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Judy G. Russell
March 21st, 2006, 06:47 PM
SEATTLE (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. said on Tuesday it plans to delay the consumer launch of its much-anticipated Windows Vista operating system to January 2007 from its earlier target of the second half of 2006, sending its shares down nearly 3 percent.
Read the full story here (http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/21/news/companies/microsoft.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes) or here (http://news.com.com/Vista+debut+hits+a+delay/2100-1016_3-6052270.html?tag=cd.lede).

rlohmann
March 21st, 2006, 07:52 PM
Imagine my surprise.

Considering the already hysterical hype about Vista, it's difficult to decide whether this is simply additional hype or whether somebody has finally perceived in horror that it simply isn't ready to go out the door.

I'll probably order it, but only after SP1 comes out. :rolleyes:

<sneering wearily>

fhaber
March 21st, 2006, 09:12 PM
They need more time to decide what additional features to remove?

The DRM isn't working yet?

They're making a deal with iTunes? Outsourcing more?

Why do I smell the corpse of general-purpose computing here? I'm stocking up on copies of Win 2000.

ndebord
March 21st, 2006, 09:15 PM
Imagine my surprise.

Considering the already hysterical hype about Vista, it's difficult to decide whether this is simply additional hype or whether somebody has finally perceived in horror that it simply isn't ready to go out the door.

I'll probably order it, but only after SP1 comes out. :rolleyes:

<sneering wearily>

Ralph,

Order it if you wish, but be prepared to buy new hardware to run it. As I read the blurbs, new firmware is required to run this thing, not an unsurprising development as Intel and MS have worked hand and hand to force mutual upgrading over the years imo.

Judy G. Russell
March 21st, 2006, 11:30 PM
I'll probably order it, but only after SP1 comes out. :rolleyes: I' ain't gonna order this one. I'll either get it installed on a box where I can call for service, or forget it.

Judy G. Russell
March 21st, 2006, 11:31 PM
Why do I smell the corpse of general-purpose computing here? I'm stocking up on copies of Win 2000.Not a bad idea, frankly. My own guess is they haven't figured out how to milk the market yet.

RayB (France)
March 22nd, 2006, 03:26 AM
Not a bad idea, frankly. My own guess is they haven't figured out how to milk the market yet.

2007, I read this morning.

fhaber
March 22nd, 2006, 01:36 PM
And that's the key. Sentient beings may b*tch and moan, but these new machines will be designed as media players and wallet extractors. 90% of new Windows licenses are OEM installs. Two-thirds of the performance-oriented remaining 10% are gamers. We, the buffs, the early adopters, we are just roadkill along the highway to critical mass, and our IEDs are just whiz-bangs.

Those who want a little bread with their circuses will be driven to Linux.

Judy G. Russell
March 22nd, 2006, 03:25 PM
Yep, it was due out originally this year; now it's been put off to next.

Judy G. Russell
March 22nd, 2006, 03:25 PM
media players and wallet extractorsROFL! A good way of describing the new machines!

Mike Landi
March 22nd, 2006, 05:04 PM
I think that MSFT and the hardware companies are working together to delay Vista and new hardware advances until next year in order to build up demand for new hardware, and that new hardware will come with Vista.

Right now, there is not a large demand for new computers. Let the computers out there now age a little more and then promote the "great new, faster, better" machines that will come out in 2007.

Judy G. Russell
March 22nd, 2006, 05:11 PM
Right now, there is not a large demand for new computers. Let the computers out there now age a little more and then promote the "great new, faster, better" machines that will come out in 2007.Interesting, and I suspect you're right. In the beginning of my computer experience, I couldn't wait for the newest, biggest, fastest computer to come out. Traded my XT for a 286 as soon as I could, the 286 for a 386, the 386 for a 486, the 486 for a Pentium. Now... yawn... no reason to upgrade, and I don't suspect Vista will change my mind about that.

ktinkel
March 22nd, 2006, 09:05 PM
We, the buffs, the early adopters, we are just roadkill along the highway to critical mass, and our IEDs are just whiz-bangs. Ain’t that the truth! I was excited when DTP began — it was easier (for me, anyway) to set type than to spec it, and lots cheaper. And I could bill for it. After years of being in thrall to typesetters — their schedules and costs — I felt in control.

