PDA

View Full Version : [Dixonary] Trouble voting?


Dodi Schultz
June 5th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Toni voted and added,

>> This is SOOOO not working. I had to wade through dozens of messages
>> to find the original base of the "thread".

I don't understand. How do you see the game, Toni? I'm getting messages on
the Yahoo listserv, and the list of defs simply comes through as a regular
e-mail message (from the group), to which one does a direct reply (which
will in turn be sent to the group as well as to the forum at
tapcis.com--i.e., publicly "posted" to all).

Why do you have to wade through DOZENS OF MESSAGES and find some other
message in order to reply?

--Dodi



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans [PG2002]
June 5th, 2005, 08:52 PM
Toni sighed
>
> This is SOOOO not working. I had to wade through dozens of messages
> to find the original base of the "thread".

Dodi retorted
>
> I don't understand. How do you see the game, Toni? I'm getting messages on
> the Yahoo listserv, and the list of defs simply comes through as a regular
> e-mail message (from the group)

I agree that the view as separate emails (i moved away from digests) is
quite usable, and much less cluttered and confusing than i feared, even
though the traffic is still heavy with all the tribulations and our comments
thereon. I find it more user friendly than the web view, even though there's
no threading in my email client. The important threads in the game are by
nature pretty near linear. And mailing list rather than web means i don't
have to reply there and then, i can mull over a word to define (or a set of
defs) and come back later to reply.

Tip for fellow Eudora users: you can give mails in your mailboxes 5 "levels
of priority", to wit
double ^
single ^
no mark
single v
double v
Incoming messages (usually) start life as "no mark". When i recognise a...

...new word message, i give it single ^
...word is up (list of defs) it gets double ^
...result (attributed list of defs) gets double v for completeness.

A few hours later when i feel like replying i don't have to wade through
anything (the symbols stand out, in the left margin). The marks also help
for aging/retiring old messages. At the moment the the traffic is heavy
enough to
age messages in batches of one round (starting with their ^ ) but later i
may use batches of several rounds. I can always leave the current round in
view, i can see its landmark single ^ or/and double ^ sitting there.

Other email programs may have similar marking options, and/or little
padlocks or pegs to keep read messages in view. Tapcis has its H and M.

--Regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Toni Savage
June 6th, 2005, 08:35 PM
']Toni sighed
>
> This is SOOOO not working. I had to wade through dozens of messages
> to find the original base of the "thread".

Dodi retorted
>
> I don't understand. How do you see the game, Toni? I'm getting messages on
> the Yahoo listserv, and the list of defs simply comes through as a regular
> e-mail message (from the group)

I agree that the view as separate emails (i moved away from digests) is
quite usable, and much less cluttered and confusing than i feared, even
though the traffic is still heavy with all the tribulations and our comments
thereon. I find it more user friendly than the web view, even though there's
no threading in my email client. The important threads in the game are by
nature pretty near linear. And mailing list rather than web means i don't
have to reply there and then, i can mull over a word to define (or a set of
defs) and come back later to reply.

Tip for fellow Eudora users: you can give mails in your mailboxes 5 "levels
of priority", to wit
double ^
single ^
no mark
single v
double v
Incoming messages (usually) start life as "no mark". When i recognise a...

...new word message, i give it single ^
...word is up (list of defs) it gets double ^
...result (attributed list of defs) gets double v for completeness.

A few hours later when i feel like replying i don't have to wade through
anything (the symbols stand out, in the left margin). The marks also help
for aging/retiring old messages. At the moment the the traffic is heavy
enough to
age messages in batches of one round (starting with their ^ ) but later i
may use batches of several rounds. I can always leave the current round in
view, i can see its landmark single ^ or/and double ^ sitting there.

Other email programs may have similar marking options, and/or little
padlocks or pegs to keep read messages in view. Tapcis has its H and M.

--Regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Nice method... but that means reading each message twice! there were 200 emails in my Yahoo inbox, and at even 30 seconds per message that's over an hour and a half! I just don't have that kind of time. (there are still 119 messages unread).

And as far as items staying in their sequence and threads... that would be great if threads were linear, but I'm used to being able to see the tree structure and if a node seems to be branching into irrelevancy, skipping just that branch, and picking up the main thread easily. That was true in both TAPCIS and in the Web view I ended up using when I lost my sysop account.

I'm hoping the message quantity level will die down in here and I can manage things better.

Guerri Stevens
June 6th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Thunderbird allows you to "label" messages. The labels are important, work, personal, to do, and later. And no label at all. But for the game, you could attach a meaning to each of them as Marijke did.

Guerri

Toni Savage
June 6th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Thunderbird allows you to "label" messages. The labels are important, work, personal, to do, and later. And no label at all. But for the game, you could attach a meaning to each of them as Marijke did.

Guerri
I can quickly put them into folders (I have one called Dix-Game and one called Dix-Chat, for example) but to sort them you have to OPEN them! And I don't have a mail reader (I'm not sure you can configure one to get a Yahoo account's email).
TS

Guerri Stevens
June 6th, 2005, 09:01 PM
I can quickly put them into folders (I have one called Dix-Game and one called Dix-Chat, for example) but to sort them you have to OPEN them! And I don't have a mail reader (I'm not sure you can configure one to get a Yahoo account's email).
TS

Toni, if you're using Yahoo's free Email, you are stuck with having to use what Yahoo provides. It's not POP3, so you can't use a 3rd-party reader (Outlook, Eudora, whatever). I don't think there are any filters that you could get it to apply to your mail as it arrives, but then I don't use my Yahoo account for "real" mail so have never looked into the options.

