Firefox vs Opera

[davidh]

I've been having intermittent problems with window control icons (min, max, close, etc. and scroll icons, start button) getting covered with video trash and with display of system fonts getting trashed and with some XPCOM module failing to end and with bad shut downs of Windows 98 (and some lesser problems with XP too).

I suspect it might have something to do with Firefox. So I tried installing Opera 8.52. The download was only 3.6MB and it seems to run faster than FF and Windows might be screwing up less too. I'll see how it goes.

Might make Opera my default if I don't see too many compatibility problems.

These browsers can be a PITA :(

David H.

[ndebord]

I've been having intermittent problems with window control icons (min, max, close, etc. and scroll icons, start button) getting covered with video trash and with display of system fonts getting trashed and with some XPCOM module failing to end and with bad shut downs of Windows 98 (and some lesser problems with XP too).

I suspect it might have something to do with Firefox. So I tried installing Opera 8.52. The download was only 3.6MB and it seems to run faster than FF and Windows might be screwing up less too. I'll see how it goes.

Might make Opera my default if I don't see too many compatibility problems.

These browsers can be a PITA :(
David H.

David,

When the FF people took over Mozilla and banished the Suite, they also banished the old bug reporting system, which was more robust. Add in that FF 1.5.xxx is a major change in the browser and you got issues. (Which is why I stuck with Mozilla Suite 1.7.13, FF 1.0.7 and K-Meleon 0.9.1712.)

Seamonkey looks interesting, but it too is a new release and I've moved on to my alltime favorite for my everyday browser, which is K-Meleon. It uses Windows Widgets instead of XUL (except in some small cases) and runs very nicely using macros instead. It has one official stable version (0.9.1712) and several beta versions including one that is 100% free of XUL. Essentially it uses the Gecko engine and then cherry picks other stuff from Mozilla Suite and everything else in the way of addons and tools is written specifically for it in C++.

The Caveat is a big one. You have to either learn to write macros or read enough to cut and paste exisiting ones into your configuration files. It's all there for you to do, but it takes more work than FF or SM (Seamonkey) where you just add an extension that someone else has written).

The one I use is customized to the nines, as I keep my macros and reuse them from version to version and they do exactly what I want them to do, such as loading up external programs. I use a download manager that is external and uses a right click on the mouse/touchpad while the internal one uses left click. I also use a newsreader called Aggreg8, which is one of the few XUL apps used by KM.

As for Opera, I've tried it over and over again, from way back when it was free, then paid, and now free once again. It has always had some small compatibility issues with web design and an idiosyncratic interface that you have to get used to. Just my two cents on it.

[Peter Creasey]

I suspect it might have something to do with Firefox. So I tried installing Opera 8.52. The download was only 3.6MB and it seems to run faster than FF and Windows might be screwing up less too. I'll see how it goes.
Might make Opera my default if I don't see too many compatibility problems.
David H.

David, SeaMonkey is serving me VERY well (knock on wood) with WinXP Pro.

[Judy G. Russell]

If you're having problems like that with Firefox, chances are you have more problems than just Firefox. Better run anti-virus and anti-malware software!

[davidh]

If you're having problems like that with Firefox, chances are you have more problems than just Firefox. Better run anti-virus and anti-malware software! I haven't seen the munged icons and fonts since I stopped using Firefox. And I get better shut down's too.

I read somewhere that FF is designed to hog memory to the max to increase performance, so I might have to drop FF anyway because I don't want to buy a new computer when FF 2.0 comes out.

David H.

[Judy G. Russell]

I guess perhaps I'm not seeing any of this since I didn't make the shift to FF 1.5?

[davidh]

I guess perhaps I'm not seeing any of this since I didn't make the shift to FF 1.5? I think I had the problems before 1.5, but 1.5 probably made it worse. Unfortunately my memory is not accurate and I don't keep a "diary".

Opera has one or two compatiblity problems so far, but not serious. I'll see how it goes.