But the computer industry took the cream of that and moved on, leaving the industry in shambles. We still cannot set type as well as the old CPM systems could, and Adobe et al have long since gone on to greener pastures.

Except for true number-crunching, I think, everything computerization touches is the less for it. And every up-tick in technology moves things further from the needs of those of us who depend on it for workaday things. (I certainly never wanted to be required to be a photo retoucher!)

Never mind. [ Off ] ;)

Mike Landi
March 22nd, 2006, 09:32 PM
Now... yawn... no reason to upgrade, and I don't suspect Vista will change my mind about that.

Microsoft, and their stock holders, would tremble in fear of that comment.

Microsoft would prefer to support only one version of each of its products. They'd kill off everything below XP if they could.

Now, wiithout a complelling reason to purchase, few people will upgrade their computers, let alone their OS, without some push.

The computer market it saturated. The market is now a replacement one. Whos going to be in a hurry to replace that computer that they just finished paying off (using the very nice 12-24 month payment plans that all of the manufacturers offered?)

Microsoft as painted itself into a box. Security is not going to sell Vista. Security is handled by third parties (Microsoft long ago ruined their reputation for being trustworthy.) There has to be a new "gee-whiz" feture to sell new computers and those computers will have to come with Vista in order to make Vista a success.

davidh
March 22nd, 2006, 10:19 PM
Maybe there will be enough system engineers and adminsthat want to get MS certified on VIsta who will be able to sell their management on upgrading to Vista to keep up the momentum?

David H.

Judy G. Russell
March 22nd, 2006, 11:07 PM
There has to be a new "gee-whiz" feture to sell new computers and those computers will have to come with Vista in order to make Vista a success.I hear you... and I don't see those gee-whiz features coming at all.

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 09:15 AM
Maybe, but that will not be enough to keep Microsoft's revenue stream growing.

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 09:26 AM
Computers have moved into the comodity category. A new OS or a faster processor is not going to make people part with over $1,000. Not with plasma TVs approaching that price and HD-DVRs out there.

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 01:26 PM
Not with plasma TVs approaching that priceApproaching? APPROACHING? Have you been out looking at those things recently? The dirt cheap ones are pushing $2000 and the really good ones are pushing $5000. The price is going to have to PLUMMET before one of those comes to live at my house!

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 01:58 PM
Approaching? APPROACHING? Have you been out looking at those things recently? The dirt cheap ones are pushing $2000 and the really good ones are pushing $5000. The price is going to have to PLUMMET before one of those comes to live at my house!

How about $1400 for a 37" plasma (Panasonic)? http://www.plasmadepot.com/panasonic_plasma_tv/th37pwd8uk.php

Here's a Zenith for $999
http://www.consumerdepot.com/products.asp?id=P42W34D

and a Sony for about $1,200
http://www.infinitiphoto.com/viewitem.php?IndexID=7280&RefTag=froogle


Now, I would not buy any of these since they are either low rated or not true HDTV, but the prices are getting there. Watch this Christmas, I'll bet for around $1500 you'll get a decent 37" or so, HDTV from a top maker. That will set off some buying!


Tell me you would not like to watch Tiki Barber (or Derek Jeter) on a 50" plasma? <g>

Jeff
March 23rd, 2006, 02:30 PM
Do not buy any form of HDTV until 1) all of your channels are HD or 2) you tell the shop to change from the running HD channel demo to a regular non-HD channel. You will think you need glasses.

- Jeff

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 02:42 PM
change from the running HD channel demo to a regular non-HD channel. You will think you need glasses.

One of my local haunts just put up three Hitachi 42" plasma HDTVs. They usually run ESPN-HD when I'm in for lunch.

When ESPN is showing a clip that was recorded in HD format or is showing the live shot of the anchor desk, the picture is stunning. Nearly 3D and fantastic resolution.

When a regular quality commercial is on, you'd think that the TV just malfunctione;, the picture is that bad.

Jeff
March 23rd, 2006, 03:01 PM
One of my local haunts just put up three Hitachi 42" plasma HDTVs. They usually run ESPN-HD when I'm in for lunch.

When ESPN is showing a clip that was recorded in HD format or is showing the live shot of the anchor desk, the picture is stunning. Nearly 3D and fantastic resolution.