Probably the number of messages *will* shrink as we all get used to this. I don't know whether there is a solution to the loss of threading with the TAPCIS software though.

Guerri writing directly from the parlor

Judy G. Russell
June 6th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Toni, if you need a Google mail account (which is POP3 and can be read with any mail program like Eudora etc.), I'll be happy to send you an invitation (which is how Google works it, for some reason).

Mike
June 7th, 2005, 02:26 AM
And I have Google mail accounts for anyone who wants one, too.

Lindsey
June 7th, 2005, 05:57 PM
And I have Google mail accounts for anyone who wants one, too.
Me three--GMTA! <g>

For those of you not familiar with the features offered by Gmail, you can read about it here (http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/about.html).

--Lindsey

Lindsey
June 7th, 2005, 05:59 PM
(which is how Google works it, for some reason).
Gmail is officially still in beta testing, which is why it's "by invitation only," though at this point, I think anyone who wants an invitation can find someone to send one.

--Lindsey

Marijke van Gans
June 8th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Toni said
>
> I'm hoping the message quantity level will die down in here and I can
> manage things better.

I think it will, as the "how do you" and "can you see" and "why the $%^&
does this not work" messages slowly die down...

I have a MODEST PROPOSAL:

* threads with a round number in the title are game. Stick to stuff that
belongs in the game -- new word, NADs, crowns, word's-up, votes, results,
rolling scores, corrections. And of course 5-round totals, 25-round stats.

* threads without a round number in the title (such as this one) are chat.
Meander. Be voluble.

This would rely on

- dealers posting with a clear subject title (ideally, with round number)

- anybody branching off with general interest communication CHANGING THE
THREAD TITLE at the earliest opportunity.

This seems to me a bit more practical than to tell people to go to tffkat or
the tapcis.com web for side remarks. And those of us short of time could
just skip messages without round numbers.

--regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans
June 8th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Judy Russell said
>
> Toni, if you need a Google mail account (which is POP3 and can be read
> with any mail program like Eudora etc.), I'll be happy to send you an
> invitation (which is how Google works it, for some reason).

Interesting. How is their mail -- no ads attached?

Is this the email account that comes with a thousand million bytes of
storage space?

--regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2005, 04:50 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:

> Interesting. How is their [Google] mail -- no ads attached?
>
> Is this the email account that comes with a thousand million bytes of
> storage space?

There are no ads attached if you choose to receive your email via pop3.
If you read your mail on the website (which I do when away from my home
computer) there are small "relevant" text-only ads in the right margin.
They are so unobtrusive that I hardly ever notice them. The "relevance"
is based on automatic matching of keywords in email. For example, when
emailing my wife about a vacation to Las Vegas there was a text ad about
hotels there. No human eyes ever touch your email.

They have a very good spam filter that catches 99% of my junk mail, even
on addresses that I publish "everywhere". On a second gmail account
that is not published anywhere but a few yahoo mailing lists, I get zero
junk, so I'm confident my name isn't sold (unlike hotmail).

They have 2 GB (and growing) available of storage space -- per account,
and you can theoretically get several for yourself, claiming you never
have to delete anything. It just gets "archived" and is easily
searchable using a powerful google-like search box.

I like it well enough that I have made it my primary email account.

And it's all free. At least as long as it's in "beta". Personally I
suspect that they may one day charge for the ad-free pop3 variant, but
they haven't yet.

Dan (who has 50 invites to hand out just like everyone else)



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Chris Carson
June 8th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Marijke,

Your proposal has an added benefit for Cory users since Cory has a
definition import mode that scans the dealer's email client's inbox for
messages with the round number or the word in the title. That makes the
process quite a bit easier even that Tapcis that required saving the
definition messages to a file.

Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marijke van Gans" <marijke (AT) for (DOT) mat.bham.ac.uk>
To: <coryphaeus (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixonary] Trouble voting?


> Toni said
> >
> > I'm hoping the message quantity level will die down in here and I can
> > manage things better.
>
> I think it will, as the "how do you" and "can you see" and "why the $%^&
> does this not work" messages slowly die down...
>
> I have a MODEST PROPOSAL:
>
> * threads with a round number in the title are game. Stick to stuff that
> belongs in the game -- new word, NADs, crowns, word's-up, votes,
> results,
> rolling scores, corrections. And of course 5-round totals, 25-round
> stats.
>
> * threads without a round number in the title (such as this one) are chat.
> Meander. Be voluble.
>
> This would rely on
>
> - dealers posting with a clear subject title (ideally, with round number)
>
> - anybody branching off with general interest communication CHANGING THE
> THREAD TITLE at the earliest opportunity.
>
> This seems to me a bit more practical than to tell people to go to tffkat
> or
> the tapcis.com web for side remarks. And those of us short of time could
> just skip messages without round numbers.
>
> --regards, marijke
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Guerri Stevens
June 8th, 2005, 08:48 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
> I have a MODEST PROPOSAL:
>
> * threads with a round number in the title are game. Stick to stuff that
> belongs in the game -- new word, NADs, crowns, word's-up, votes, results,
> rolling scores, corrections. And of course 5-round totals, 25-round stats.
>
> * threads without a round number in the title (such as this one) are chat.
> Meander. Be voluble.
>

I would prefer that the traffic die down and what's posted be either the
playing of the game itself, or messages directly relevant to the game.
Of course the latter is a judgment call, but generally, people will post
responsibly.

