How to Help a Friend Who Gets Arrested in the Middle of the Night

[davidh]

http://www.wikihow.com/Help-a-Friend-Who-Gets-Arrested-in-the-Middle-of-the-Night

[davidh]

probably does not apply to dungeons

[Judy G. Russell]

Always keep about $500-$1000 available without having to go to the bank. Most minor crimes and traffic violations can be bailed out from the stationhouse through the use of a desk appearance ticket or a desk sergent's bail.Errr... no. I would NEVER keep that much cash around, and particularly not for the purpose of posting bail for somebody!

[MollyM/CA]

Is the part about not having to read the vict-- er, loved one his/her rights true? Odd to discover I'd been living in a police state, one in which the police have all the rights, even before it was decreed that The Law may now kick in my door, seize or plant anything they deem may be useful as 'evidence' (like my voting stub), and use it in court...

m

[Judy G. Russell]

Is the part about not having to read the vict-- er, loved one his/her rights true? The statement in the article is "Police do not have to `give you your rights,' and their failure to do so does not invalidate an arrest. They only have to give you your rights if they (a) arrest you and (b) ask you questions about the crime." And yep, it's generally the case. The rights at issue are your Miranda rights (after the landmark case of Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436 (1966)), and Miranda deals only with interrogation while in custody. I say "generally the case" because you can be in custody without technically being under arrest. Any time a reasonable person would conclude that he/she was not free to leave, it's custody, and Miranda applies any time there is custodial interrogation.

The only thing that may result from the failure of the police to read you your Miranda rights is that any statement you may make may be suppressed. The legality of any arrest itself is entirely separate. (Of course, if the arrest results from any statement you made while in custody and the statement itself is suppressed, then the arrest may also be suppressed as "the fruit of the poisonous tree".)

[Jeff]

Is the part about not having to read the vict-- er, loved one his/her rights true? Odd to discover I'd been living in a police state, one in which the police have all the rights, even before it was decreed that The Law may now kick in my door, seize or plant anything they deem may be useful as 'evidence' (like my voting stub), and use it in court...

m

I believe that in Colorado it is perfectly legal for me to defend my house with deadly force, even from the police. If they come through my door with no announcement, or maybe even with one, they'll be looking at a .38 Special with hollow points.

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

Colorado does have an extremely ... er ... odd ... view of self-defense. Not long ago, a jury -- we can only hope confused by ambiguities in a new law dubbed "Make My Day" by its chief proponents (the NRA, no surprise there) -- acquitted a defendant who shot a man who had threatened him earlier, even though the defendant was outside of his home at the time and the victim was driving away.

[Lindsey]

I believe that in Colorado it is perfectly legal for me to defend my house with deadly force, even from the police. If they come through my door with no announcement, or maybe even with one, they'll be looking at a .38 Special with hollow points.
Your face is the right color to make it more likely you could make that argument. But there's a guy named Cory Maye sitting on death row in Mississippi today precisely because he fired on a policeman who broke into his house in the middle of the night and appeared at the guy's bedroom door in the dark. Maye, not unreasonably, I think, feared for his life and that of his 18-moth-old daughter, who was in the apartment with him, and he shot at the intruder. He didn't know it was a policeman when he fired; he hit the guy below his bulletproof vest, and the policeman died. Unfortunately, Cory Maye is black, the policeman was white, and not only that, but the son of the town's police chief. Case closed, even though Maye had no criminal record, and the police were actually investigating the people who lived on the other side of the duplex.

There's an account here (http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php) and and update (with corrections to some misapprehensions) here (http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026002.php#026002).

--Lindsey

[Jeff]

Your face is the right color to make it more likely you could make that argument.
There's an account here (http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php) and and update (with corrections to some misapprehensions) here (http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026002.php#026002).