I probably would have stayed with FF 1.07 but my thought was that sooner or later there would be security holes that would be fixed in later versions but not in 1.0x versions.

David H.

[earler]

I'm inclined to second the opinion of another person, that you may have system problems that firefox is stumbling over. I have firefox on 5 different systems, ver. 1.5, and have had no problems. It does crash from time to time, about once a week, but internet explorer crashes more often than that.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

I truly don't think what you're seeing is caused by FF by itself, David. Please do go ahead and check the whole system. At worst, it'll take you a little time, and you'll have made sure you don't have a systemic problem!

[ndebord]

I think I had the problems before 1.5, but 1.5 probably made it worse. Unfortunately my memory is not accurate and I don't keep a "diary".

Opera has one or two compatiblity problems so far, but not serious. I'll see how it goes.

I probably would have stayed with FF 1.07 but my thought was that sooner or later there would be security holes that would be fixed in later versions but not in 1.0x versions.

David H.

David,

FF 1.07 will be followed shortly by FF 1.08. They are putting out bug fixes for this line of the browser and promise to continue to do so for a while.

[davidh]

I'm inclined to second the opinion of another person, that you may have system problems that firefox is stumbling over. I have firefox on 5 different systems, ver. 1.5, and have had no problems. It does crash from time to time, about once a week, but internet explorer crashes more often than that.

-er I suspect there are other problems too, but something subtler than what AVG, Spybot S&D, and Ad-Aware can find. There could even be hardware problems involved.

The problems are bearable, so if Opera turns out not to be enuf better than FF, I'll probably go back to FF.

And if I ever get really angry, I'll go back to MS-DOS and TAPCIS and LYNX.

David H.

[Gary Maltzen]

And if I ever get really angry, I'll go back to MS-DOS and TAPCIS and LYNX.Better yet, get a (free) KNOPPIX LiveCD and run from immutable CD. (Includes OpenOffice and Firefox)

[earler]

I doubt this is a problems addressable by the likes of avg, spybot, etc., but indeed a hardware one, hard disk or motherboard.

-er

[davidh]

Better yet, get a (free) KNOPPIX LiveCD and run from immutable CD. (Includes OpenOffice and Firefox) I also like DOS because it boots fast.

Can KNOPPIX read and write files on FAT or NTFS partitions ?

David H.

[Gary Maltzen]

Can KNOPPIX read and write files on FAT or NTFS partitions ?R/W: FAT-12, FAT-16, FAT-32
R/O: NTFS

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Can KNOPPIX read and write files on FAT or NTFS partitions ?

If you need to write, I would recommend Bart PE instead. http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

[Mike]

I'm using FF 1.5, and I don't have the problems you're reporting.

[davidh]

I'm using FF 1.5, and I don't have the problems you're reporting. I think I have something else wrong with my system and that FF tends to exposed the problem quicker than other programs that might not use as much resources. Opera crashes the system sometimes but less than FF. No definite conclusions yet.

David H.

[ndebord]

I think I have something else wrong with my system and that FF tends to exposed the problem quicker than other programs that might not use as much resources. Opera crashes the system sometimes but less than FF. No definite conclusions yet.

David H.

David,

Might I inquire what OS you are running?

[davidh]

David,

Might I inquire what OS you are running? Windows 98 SE

What I have discovered so far is that there is something that can crash Opera and when it does crash, Opera CANNOT load again until after the system is rebooted. Additionally, there are OTHER applications that CANNOT load after such a crash occurs. Namely, Firefox, Spybot S&D, Yahoo Messenger, that I have discovered so far. However, Paltalk Messenger appears to load and run ok after the Opera crash.

The especially interesting thing is that it seems that if I load IE and then exit IE, the problem goes away. So there may be some DLL(s) with problem(s).

Unfortunately, I was going to use Spybot to look at the running processes and their loaded modules, but of couse Spybot crashed so that did not work.