As we get the kinks worked out, I think that traffic *will* die down.
After all, when we were on CompuServe, up to the last week or so of May,
there was very little chat outside of the game.

Your idea is a good one, but I hope it's not really necessary other than
for a very short time.

--
Guerri




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans
June 8th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Lindsey said
> Mike Wrote:
> > And I have Google mail accounts for anyone who wants one, too.
> Me three--GMTA! <g>
>
> For those of you not familiar with the features offered by Gmail, you
> can read about it 'here'
> (http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/about.html).

Read it. Want one. Pretty please?

--regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mike
June 8th, 2005, 09:20 PM
There are no ads attached if you choose to receive your email via pop3. [...] And it's all free. At least as long as it's in "beta". Personally I suspect that they may one day charge for the ad-free pop3 variant, but they haven't yet.
According to what I've read at the Gmail site in the past (it may have changed),

a) at some point in the future, text ads may be inserted into the messages, so they'll appear in mail retrieved via POP3

b) at some point in the future, text ads may be inserted into messages sent by the service

c) Google doesn't plan to charge for POP3

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote: <http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/about.html%29.>

>
> Read it. Want one. Pretty please?
>
> --regards, marijke

On its way.

Dan



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Russ Heimerson
June 8th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Daniel B. Widdis wrote:
>
>Marijke van Gans wrote: <http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/about.html%29.>
>
>>Read it. Want one. Pretty please?
>>
>>--regards, marijke
>
>On its way.
>
>Dan
>
Would you be so kind as to add me to the list also, Dan?

Russ



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2005, 09:54 PM
Russ Heimerson wrote:

> Would you be so kind as to add me to the list also, Dan?

Done. :)



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Toni Savage
June 8th, 2005, 09:57 PM
DAn, if you run out, I've got a couple more...

Toni

--- "Daniel B. Widdis" <widdis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

> Russ Heimerson wrote:
>
> > Would you be so kind as to add me to the list
> also, Dan?
>
> Done. :)
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 8th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Toni Savage wrote:

> DAn, if you run out, I've got a couple more...

I still have 46. :)





Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Judy G. Russell
June 8th, 2005, 10:30 PM
The minute they insert ads, I'm gone. I'd pay for ad-free, but I won't stick around with ads, period.

Lindsey
June 8th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Read it. Want one. Pretty please?
I see Dan already sent you one. I tell ya, you gotta be fast around here!

--Lindsey

Marijke van Gans
June 8th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Dan,

> On its way.

Thanks! I'm now gmarijke (at-sign) gmail (full stop) com -- marijke was
taken by some smartass already <g>.

Just picked up the welcome msg via pop3 in thunderbird... i'm going to think
long and hard about separating personal/work, and proper mail/lists, i may
end up editing my account info here (again).

Did somebody say T'bird shows conversations like these here threaded???

--regards, gmarijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 9th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Marijke van Gans wrote:

>
> Did somebody say T'bird shows conversations like these here threaded???
>
It can, but it automatically 'collapses' threads which must be expanded
with the * key or a click on the + sign. Can't seem to find a "sticky"
setting, although the program is so configurable that no doubt some geek
somewhere has figured out how to do so.

Dan



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mike
June 9th, 2005, 02:34 AM
I'll probably keep using it for mailing lists and other stuff that already has some degree of advertising. I'll continue to use my personal domain for exchanging mail with family and friends.

Guerri Stevens
June 9th, 2005, 05:42 AM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
>
> Did somebody say T'bird shows conversations like these here threaded???
>
>

Yes, T-bird will thread messages. The setting is under View > Sort By. I
have not totally figured out what it does as far as collapse/expand, but
under View > Threads are shortcuts for those. I *think* that it
collapses threads in the Inbox, but it appears to leave them expanded in
my Dixonary folder.

T-bird also has filters that can be applied. For example, I receive my
Dixonary messages via Email from the Coryphaeus group. Because they have
[Dixonary] as the first word of the subject, I can tell T-bird to put
them into my Dixonary folder as it reads them. This allows me to
segregate them from messages from family and friends in case time is
short and I think the family/friends messages are of higher priority
(heresy, I know).

--
Guerri




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans
June 10th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Dan, Guerri et al. confirmed that

> T-bird will thread messages.

I've added my gmail account to my Yahoo! identity now. I'm holding off
switching delivery of this list until after this round is finished --- that
way i'll have whole rounds in my various mailboxes. While i'm reading this
account in Eudora i'm reading gmail in T-bird, will report how good or
otherwise its threading is.

Come to think of it, i expect gmail as seen from the web will also introduce
its own kind of threading. I won't read my mail that way full time, but
it'll be interesting to have a look and compare.