When a regular quality commercial is on, you'd think that the TV just malfunctione;, the picture is that bad.

Yup. I was saved by accidentally asking the shop to put up one of my favorite (non-HD) channels. End of HDTV for me, for now.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 03:07 PM
Tell me you would not like to watch Tiki Barber (or Derek Jeter) on a 50" plasma? <g>Ooooh... Derek in high def... oooooooohhhh...

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 03:08 PM
Yeah, I am definitely not going to be an early adopter on this stuff.

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 03:10 PM
When a regular quality commercial is on, you'd think that the TV just malfunctione;, the picture is that bad.There's a radio ad running in this area about a guy who gets a new HDTV and sits down to check out what's on. Answer: a bird watching channel. He turns to the Big Game... and whimpers... no high def there!

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 03:11 PM
Yup. I was saved by accidentally asking the shop to put up one of my favorite (non-HD) channels. End of HDTV for me, for now.

Seeing the potential of this technology is fantastic. In a practical sense, it is a waste (except for sports).

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 03:12 PM
Ooooh... Derek in high def... oooooooohhhh...

...uh....

Maybe that should wait until you are home. <gd&r>

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 03:13 PM
He turns to the Big Game... and whimpers... no high def there!

That would make me feel (even more) like a fool.

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 05:44 PM
...uh.... Maybe that should wait until you are home. <gd&r>Okay, okay... but he is cute...

Judy G. Russell
March 23rd, 2006, 05:46 PM
No reason to... I think a lot of people misunderstand the whole idea, and think that it's just the set (on their end) that controls what's in high def and what isn't. When they realize that it's what's broadcast in high def that counts too, they're surprised.

rlohmann
March 23rd, 2006, 06:43 PM
Order it if you wish, but be prepared to buy new hardware to run it. As I read the blurbs, new firmware is required to run this thing, not an unsurprising development as Intel and MS have worked hand and hand to force mutual upgrading over the years imo.I've noticed that. The ZD website has already implied strongly that everybody will need new--I assume SATA--hard drives. Apparently there's a 2 GB rock-bottom minimum for memory, too.

By coincidence, this response is being written on a SuSE 9.3 partition running Firefox 1.0.7 for Linux.

<sneering complacently>

rlohmann
March 23rd, 2006, 06:53 PM
I think that MSFT and the hardware companies are working together to delay Vista and new hardware advances until next year in order to build up demand for new hardware, and that new hardware will come with Vista.I dunno.

Microsoft apparently stuck its hardware vendors majorly by pushing the release past the Christmas holidays. Shortly before it did that, I had been waxing more cynical than usual about the hype being generated about the release. It appeared that MS was planning to repeat the mob scenes they created for W95 and last winter's Xbox release. The postponement torpedoed that theory.

My sense is that the Second Rule of Bureaucracy applies: Never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) that which can be more readily explained by garden-variety stupidity.

Trust me. I worked for the government for 40 years. :(

rlohmann
March 23rd, 2006, 06:57 PM
I'm headed there faster than most.

(Written on Firefox 1.0.7 for (SuSE) Linux 9.3.)

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 10:07 PM
You....

<g>

Mike Landi
March 23rd, 2006, 10:10 PM
My sense is that the Second Rule of Bureaucracy applies: Never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) that which can be more readily explained by garden-variety stupidity.

I agree...with one exception. If internally, Microsoft knows that the security structure of Vista just plain stinks, they may have decided that it would be better to delay and fix most of the problems rather than release and face disaster.

(Hey, MSFT is great at spreading FUD [fear, uncertainy and doubt] when they need to buy time.)

rlohmann
March 24th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Not knowing exactly who Derek Jeter is may have something to do with it, but I can't imagine spending any money at all on a gizmo that will merely display the same old swill in greater detail.

Judy G. Russell
March 24th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Not knowing exactly who Derek Jeter is may have something to do with it...GASP!!! You don't know who Derek Jeter is??? You... you... you probably root for the Orioles! (Derek Jeter (http://www.theins.org/thenews/derekjeter.jpg) is the way cute captain of the NY Yankees.)

rlohmann
March 24th, 2006, 05:26 PM
I agree...with one exception. If internally, Microsoft knows that the security structure of Vista just plain stinks, they may have decided that it would be better to delay and fix most of the problems rather than release and face disaster.I'm trying to find the URL--I think it was one of the ZDnet newsletters--that suggests that you hit it on the nose. The theory is that somebody at the last minute discovered some hideous security vulnerability, one so horrendous that Microsoft had to bite the bullet.