--Lindsey

Yeah, and this is Colorado, not Mississippi, or anywhere east of that river. For over 20 years I lived in Europe, where handguns for the most part are unheard of. I have the .38 and the box of hollow point bullets because of where I live now, in the middle of the largest natural gas field in the State. The problem is one word, meth. The word on the drilling rigs is 'If you're not wired, you're fired'. Twelve hour days of high speed pipe pushing; very very well paid (try $80k - 100k) for blue color work, certainly much more than enough to buy all the meth that's wanted or needed to keep pushing the pipe and making the money. That I-70 runs right through the middle of it all does not hurt the supply and distribution system either. It's a damned epidemic amongst the drill rig monkeys that's now sucking in the locals.

Do you know what meth does? With that in mind *anyone* coming through my door is dead, or close to it. Before I am. This is a seriously new experience, and I don't like it I assure you. But it's why I have a loaded .38.

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

It's a damned epidemic amongst the drill rig monkeys that's now sucking in the locals. Do you know what meth does? With that in mind *anyone* coming through my door is dead, or close to it. Before I am. This is a seriously new experience, and I don't like it I assure you. But it's why I have a loaded .38.Ouch. Under those circumstances, I can't blame you one bit. And while I was wondering about the hollow-point bullets, I now understand those as well. (Somebody on meth can be very VERY hard to take down.)

[Lindsey]

Do you know what meth does?
Not personally, no. ;) But I've read enough accounts to know that those guys would give King Kong a seriously hard time. But here I was thinking that epidemic drug crime like that was mainly a problem of the inner cities. Boy, what a world to have to live in.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

here I was thinking that epidemic drug crime like that was mainly a problem of the inner cities.For some reason, meth has always been a big drug of choice in rural areas. I suspect it's because it can be home-cooked, rather than having to be imported.

[ndebord]

Yeah, and this is Colorado, not Mississippi, or anywhere east of that river. For over 20 years I lived in Europe, where handguns for the most part are unheard of. I have the .38 and the box of hollow point bullets because of where I live now, in the middle of the largest natural gas field in the State. The problem is one word, meth. The word on the drilling rigs is 'If you're not wired, you're fired'. Twelve hour days of high speed pipe pushing; very very well paid (try $80k - 100k) for blue color work, certainly much more than enough to buy all the meth that's wanted or needed to keep pushing the pipe and making the money. That I-70 runs right through the middle of it all does not hurt the supply and distribution system either. It's a damned epidemic amongst the drill rig monkeys that's now sucking in the locals.

Do you know what meth does? With that in mind *anyone* coming through my door is dead, or close to it. Before I am. This is a seriously new experience, and I don't like it I assure you. But it's why I have a loaded .38.

- Jeff

Jeff,

If you're gonna keep a loaded gun around, look for something a bit more powerful than a .38. A .38 Special at the very least. You can't put people down with a .38 or a .32 although the hollowpoint can't hurt.

Having said that, I don't keep any guns of any kind around, although there is this one obnoxious neighbor...

[Lindsey]

For some reason, meth has always been a big drug of choice in rural areas. I suspect it's because it can be home-cooked, rather than having to be imported.
Interesting -- and disturbing!

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

Interesting -- and disturbing!Yeah, it is disturbing, and it is really Bad Stuff in capital letters. Long-term use, high dosages, or both can bring on full-blown toxic psychosis (often exhibited as violent, aggressive behavior). This violent, aggressive behavior is usually coupled with extreme paranoia. Very Bad Stuff.

[Lindsey]

Very Bad Stuff.
Indeed so -- really nasty. No wonder they've gotten so aggressive about restricting access to OTC cold medications.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

No wonder they've gotten so aggressive about restricting access to OTC cold medications.Exactly. I usually feel that government overreacts when it does something like that, but not in this case. This stuff is Very Bad.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

If you're gonna keep a loaded gun around, look for something a bit more powerful than a .38. A .38 Special at the very least. You can't put people down with a .38 or a .32 although the hollowpoint can't hurt.

Having said that, I don't keep any guns of any kind around, although there is this one obnoxious neighbor...