The gmail concept of leaving your mail on their site and never deleting or
archiving things by hand is intriguing... Obviously, for the moment (while i
don't have always-on broadband) i will just use gmail the old-fashioned way
myself, download with pop3 and read offline. But i wonder how many people
will trust Google to be around (forever?) enough to be happy leaving all
their archived mail online without a local copy.

--gday, gmarijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans
June 10th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Lindsey said
> Marijke van Gans Wrote:
> > Read it. Want one. Pretty please?
> I see Dan already sent you one. I tell ya, you gotta be fast around
> here!

LOL!

I wonder if i now also get 50 to give away, or does it not work like a tree?

--regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Lindsey
June 10th, 2005, 06:38 PM
I wonder if i now also get 50 to give away, or does it not work like a tree?
You'll probably eventually have some to give away; you may not have any now. There's a link that will appear on your Gmail web page. After I had had the box for a while, I noticed that I had 10 invitations available to send out, and then some time after that, it was telling me I had 50. I think it's Google's way of doing a slow rollout.

--Lindsey

Guerri Stevens
June 10th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
> The gmail concept of leaving your mail on their site and never deleting or
> archiving things by hand is intriguing... Obviously, for the moment (while i

I wondered about the gmail concept of leaving the mail on their site
myself. And I wondered whether you COULD choose to delete it if you
preferred to do so. I have read various comments here and there about
possible privacy issues with having all your messages in their
possession. Of course, who knows what is really happening with other
Email providers!

--
Guerri




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Lindsey
June 10th, 2005, 09:45 PM
I wondered about the gmail concept of leaving the mail on their site myself. And I wondered whether you COULD choose to delete it if you preferred to do so.
Yes, certainly, you can delete anything you want to.

I think Google does target ads based on the content of your e-mail messages, but so far as I know, that's the only potential privacy issue. (And it's not a human that's parsing your messages, only a machine.)

--Lindsey

Daniel B. Widdis
June 11th, 2005, 12:09 AM
On 6/10/05, Marijke van Gans wrote:
> Come to think of it, i expect gmail as seen from the web will also
> introduce
> its own kind of threading. I won't read my mail that way full time, but
> it'll be interesting to have a look and compare.

It doesn't really thread, but it does organize messages (including
those you send) in "Conversations". Initially ones you've already
read (or collected via pop3) are collapsed, while "new" messages are
expanded.

I actually like it -- it was one of the main reasons I chose it as my
primary account. I can use my preferred client (T-bird) at home, but
then still have a very nice web interface at work, on the road with my
PDA, or in my current situation, out to sea! And it's completely
transparent to people reading my mail where I am when I send it.

> But i wonder how many people
> will trust Google to be around (forever?) enough to be happy leaving all
> their archived mail online without a local copy.

I don't -- I still file "important" messages on my home machine.
However, I no longer worry about deleting anything that I may or may
not need at some point distant in the future. It's easily searchable
(actually, when I want to find an old message I use the online
interface rather than my home one -- and it's searchable from home,
work, PDA, etc.)

I also do use the search interface periodically to clean out things
that I have no interest in archiving, such as my daily comics
subscription, or messages that I've sent with PGP encryption that are
unreadable/unsearchable online (when I don't trust even Google!)

Dan



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marijke van Gans
June 11th, 2005, 06:51 AM
Daniel B. Widdis wrote:

> my preferred client (T-bird)

I'm now using it in anger for the first time. I can't yet find all the
settings i want.

I usually kill fancy pictorial toolbars, because (a) i've learned to
read so am capable of using the menu, (b) the menu has many more options
than are copied in the toolbar, (c) it frees up screen real estate. In
T-bird i haven't yet managed to hide the toolbar. Also, the tacky
plasticky pseudo-see-through icons irk me, it looks like their designer
assumes everybody uses Redmond's XP and tried to imitate their "style"
(but i expect a hunt through some themes online may fix that).

Worse is that messages display as web pages. I haven't yet seen an
honest quote set off with real tangible ">" characters, it's all vaguely
pastel shaded blocks. All i want to see is the actual text, raw, warts
and all. There doesn't seem to be a box to uncheck to switch off all
this HTML nonsense.

I started off with a lot of sympathy for T-bird for it being open source
and all that, but if i can't make it behave like a proper email client
i'll go back to Eudora 1.5.4.

PS i cleaned out my compuserve.com mailbox with T-bird earlier. It
flagged very few spams as "junk", but did flag a message from a friend
thus! Still trying to find a way of switching that mechanism off too.

--regards, marijke




Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coryphaeus/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
coryphaeus-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 11th, 2005, 01:20 PM
On 6/11/05, Marijke van Gans wrote:
>
> In T-bird i haven't yet managed to hide the toolbar.

T-bird is so customizable that I'm certain this is possible, whether a
menu choice (View... Toolbars... Customize) or a manual editing of a
file. I am at sea and don't have access to T-bird to experiment for 9
more days, but if you haven't solved it by then I'll look.

> All i want to see is the actual text, raw, warts
> and all. There doesn't seem to be a box to uncheck to switch off all
> this HTML nonsense.

I think there's a menu choice to "view HTML" which shows the raw text
of a message. I think to make this "sticky" you might have to edit
your config file.