I'll wait for Vista SP2 before I spend any money on it.

rlohmann
March 24th, 2006, 05:29 PM
Ach so! The New York Yankees.

Aren't they the baseball team that Gus Triandos worked for before he came to Baltimore and undying fame?

Judy G. Russell
March 24th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Gus Triandos... Gus Triandos... oh yeah... he played for Detroit, Philadelphia and Houston... and some other small insignificant city somewhere...

Mike Landi
March 24th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Wow...

The VRWC does not follow baseball!

Mike Landi
March 24th, 2006, 10:07 PM
I'll wait for Vista SP2 before I spend any money on it.

I'm done spending money voluntarily on Microsoft products. Too low quality. If my next computer comes with Vista (or Canyon, or Crater or whatever the nth next version is), I'll have to take it. Otherwise, I'll stick with what (mostly) works.

Let some other suckers debug the new OS.

Judy G. Russell
March 24th, 2006, 10:38 PM
Not since roughly 1955, at least!

fhaber
March 25th, 2006, 06:34 PM
>We still cannot set type as well as the old CPM systems could

I assume you're not kidding. You, my typographical goddess, are saying that commandline typesetters could do (what!!!?) better? Set an ad? Make a graceful book page better, with better text color and less-egregious widders/orphans? Index better? Blow up the RIP less often?

So we all should take up TeX/LaTeX? Wear hair shirts?

Mike
March 25th, 2006, 09:03 PM
(Derek Jeter (http://www.theins.org/thenews/derekjeter.jpg) is the way cute captain of the NY Yankees.)

Yes, he IS cute.

And he was hilarious on an episode of SNL. There was a sketch where he was one of the ball players' wives, sitting in the stands chatting and dissing everyone. At one point, [s]he pointed to the field and said, "And do you see that Derek Jeter? He looks like The Rock mated with a Muppet."

Judy G. Russell
March 25th, 2006, 10:24 PM
"And do you see that Derek Jeter? He looks like The Rock mated with a Muppet."ROFL!!! What a hoot!

Mike Landi
March 25th, 2006, 10:32 PM
...okay, I'll bite.

1955?

Judy G. Russell
March 25th, 2006, 11:52 PM
...okay, I'll bite. 1955?That, I think, is when Ralph was living in The Golden Age of Baltimore. Or so he says.

Bill Hirst
March 26th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Seeing the potential of this technology is fantastic. In a practical sense, it is a waste (except for sports).

But many of the shows will still have second-rate plots and less-than-stellar acting. A marvelous picture won't make the show any better than adding a couple of dozen CGI special effects. (I've always espoused a bare minimum of visual aids and letting the actors carry the show, almost like it is when reading a book.)

Besides, my eyes are not as good as they used to be. No matter how sharp the screen is, I'm going to see it a bit fuzzy.

Mike Landi
March 26th, 2006, 06:46 PM
...oh...

Baltimore had a golden age? <gd&r>

Judy G. Russell
March 26th, 2006, 11:24 PM
Baltimore had a golden age? <gd&r>Ralph thinks so. He's deluded, of course...

Mike Landi
March 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM
<ROFL>

rlohmann
March 27th, 2006, 06:10 PM
I heard that.

rlohmann
March 27th, 2006, 06:10 PM
I heard that, too.

Mike Landi
March 27th, 2006, 07:26 PM
<g>

Judy G. Russell
March 27th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Uh oh...

Lindsey
March 27th, 2006, 10:29 PM
I'm trying to find the URL--I think it was one of the ZDnet newsletters--that suggests that you hit it on the nose. The theory is that somebody at the last minute discovered some hideous security vulnerability, one so horrendous that Microsoft had to bite the bullet.
An article in Monday's NYT suggests that the real problem is that Windows has become the Jabba the Hut of operating systems:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/technology/27soft.html

--Lindsey

earler
March 28th, 2006, 06:50 AM
Baltimore's golden age was when mencken wrote for the sun.