This is a .38 Special, Nick. A Charter Arms "Undercover". And hollowpoints.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/charter_undercover.htm

Nice balance, nice feel, and I really wish I didn't think that it's a good idea. But I do. And loaded as well.

- Jeff

[Jeff]

Yeah, it is disturbing, and it is really Bad Stuff in capital letters. Long-term use, high dosages, or both can bring on full-blown toxic psychosis (often exhibited as violent, aggressive behavior). This violent, aggressive behavior is usually coupled with extreme paranoia. Very Bad Stuff.

The best estimate hereabouts of the probability to use it once and walk away is about 20%, or less. IOW, damned near instant serious addiction for 80% of those who "try it". Eventually it kills, but commonly not soon enough.

- Jeff

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Eventually it kills, but commonly not soon enough.
And unfortunately it often kills the wrong people. Meth has become a popular addiction among over-the-road truck drivers, and it definitely impairs their judgement.

[ndebord]

This is a .38 Special, Nick. A Charter Arms "Undercover". And hollowpoints.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/charter_undercover.htm

Nice balance, nice feel, and I really wish I didn't think that it's a good idea. But I do. And loaded as well.

- Jeff

Jeff,

Sigh. I certainly have lived in neighborhoods where a gun would have been a security blanket, but at this point in my life, would not want to do so again. Having grown up a hunter, I did have a love afffair with firearms, but I've not picked up anything since a hunting trip with a nephew in the 80s and haven't owned a gun since 1970 (when I came back from 'Nam). Always liked the Colt Auto 1911 though for real stopping power, among other reasons.

[Judy G. Russell]

The best estimate hereabouts of the probability to use it once and walk away is about 20%, or less. IOW, damned near instant serious addiction for 80% of those who "try it".That's astounding... scary, too.

[Judy G. Russell]

...for real stopping power...If I do end up retiring out into the country (defined as not within line of sight to other houses and maybe a cop car or two!), I will get a great big shotgun. A handgun wouldn't help me one bit; I doubt that I could hit the broad side of a barn. But with a shotgun I'd have a fighting chance...

[Jeff]

And unfortunately it often kills the wrong people. Meth has become a popular addiction among over-the-road truck drivers, and it definitely impairs their judgement.

40 years ago, and probably still now, there were the little white pills called "west coast turnarounds". Amphetamine to be sure, but most certainly not meth. Amphetamine will let you down, meth won't.

- Jeff

[Karl Semper]

It is a major problem in Oklahoma. The number of meth labs found is down significantly since you can't buy drugs containing pseudoephedrine unless you sign for them and even then the quantity is limited. An unfortunate the side effect is that although I can manage my allergies with over the counter drugs containing pseudoephedrine, I can't buy enough of them during certain times of the year, so I am forced to use a perscription drug.

In our pre-employment drug screen program we find that about 33% of the people fail due meth. It is not only very addictive, it is very easy to make. There are many ways to make it, using some fairly easy to obtain chemicals. Hence the restriction on the sale of pseudoephedrine. Many of the byproducts of the cooking process are also very dangerous. I would not want to have to clean up a meth lab. They also have a tendency to explode/burn. Unfortunately it is usually the cooks family that suffers. Often these labs are set up in the kitchen of houses with young children running around among these very dangerous chemicals.

[ndebord]

If I do end up retiring out into the country (defined as not within line of sight to other houses and maybe a cop car or two!), I will get a great big shotgun. A handgun wouldn't help me one bit; I doubt that I could hit the broad side of a barn. But with a shotgun I'd have a fighting chance...

Judy,

The problem with a shotgun is getting to it fast enough when you really need it. The 45 auto Colt, otoh, can be cocked and ready to go. It is really an older design and has a squeeze grip (for lack of a better word) safety, along with a traditional one which I don't like to use. Its big old bullet is low velocity and high damage to the other party and it doesn't really kick anywhere near as much as a lighter gun. Give me the .45 and a .308 and I can (or at least I could in the old days) hit pretty much everything. With my current eyes and lack of practice, I probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn right now.