> PS i cleaned out my compuserve.com mailbox with T-bird earlier. It
> flagged very few spams as "junk", but did flag a message from a friend
> thus! Still trying to find a way of switching that mechanism off too.

The junk filter, like most modern ones, uses Bayesian filtering. It
needs a few dozen emails to "train" itself, but after that it works
well. I believe there's a setting to tell it where to put junk --
including right in your inbox.

Dan

Guerri Stevens
June 11th, 2005, 07:08 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
> I usually kill fancy pictorial toolbars, because (a) i've learned to
> read so am capable of using the menu, (b) the menu has many more options
> than are copied in the toolbar, (c) it frees up screen real estate. In
>
To hide the toolbar, View>Toolbars then click the ones you don't want to
see.

Messages displaying as web pages: I don't understand this one.

Quotes: I am seeing > in front of the quotes. But I am looking at
messages from the group here at the moment. And I think you and some
others are working in text.

(Later): disregard the comment about the quotes. I was looking at a
quote included in my message to you. It had the > characters. Messages I
am reading seem to have the quotes enclosed between colored vertical lines.

One thing I don't like is the inability to edit a message you've
composed. You can "edit as new" but that creates a new message, and you
have to delete the original.

Probably we should somehow forward our complaints to the developers of
Thunderbird but I am too lazy to research this right now.

--
Guerri

Marijke van Gans
June 13th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Dan, Guerri and whoever else replied in the mean time

>> In T-bird i haven't yet managed to hide the toolbar.
> T-bird is so customizable that I'm certain this is possible

It is, in the most obvious place (View menu, Toolbars submenu), as i
found 5 minutes after posting my gripe. A weird fever (*) addled my
perception, and i hope i didn't sound as grumpy as i felt that night.

(*) Odd that. Feeling grotty Thu, slight muscle ache, back to bed, slept
round the clock, very high fever Fri, terrible muscle/bone ache, even
headache (very unusual for me), convinced it was some killer flu.

But now it has almost cleared up and i never got any sneezing, no runny
nose, no cough, no sore throat. Weirdest "flu" i ever had!

Started after i applied a new special vet's spot-on squeeze anti-flea
gunge to the cat. I wonder! Will look out for same symptoms next month
when the cat is due his next dose. Hazard sheets on selamectin (Pfizer
"Stronghold") anybody?

> I think there's a menu choice to "view HTML" which shows the raw text
> of a message. I think to make this "sticky" you might have to edit
> your config file.

There is. But what i saw isn't HTML, it turns out. It's a weird way
T-bird has of showing quotes. Double blue bars either side of a line.
Originally it was even more gaudy (pastel background) but after editing
my c:\windows\applic~1\thunderb\profiles\default.gap\ chrome\usercont.css
only the vertical bars remain.

Plays havoc with CIS style quotes. When somebody says

> line of text
line if text
line of text <

T-bird makes it

|| line of text || line flagged as quote, eats the >
line if text two lines displayed
line of text < as ordinary text, with the <

> The junk filter, like most modern ones, uses Bayesian filtering. It
> needs a few dozen emails to "train" itself, but after that it works
> well.

Okay. Am training it now. Used to just delete spam, now i'm marking it
as junk first. Feel like a mother cat teaching kitten to hunt <g>.

--
Regards, marijke [52N 2W]
http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/marijke/

Marijke van Gans
June 13th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Guerri Stevens wrote:

> Probably we should somehow forward our complaints to the developers of
> Thunderbird but I am too lazy to research this right now.

I did this last year (criticising Firefox's treatment of nntp: and news:
URLs). The mozilla.org site has clear links to message boards, including
two for "suggestions" for Firefox and Thunderbird developers. There are
requests to post these kinds of bafflements there first, rather than
filing an official bug report.

But like you, i'm too busy/lazy/disorganised right now for that stuff.

--
Regards, marijke [52N 2W]
http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/marijke/

Guerri Stevens
June 13th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
>
> Started after i applied a new special vet's spot-on squeeze anti-flea
> gunge to the cat. I wonder! Will look out for same symptoms next month
> when the cat is due his next dose. Hazard sheets on selamectin (Pfizer
> "Stronghold") anybody?

I suggest using rubber gloves next time you apply the stuff if you think
you got some on your skin, and that's what caused your problems. With
the gloves, even if the problem occurs again, you will have ruled out
having had the stuff touch your skin. I checked the stuff we use
(Frontline) but it has different ingredients.

> There is. But what i saw isn't HTML, it turns out. It's a weird way
> T-bird has of showing quotes. Double blue bars either side of a line.

This whole thing is driving me nuts. I use T-bird and I am not seeing
double blue vertical bars, I am seeing single blue bars. And it doesn't
happen with all messages. For instance, in your message, to which I'm
replying, I see the greater than signs (>). Maybe because they are indented?

And then there was the underlined text, which I've been discussing in a
different thread.

I wonder if it makes a difference where the message is posted. For
instance, I am composing my messages using T-bird, as Email to the
Coryphaeus group. A message posted first in tapcis.com then copied to
Coryphaeus and then delivered by Email might look different.