AVG and Zone Alaram are also resident all the time.

David H.

[earler]

Well, windoes 98 is long past its sell by date. If your system is equally ancient, consider getting a new one. You can get a quite decent one for less than $1000 today, perhaps closer to $500.

-er

[davidh]

Well, windoes 98 is long past its sell by date. If your system is equally ancient, consider getting a new one. You can get a quite decent one for less than $1000 today, perhaps closer to $500.

-er
Jim Louderback's email newsletter pointed to a web article (Ziff Davis) on a $159 Linspire system just this week, IIRC. Maybe I'll wait until my HD crashes and switch to LINUX ;)

The XPCOM (a DLL, I think) in Firefox and also in Thunderbird seems to have intermittent problems on my wife's XP system in addition to the fact that it has problems on this Win 98 system. I suspect that XPCOM is in turn dependent on a bunch of OTHER DLL's. So, while the specific problem may be DIFFERENT on the two different machines, it's not unlikely that there is a DLL somewhere that is having problems or that was updated to fix some problems and then brought on new problems.

David H.

[ndebord]

Windows 98 SE

What I have discovered so far is that there is something that can crash Opera and when it does crash, Opera CANNOT load again until after the system is rebooted. Additionally, there are OTHER applications that CANNOT load after such a crash occurs. Namely, Firefox, Spybot S&D, Yahoo Messenger, that I have discovered so far. However, Paltalk Messenger appears to load and run ok after the Opera crash.

The especially interesting thing is that it seems that if I load IE and then exit IE, the problem goes away. So there may be some DLL(s) with problem(s).

Unfortunately, I was going to use Spybot to look at the running processes and their loaded modules, but of couse Spybot crashed so that did not work.

AVG and Zone Alaram are also resident all the time.

David H.

David,

Assuming nothing is wrong with your firmware and that you are not currently infected with viruses, worms or trojans, there is one unofficial upgrade for Win98se that I've used and consider essential for continuing to use Win98se.

http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

Some time ago, I had some problems with my installation and this cured my computer. But as others here have noted, at some point you will have to upgrade as will I. I figure the dual core Intel cpus that are coming out will be that time (after they go on sale, of course.)

W98se
PIII-600
320 Megs RAM

[earler]

I've been quite happy with firefox. It does crash every several days, but that seems better than par compared to ie and not much different than the other browsers.

-er

[davidh]

I've been quite happy with firefox. It does crash every several days, but that seems better than par compared to ie and not much different than the other browsers.

-er I think you are right. FF does seem to crash less than Opera, but Opera does seem to be faster, not sure yet tho'. I hardly ever use IE because I'm scared of security holes. Microsoft still does offer some support for critical updates for IE 6, but I just don't feel safe with IE at all.

I have my Zone Alarm firewall set to always ask permission to run IE just in case some other app tries to fire up IE to go to some site or view some ad, etc.

David H.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

FF does seem to crash less than Opera
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Firefox/1.5.0.1

Has been stable for me. I throw plug-ins and extensions at it with reckless abandon, although a really bad extension will crash it quickly. Once I weeded out the incompatible extensions, I can run at least 60 or 80 tabs open before it starts using so much memory that it is time to clean house.

[ndebord]

I think you are right. FF does seem to crash less than Opera, but Opera does seem to be faster, not sure yet tho'. I hardly ever use IE because I'm scared of security holes. Microsoft still does offer some support for critical updates for IE 6, but I just don't feel safe with IE at all.

I have my Zone Alarm firewall set to always ask permission to run IE just in case some other app tries to fire up IE to go to some site or view some ad, etc.

David H.

David,

If I read your posts right, you are running AVG, ZoneAlarm and Spybot all the time. If that is the case, in W98se, you might well be using up all your system resources. I have found that ZoneAlarm and Spybot are resource hogs and have looked to alternatives.