[Judy G. Russell]

I'd rather have to worry about getting to the weapon than getting to the weapon, shooting and missing and having it taken away from me and used against me!

[Judy G. Russell]

In our pre-employment drug screen program we find that about 33% of the people fail due meth.Good lord... that's appalling.

[Karl Semper]

That is down from 1995 when the failure rate was approaching 50%, although marijuana was more prevalent then. Due to the high failure rate and due to the equipment that our operators have to work with we also have a random drug screening progam. Unfortunately we have found that once gainfully employed some people who passed the pre-employment screening then turn to drugs. To date no one has entered the rehab program, they are then terminated for cause.

[ndebord]

I'd rather have to worry about getting to the weapon than getting to the weapon, shooting and missing and having it taken away from me and used against me!


Judy,

I don't care if you use a shotgun, a rifle or a handgun; without practice none of them will be of any use to you. It's just that with a handgun, it can be close at, ah, hand when you need it most.

[Judy G. Russell]

Karl, that's really quite distressing, and I'm sure for you as an employer it must be doubly upsetting -- to finally find a clean employee, get the training done and then still lose the person to drugs.

[Judy G. Russell]

I won't own a weapon without thorough training. It'd be as stupid as getting behind the wheel of a car without a clue what to do next.

[ndebord]

I won't own a weapon without thorough training. It'd be as stupid as getting behind the wheel of a car without a clue what to do next.


Judy,

That's easily taken care of. Just use the firing range/gun club where the wiseguys and the cops play nice together!

;-)

[Judy G. Russell]

That's easily taken care of. Just use the firing range/gun club where the wiseguys and the cops play nice together!I think I'll avoid the wiseguys, thanks. I prosecuted too many of them! (Or, by now, too many of their fathers!)

[ndebord]

I think I'll avoid the wiseguys, thanks. I prosecuted too many of them! (Or, by now, too many of their fathers!)

Judy,

There you go again...thinking like a D.A. <g,r&d> If it's good enough for the meatheads, it's good enough for me. You get to rub shoulders with guys that will be on the opposite side of jailhouse bars sooner or later and see who's playing with the best toys!

;-)

[Judy G. Russell]

I just don't want to be around anyone who has (a) a gun in his hands and (b) a grudge...

[ndebord]

I just don't want to be around anyone who has (a) a gun in his hands and (b) a grudge...


Judy,

Then it looks as though you'll have to build your own range, as your criteria definitely leaves out both the wiseguys and the meatheads!

<g,d&r real fast now>

[ndebord]

This is a .38 Special, Nick. A Charter Arms "Undercover". And hollowpoints.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/charter_undercover.htm

Nice balance, nice feel, and I really wish I didn't think that it's a good idea. But I do. And loaded as well.

- Jeff

Jeff,

Finally got around to following your linnk on the firearm. Have to say that I don't much care for the weapon. A two-inch barrel scares the livin' crap right out of me. I prefer at least a four-incher. Also the light weight and that cartridge...it's gotta have a kick and pulls up to boot.

Also, the new (post 98) Charter Arms have a bad reputation. The old ones were very dependable, but still a 2" barrel is almost as bad as having a derringer imo.

[Judy G. Russell]

Then it looks as though you'll have to build your own range, as your criteria definitely leaves out both the wiseguys and the meatheads! <g,d&r real fast now>Sigh...

[ndebord]

Sigh...

Judy,

Seriously though, IF you do want to learn, on the off chance that a handgun or a rifle or a shotgun would come in handy down the road, then I would go for the old rimfire .22 LR. Bullets are around 5 cents each and you can't go wrong in the pistola or rifle department with either a Ruger or a Browning. Solid shot for learning, hollow point for self-defense.