--
Guerri

Guerri Stevens
June 14th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
> I did this last year (criticising Firefox's treatment of nntp: and news:

I may get unlazy soon. I tried importing into my T-bird address book
this morning. I've posted a message about that on the CompuServe Mozilla
forum. Perhaps there is a way to do what I want and I just didn't see
it. Otherwise, the developers may hear from me.

--
Guerri

Mike
June 14th, 2005, 03:24 PM
This whole thing is driving me nuts. I use T-bird and I am not seeing
double blue vertical bars, I am seeing single blue bars. And it doesn't
happen with all messages. For instance, in your message, to which I'm
replying, I see the greater than signs (>). Maybe because they are indented?

Indeed, the way quoted text is shown in T-bird depends heavily on how the message was sent.

Newer versions of Eudora, along with Outlook Express, Mozilla/Netscape mail, and T-bird, operate under "X-flowed," where the text of a message is displayed independently of the quotation marking. If the window is wider, then more text is shown per line. While the raw source of the message may have greater-than signs (">") to denote the quoted parts, the mail client can mark the quoted part however it likes. Most of the newer clients are using a vertical bar along one or both margins, but some can be configured to display greater-than symbols or other characters.

Whether a single or double bar is presented depends on the mail program's interpretation of the text and whether its a single level or double level of quoting (or even more levels).

I wonder if it makes a difference where the message is posted. For instance, I am composing my messages using T-bird, as Email to the Coryphaeus group. A message posted first in tapcis.com then copied to Coryphaeus and then delivered by Email might look different.

Sure. As each message passes through different systems, it may be reformatted and lines may be wrapped or broken, independently of the quoting. That can easily confuse a mail program, particularly if it has been told (via the message's headers) that the message doesn't have individual line breaks, because its format is flowed.

Guerri Stevens
June 14th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Mike wrote:

> Indeed, the way quoted text is shown in T-bird depends heavily on how
> the message was sent.
> ...
> Sure. As each message passes through different systems, it may be
> reformatted and lines may be wrapped or broken, independently of the
> quoting.

I guess what this means is we should stop worrying about it and/or
trying to get our settings changed so that messages will look the way we
want.

--
Guerri

Guerri Stevens
June 14th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Mike wrote:
> Indeed, the way quoted text is shown in T-bird depends heavily on how
> the message was sent.

(later): I tried an experiment - inserting a single blank ahead of the
greater than signs for a quote. Apparently that is enough to fool
whatever process puts in the vertical bars, because in my earlier reply
to you, the quoted material has the greater than signs (>) and no blue
bars. It may not work for everyone under all conditions, of course. And
I can live with the bars.

--
Guerri

Marijke van Gans
June 14th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Guerri Stevens said on 05-06-14 00:57 in this group:
> Marijke van Gans wrote:
>>Started after i applied a new special vet's spot-on squeeze anti-flea
>>gunge to the cat. I wonder! Will look out for same symptoms next month
>>when the cat is due his next dose. Hazard sheets on selamectin (Pfizer
>>"Stronghold") anybody?
>
>
> I suggest using rubber gloves next time you apply the stuff if you think
> you got some on your skin, and that's what caused your problems. With
> the gloves, even if the problem occurs again, you will have ruled out
> having had the stuff touch your skin. I checked the stuff we use
> (Frontline) but it has different ingredients.

I've had Frontline before as well, no problems with that.

The gloves idea is not practical, because the cat crawls all over me
when i'm asleep anyway. And the stuff is designed to go into his blood,
get eaten by the fleas, end up in the faeces of the fleas, which is
eaten by their larvae (i shouldn't criticise feeding habits of other
cultures i guess :) and then the stuff prevents them hatching or
pupating or whatever it is they do. Generally it's supposed to
eventually pervade the parts of the house the cat often visits, thereby
preventing furure generations of fleas there where it matters most.

I'd need a biohazard suit and gas mask to avoid it <g>. It relies on
being only hazardous to the fleas, not to mammals like me and the cat,
or at least in theory...

Anyway -- i'd rather use it exactly the same as last time. Then if i
don't get the fever again i can lay that idea to rest. If i do things
differently and don't get it, i'll be left with residual doubt.

I'm ruling out 'flu because it went away much too quick, but i suppose
that would also rule out environmental poisoning.

I want to go and get a general medical checkup, see if they can find
something tangible.

--
Regards, marijke [52N 2W]
http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/marijke/

Marijke van Gans
June 14th, 2005, 08:15 PM
Guerri Stevens said on 05-06-14 00:57 in this group:

> Marijke van Gans wrote:
>
>>There is. But what i saw isn't HTML, it turns out. It's a weird way
>>T-bird has of showing quotes. Double blue bars either side of a line.
>
>
> This whole thing is driving me nuts. I use T-bird and I am not seeing
> double blue vertical bars, I am seeing single blue bars.

My double bars are two lines very closely separated, maybe you call them
single <g>.

> And it doesn't
> happen with all messages. For instance, in your message, to which I'm
> replying, I see the greater than signs (>). Maybe because they are indented?

In some messages i wrote with Tbird, i left the quotes it gave me well
alone. They were BLUE > signs and text in the reply window, and they all
got posted as bars when i get the message back from the list.