-er

lensue
March 28th, 2006, 09:02 AM
>Baltimore's golden age was when mencken wrote for the sun. <

Earle, it's made a little comeback with that Inner Harbor area and a very impressive aquarium--the crabcakes continue to shine! Regards, Len [g]

rlohmann
March 28th, 2006, 06:47 PM
63 demerits

rlohmann
March 28th, 2006, 06:47 PM
26 demerits

rlohmann
March 28th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Why spend money on it at all?

As I understand it, cable TV providers will convert HD signals to analogue for the foreseeable future, so why bother buying an HDTV at all? Will junk in higher resolution make it anything other than junk?

rlohmann
March 28th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Yeah, well... :)

Linux can be somewhat of a problem for users without a certain amount of Unix experience. It runs under a GUI that's not particularly intuitive. What saves it is a "shell" icon that permits a certain amount of cheating because clicking on it brings up a terminal mode that accepts standard Unix commands.

Still, it's better IMO than Microsoft, which, both in size and growing bureaucratic sclerosis, is beginning to resemble the Federal Government more and more each day. :(

Mike Landi
March 28th, 2006, 07:45 PM
That's it?

Damn, I've got a long way to go to catch up to Judy.

Mike Landi
March 28th, 2006, 07:46 PM
Microsoft, which, both in size and growing bureaucratic sclerosis, is beginning to resemble the Federal Government more and more each day. :(


...or like IBM.

Judy G. Russell
March 28th, 2006, 10:40 PM
63 demeritsHey! How come I get twice as many as Mike???

Judy G. Russell
March 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM
As I understand it, cable TV providers will convert HD signals to analogue for the foreseeable future, so why bother buying an HDTV at all? Will junk in higher resolution make it anything other than junk?I have satellite, and satellite providers (both Dish and DirecTv) are way out in front on providing HD programming. But that doesn't mean junk is anything other than junk. (But the sports channels would be nice...)

earler
March 29th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I just returned from a visit to the states. I often feel french tv is pretty bad. But, when I am in the states I realize it is worse there.

-er

Jeff
March 29th, 2006, 03:00 PM
I have satellite, and satellite providers (both Dish and DirecTv) are way out in front on providing HD programming. But that doesn't mean junk is anything other than junk. (But the sports channels would be nice...)

I have a 32" CRT JVC set (yes it's big and heavy) which is "HD ready", which means if an HD signal comes through the digital cable box it will display it in HD. Otherwise it's a damned good picture in plain old analogue. HD is nice, the few times I've stumbled across it on the cable. Analogue is NOT nice on an HD only set.

- Jeff

Judy G. Russell
March 29th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Analogue is NOT nice on an HD only set.So I've heard. Which is among the biggest reasons why I ain't gonna be an early adopter on this technology either.

earler
March 30th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Be careful if/when you get a hd ready tv. It must have an hdmi connector. Otherwise, it ain't really hd. Alas, not a few tv's are sold w/o hdmi but still called hd ready.

-er

Judy G. Russell
March 30th, 2006, 02:28 PM
By the time I go hi def, all of this will have been worked out for years.

earler
March 30th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Assuming a tv lasts say 7 to 10 years, if you bought one today you'd be well advised to get one with that dpmi port.

-er

ndebord
March 30th, 2006, 09:58 PM
Why spend money on it at all?

As I understand it, cable TV providers will convert HD signals to analogue for the foreseeable future, so why bother buying an HDTV at all? Will junk in higher resolution make it anything other than junk?

Ralph,

I agree with you. Unless you are absolutely hooked on HDTV resolution, any of the cable or satellite providers will provide a set top box to convert the stuff to your old TV. I'll switch, one of these days, when my old TV kicks the bucket or those thin LCDs come down in price enough to justify buying one.

Judy G. Russell
March 30th, 2006, 10:54 PM
I'd be even better advised to sit tight until I have to make a change.

earler
March 31st, 2006, 04:21 AM
True enough. I have a sony I bought about 20 years ago and it is still going. But, It will soon be time to change and I'll be sure and get an lcd that has a dpmi port. I could get something cheaper without, but then five years down the line I might regret that shortsightedness.

-er