[Judy G. Russell]

Thanks, but very seriously, if I ever decide I want a gun, it will be exclusively for home protection, and then I will get (and learn to use) a shotgun.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

Finally got around to following your linnk on the firearm. Have to say that I don't much care for the weapon. A two-inch barrel scares the livin' crap right out of me. I prefer at least a four-incher. Also the light weight and that cartridge...it's gotta have a kick and pulls up to boot.

Also, the new (post 98) Charter Arms have a bad reputation. The old ones were very dependable, but still a 2" barrel is almost as bad as having a derringer imo.

I understand, Nick. But at the distance I expect to be using it, if at all... And I expect to only use one round, unless the sucker won't go down. And it's an older one; hammer and wood grip. Age unknown but in very good condition and it has been seen by a gunsmith. It's also of a size for a CC holster, if things come to that.

- Jeff

[Jeff]

Thanks, but very seriously, if I ever decide I want a gun, it will be exclusively for home protection, and then I will get (and learn to use) a shotgun.

Keep in mind that there is a 'sawed off' shotgun of a legal length. The cops use them to get through doorways easier than with a field length barrel. Brother has one, and it would be very easy to use indoors.

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

Keep in mind that there is a 'sawed off' shotgun of a legal length. The cops use them to get through doorways easier than with a field length barrel. Brother has one, and it would be very easy to use indoors.I will consider that when and if the time comes, Jeff. If the retirement situation is what I hope it is (surrounded by my brothers and sister), I'll let the boys handle the guns. :) :) But if I'm stuck out in the country with just my sister, I'll probably end up with a gun. :(

[ndebord]

I understand, Nick. But at the distance I expect to be using it, if at all... And I expect to only use one round, unless the sucker won't go down. And it's an older one; hammer and wood grip. Age unknown but in very good condition and it has been seen by a gunsmith. It's also of a size for a CC holster, if things come to that.

- Jeff

Jeff,

The older (particularly 80s) CharterArms Bulldogs, both .44 and .38 Special are good, for their price range. A 2-inch barrel, OTOH. <Brrrrrrrrrr> The Undercover model is not one I've heard about.

[ndebord]

Thanks, but very seriously, if I ever decide I want a gun, it will be exclusively for home protection, and then I will get (and learn to use) a shotgun.

Judy,

There's nothing that says you can't have both. Having something close to hand is key though imo.

[Judy G. Russell]

There's nothing that says you can't have both.True, but there's no sense in buying something I'll never use or feel comfortable with.

[Nick Parkin]

Judy,

There's nothing that says you can't have both. Having something close to hand is key though imo.

Jesus I ought to thank God every day that I don't live in the US! This thread ought to be publicised throughout the UK, to make people thankful that we don't live over there.

In fact maybe we ought to threaten our micreants with deportation to the US if they commit crime. ...... Hang on - that's been tried before 250 years ago. :D

[Judy G. Russell]

Most people in the US don't own a weapon, Nick, and most crime victims in the UK wish they did...

[ndebord]

Jesus I ought to thank God every day that I don't live in the US! This thread ought to be publicised throughout the UK, to make people thankful that we don't live over there.

In fact maybe we ought to threaten our micreants with deportation to the US if they commit crime. ...... Hang on - that's been tried before 250 years ago. :D

Nick,

I've read my Dickens and my social historians. Back when you Brits were shuffling off your miscreats to the United States, Australia and New Zealand, your crime rate didn't really fall, but then that wasn't really the reason for the diaspora. Overpopulation on a crowded island was the real issue of the time imo.

[ndebord]

True, but there's no sense in buying something I'll never use or feel comfortable with.


Judy,

You'll never know unless you go to a firing range and see how it actually feels.

[ndebord]

I understand, Nick. But at the distance I expect to be using it, if at all... And I expect to only use one round, unless the sucker won't go down. And it's an older one; hammer and wood grip. Age unknown but in very good condition and it has been seen by a gunsmith. It's also of a size for a CC holster, if things come to that.

- Jeff

Jeff,

Good that you took it to a gunsmith. An old gun can have many problems that you can't see by looking at it. I'd also take it to the range and test it out so that you get comfortable with the kick and its firing characteristics.