In other messages i wrote with Tbird, i wrote > signs myself, they were
BLACK. Or i edited the blue ones too much, cutting and pasting them
until they ended up black too. Those messages all posted with plain
literal > signs.

So that much i understand. What i don't understand is *how* it happens,
what actually gets sent, how an ASCII mailing list can preserve the
difference between "blue" and "black" quoted text, but i understand
*when* it happens, how to force the bars to happen or not to happen in
messages i write.

What i also don't understand is why i see bars in some people's messages
that were written in other email programs than Tbird. There seems to be
some secret code "display this as a quote" shared between email apps.

I have warmed considerably to Tbird's blue quotes (even if they end up
as bars) since i discovered the Edit, Rewrap menu item. It's marvelous
to re-flow a ">" quoted paragraph (when the lines get too long) without
the ">"s ending up all over the place.

> And then there was the underlined text, which I've been discussing in a
> different thread.

I saw the same effect. One whole def underlined rather than just the
three pieces that were marked with underscores. But then i use Tbird.

> I wonder if it makes a difference where the message is posted.

This one is composed in Tbird as a reply, leaving blue quotes intact,
and posted to the list via gmail.

--
Regards, marijke [52N 2W]
http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/marijke/

Daniel B. Widdis
June 14th, 2005, 11:42 PM
On 6/14/05, Marijke van Gans wrote:
> I have warmed considerably to Tbird's blue quotes (even if they end up
> as bars) since i discovered the Edit, Rewrap menu item. It's marvelous
> to re-flow a ">" quoted paragraph (when the lines get too long) without
> the ">"s ending up all over the place.

Wow. I haven't yet discovered that rewrapping thing, but it does sound
useful! I've been manually rewrapping things when I needed to!

There is an extension for Tbird that will collapse quotes (you can
expand them by clicking on the little + sign). I really like that --
it shortens the length of spam, especially when people quote entire
messages back. :)

Dan (who's looking for interesting ways to automatically incorporate
signatures into emails sent to this list so I don't have to rely on my
faulty memory)

Judy G. Russell
June 15th, 2005, 08:16 AM
Dan (who's looking for interesting ways to automatically incorporate
signatures into emails sent to this list so I don't have to rely on my
faulty memory)
Set up a pseudo-mail account just for list emails, filter incoming emails into that account and set up a signature for the outgoing emails on that account.

Guerri Stevens
June 15th, 2005, 08:05 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:

> My double bars are two lines very closely separated, maybe you call
them
> single <g>.

The vertical blue bars do not look in any way like two very close bars,
at least not to me. I notice in your message that the inner quote (quote
within a quote) has red bars inside the blue bars.

I have edited the quote from you above by putting a space in front of
each of the greater than signs. I believe that will show up, when you
read my message, as greater than signs, not blue bars. The next text
here will be a black fake quote with the greater than sign at the very
left edge to test whether it's the black or the position that determines
whether it gets turned into a blue bar.

> Fake quote written in black, with T-bird, at left edge.

>
> What i also don't understand is why i see bars in some people's messages
> that were written in other email programs than Tbird. There seems to be
> some secret code "display this as a quote" shared between email apps.
>

I have adjusted to the blue bars and in fact kind of like them. Thanks
for the hint about the rewrapping. I have been afraid to touch that.

Now two questions remain in my mind: one is why some quoted material
ends up with incorrect blue bars, i.e. blue bars for part, but not all.
And the other is what Judy Madnick does that makes her quoted material
wrap strangely. I *think* the problem there is the indenting, which
makes the lines to long to fit, at least as I read them. I tend to read
in what I call the "preview" pane. I have T-bird set to show the list of
folders along the left, the list of messages on the top part of the
right side, and the text of the selected message in the bottom part of
the right side (what I call the "preview" pane").

--
Guerri

Guerri Stevens
June 15th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Daniel B. Widdis wrote:
>
> There is an extension for Tbird that will collapse quotes (you can
> expand them by clicking on the little + sign). I really like that --
> it shortens the length of spam, especially when people quote entire
> messages back. :)
>

By "extension" do you mean something extra that has to be downloaded? I
don't see any plus sign next to quoted material, which is why I ask.
There is a plus or minus sign next to the subject in the preview pane
and I must have inadvertently clicked on it today, then spent a couple
of minutes trying to figure out whether the message headers really
looked different at some point or whether it was my imagination.

--
Guerri

Daniel B. Widdis
June 15th, 2005, 10:48 PM
On 6/15/05, Guerri Stevens <guerri (AT) tapcis (DOT) com> wrote:
> By "extension" do you mean something extra that has to be downloaded?

Yes. Both Firefox and Thunderbird have many third-party "extensions"
(and also themes) available to be downloaded. TBird's extensions are
here:

https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/?application=thunderbird

I have the quotecollapse one installed, as well as QuoteColors
(colorful nested quotes) and QuickQuote (you select text, then click
reply, and it already quotes whatever you have selected). In
addition, I have installed the Enigmail extension along with gpg to
enable PGP encryption and signed messages. Unfortunately I don't know
many other people to whom I can send mail.

