doesn't realize that zidane isn't arab but berber.

Of course, I don't know the exact words, but based on zidane's description, they weren't kind and gentle.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

It is clear that zidane didn't head-butt him to amuse himself and it wasn't because of the full moon. That of course doesn't mean he couldn't simply have lost his head over something vastly different ("off the field, old man... you're washed up... you're losing and you'll never play another game, pops"). You've assumed that his version is true and the Italian player's is a lie. I prefer to wait until the investigation is complete and all the facts are known before deciding who's right and who's wrong.