Still glad that I've not found the need here to own a gun in almost 40 years now.

[Judy G. Russell]

"Feel" here is being used in part in the emotional sense, not just the tactile sense.

[ndebord]

"Feel" here is being used in part in the emotional sense, not just the tactile sense.

Judy,

I hate to echo the gun nuts, but a gun is a tool. If you try out the standard trio: handgun, rifle, shotgun and THEN make a decision, I'd say you performed due diligence.

Still think it should be very, very hard to have any kind of gun around. Too many nuts and criminals to suit my taste. But considering how many are already out there, my views are decidedly illogical.

[Judy G. Russell]

I hate to echo the gun nuts, but a gun is a tool. If you try out the standard trio: handgun, rifle, shotgun and THEN make a decision, I'd say you performed due diligence.I've handled all three in my life, and for the single purpose for which I would consider a weapon -- home protection -- the shotgun works best for me.

Still think it should be very, very hard to have any kind of gun around. Too many nuts and criminals to suit my taste. But considering how many are already out there, my views are decidedly illogical.I dunno how illogical they are. Although I think the focus should be on removing illegal guns first, removing guns generally would be a very good thing. The only time I would even consider owning one is if I'm out in the country where calling the cops gets you a "we'll be there in a half hour or so" type response.

[ndebord]

I've handled all three in my life, and for the single purpose for which I would consider a weapon -- home protection -- the shotgun works best for me.

I dunno how illogical they are. Although I think the focus should be on removing illegal guns first, removing guns generally would be a very good thing. The only time I would even consider owning one is if I'm out in the country where calling the cops gets you a "we'll be there in a half hour or so" type response.

Judy,

So you've handled all 3 before, you sandbagger you! <g>

Well then enjoy your shotgun. And keep good locks on your doors, even in the country, so you can have time to get to it when you need it most!

Since you're talking country living, that means a Sheriff which generally means "we'll show up when we show up. By the way, are you related to 'Big Dog'? No?" click....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Judy G. Russell]

So you've handled all 3 before, you sandbagger you! <g> There are some advantages to having spent every summer of my youth on a 110-acre farm in Virginia.

Since you're talking country living, that means a Sheriff which generally means "we'll show up when we show up. By the way, are you related to 'Big Dog'? No?" click....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.Fact is, in most of Virginia, my answer would be, "Why, shore, Sheriff! He's married to my second cousin's neighbor's son's best friend's third cousin!"

[ndebord]

There are some advantages to having spent every summer of my youth on a 110-acre farm in Virginia.

Fact is, in most of Virginia, my answer would be, "Why, shore, Sheriff! He's married to my second cousin's neighbor's son's best friend's third cousin!"

Judy,

Sounds like a plan. Of course, you might be dead by the time you got that mouthful out of your vocal cords!

We had only a 1/4 acre, so when I was in middle school, that meant BB guns, although I would sneak off to the front of the swamp with a .410 and shoot at pheasants. Got in lots of trouble for that on more than one occasion. Of course the older kids would hand us better weapons as soon as we could hold on to them and then take us into the real woods, not all that far off. Handled just about everything by the time I left HS.

[Judy G. Russell]

Sounds like a plan. Of course, you might be dead by the time you got that mouthful out of your vocal cords!One thing you learn to do in the country is slow down...

[ndebord]

One thing you learn to do in the country is slow down...

Judy,

Slow is interesting. I'm sort of learning it here in Bayonne!

<g>

[Judy G. Russell]

Slow is interesting. I'm sort of learning it here in Bayonne!Er... I suspect that what passes for "slow" in Bayonne wouldn't pass muster in, say, southwestern Virginia...

[ndebord]

Er... I suspect that what passes for "slow" in Bayonne wouldn't pass muster in, say, southwestern Virginia...


Judy,

I don't know about that. Remember this town goes back to 1600 or so and some say it ain't changed in all that time.

<weak grin>