There's also a "Leet Key" extension that will translate selected text
into l33+5p33k. If I'd have been home for the HAKSPEK round I might
have used that to translate my definition. But alas, I doubt I will
ever download it now. :)

--
Dan Widdis
on the road (or at sea) using Gmail on the web

Daniel B. Widdis
June 16th, 2005, 01:49 AM
On 6/15/05, Judy G. Russell <jgr (AT) jgrussell (DOT) com> wrote:
> Set up a pseudo-mail account just for list emails

Unfortunately, I use the web access often enough that I want to stick
to one account. I did set up a generic Gmail signature that hopefully
will make everyone happy.

When I get home I'll download the custom signature extension for
Thunderbird and mess around with it.
--
Dan Widdis
on the road (or at sea) using Gmail on the web

Marijke van Gans
June 16th, 2005, 08:44 AM
Guerri Stevens said on 05-06-16 01:05 GMT:

> The vertical blue bars do not look in any way like two very close bars,
> at least not to me.

Must be font a issue (i use Courier New) or they changed it (i'm still
on 0.7.3 would you believe, can't be bothered to upgrade and maybe have
to redo a whole bunch of settings).

> I notice in your message that the inner quote (quote
> within a quote) has red bars inside the blue bars.

Oh yes, a whole rainbow if you go all newsgroupy and quote quoted quotes
of quoted quotes...

> I have edited the quote from you above by putting a space in front of
> each of the greater than signs. I believe that will show up, when you
> read my message, as greater than signs, not blue bars.

Yes. Black, plain > symbol.

> The next text
> here will be a black fake quote with the greater than sign at the very
> left edge to test whether it's the black or the position that determines
> whether it gets turned into a blue bar.

Black > symbol *but* not at the left edge anymore! One space before it.

> I have adjusted to the blue bars and in fact kind of like them. Thanks
> for the hint about the rewrapping. I have been afraid to touch that.

(:

> Now two questions remain in my mind: one is why some quoted material
> ends up with incorrect blue bars, i.e. blue bars for part, but not all.

CompuServe style quoting, which many here still use, is

>> quoted text
quoted text
quoted text <<

A diehard 'net program like Tbird thinks only the first line is a quote.

> And the other is what Judy Madnick does that makes her quoted material
> wrap strangely. I *think* the problem there is the indenting, which
> makes the lines to long to fit, at least as I read them.

Don't see anything wrapping weird. I do note she uses << as a start of
quote rather than end of quote.

Yet another reason why i don't like it when programs like Tbird get too
anal retentive about what the "right" kind of sig and "standard" smiley
and "official" way of quoting is... people have different styles,
innovation happens, and a program really shouldn't presume that much.

> I tend to read
> in what I call the "preview" pane. I have T-bird set to show the list of
> folders along the left, the list of messages on the top part of the
> right side, and the text of the selected message in the bottom part of
> the right side (what I call the "preview" pane").

That's how i read every message. Why do you call it *pre*view, is there
another view???

I have my cursor in that pane (clicked) just so that downarrow and PgDn
will work within the msg, then i move to next unread msg with N (or next
any with F). Never have to leave that pane.

--
Regards, marijke [52N 2W]
http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/marijke/

Guerri Stevens
June 16th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Marijke van Gans wrote:
> Must be font a issue (i use Courier New) or they changed it (i'm still
> on 0.7.3 would you believe, can't be bothered to upgrade and maybe have
> to redo a whole bunch of settings).

I am using Courier also. Could be the difference in version, I suppose.
As far as I'm concerned, software that is simple is better. It doesn't
have to help me by translating ASCII representations of smilies into
graphics with color. It doesn't have to translate stuff beginning with
greater than signs into blue bars, however many of them there are. It
doesn't have to show me bold and italics, etc. if they weren't there
explicitly (HTML) in the first place. And I don't like anything that
tries to modify my writing while I'm doing it!

>> The next text
>>here will be a black fake quote with the greater than sign at the very
>>left edge to test whether it's the black or the position that determines
>>whether it gets turned into a blue bar.
>
>
> Black > symbol *but* not at the left edge anymore! One space before it.
>
Yes, I have noticed that T-bird (or somebody) inserts a space in front
of the greater than sign. If I type a space then a greater than sign, it
shows up later as two spaces and a greater than sign. As my father would
say, "give me strength".

>
> (:
>

Your lefthanded smiley (left parenthesis followed by colon in case the
quote above gets "processed") did not get translated. I wonder what
happens to a lefthanded smile and wink: (;

> That's how i read every message. Why do you call it *pre*view, is there
> another view???

I don't know where I got the term "preview pane". Probably from MS
Outlook. And yes, there is another view; you can double click on the
message and open a window for reading it.

I vaguely remember that, probably in Outlook, if you viewed the message
in the "preview pane" it didn't get marked as "read".

I wish I had more time to experiment with all the features of everything
I've got now. I got my first piece of spam today on my Earthlink account
today, for instance. I have given that Email address to no one and I
don't recall ever sending out Email from it, but maybe I did and don't
remember. I had to spend a little time tonight finding out how to
forward the thing to the Earthlink spam folks and checking my spam
settings there. Now I am wondering if I should go back and set the spam
settings to the highest level, which requires that any mail from someone
not in my Earthlink address book (which should be empty) be held until
the sender fills out a form and I approve it. We should not have to
waste time like this! Getting off soapbox now.

--
Guerri