W98se
Kerio 2.1.5 Firewall
AVG
AdAware SE Personal

[ndebord]

I've been quite happy with firefox. It does crash every several days, but that seems better than par compared to ie and not much different than the other browsers.

-er

Earle,

The Gecko engine is fine, it's just the rest of the package that isn't quite right in FireFox right now. FF 1.5 is a new baby and it has teething pains. Personally I think the Mozilla Suite (1.7.12, not Seamonkey 1.0) is more stable and of course, K-Meleon as it just uses the Gecko engine and very little of the XUL stuff and not at all in one experimental variation.

[davidh]

David,

If I read your posts right, you are running AVG, ZoneAlarm and Spybot all the time. If that is the case, in W98se, you might well be using up all your system resources. I have found that ZoneAlarm and Spybot are resource hogs and have looked to alternatives.

W98se
Kerio 2.1.5 Firewall
AVG
AdAware SE Personal

I run Spybot and AdAware only for on-demand scans, not resident. For AVG, I unload the "console" and only run it when I want to do on-demand scans, but the resident part is still running all the time.

So you may well be right about lack of resources, but there's also something elses screwed up on my system, which at least does not cause serious problems because it only causes incomplete shut downs.

David H.

[ndebord]

I run Spybot and AdAware only for on-demand scans, not resident. For AVG, I unload the "console" and only run it when I want to do on-demand scans, but the resident part is still running all the time.

So you may well be right about lack of resources, but there's also something elses screwed up on my system, which at least does not cause serious problems because it only causes incomplete shut downs.

David H.

David,

I wouldn't call that inconsequential. That is a serious problem. If you would, please do follow up on that unofficial update to W98se link that I posted. I was leary at first, but am a convert now. And haven't experienced ANY crashses since I installed it.

[rlohmann]

I'm not sure the problem is with Firefox. I think the XP registry is at fault. After awhile, it seems to corrupt itself to the extent that it starts trashing applications.

I wonder if Vista has a registry. :(

[Judy G. Russell]

I wonder if Vista has a registry. :(Yep. Unfortunately.

[davidh]

David,

Assuming nothing is wrong with your firmware and that you are not currently infected with viruses, worms or trojans, there is one unofficial upgrade for Win98se that I've used and consider essential for continuing to use Win98se.

http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

Some time ago, I had some problems with my installation and this cured my computer. But as others here have noted, at some point you will have to upgrade as will I. I figure the dual core Intel cpus that are coming out will be that time (after they go on sale, of course.)

W98se
PIII-600
320 Megs RAM
That package looks like it might have some things in it that I might want even if it does not remove my problems.

However, currently things seem to be going better after did a couple things different on this system.

1. Made Opera my default browser and stopped using Firefox (for now anyway).

2. Upgraded my Paltalk voice chat from version 8.1 to 8.2.

It could very well be that these two changes did not really fix the underlying problem (e.g. something in Windows 98SE itself), but instead just somehow avoid aggravating the problem.

Or maybe it's the sunspots ;)

David H.

[davidh]

That package looks like it might have some things in it that I might want even if it does not remove my problems.

However, currently things seem to be going better after did a couple things different on this system.

1. Made Opera my default browser and stopped using Firefox (for now anyway).

2. Upgraded my Paltalk voice chat from version 8.1 to 8.2.

It could very well be that these two changes did not really fix the underlying problem (e.g. something in Windows 98SE itself), but instead just somehow avoid aggravating the problem.

Or maybe it's the sunspots ;)

David H. Not sure yet, but it looks like Paltalk may have been the culprit. It was confusing though, because the damage always seemed to show up initially in Firefox.

[rlohmann]

Why not?

[Judy G. Russell]

Why not [shift to FF 1.5]?Frankly, I didn't see any reason to. I have Firefox working exactly the way I want it to, and don't see any reason to fix what ain't broke.

[Mike]

I have Firefox working exactly the way I want it to, and don't see any reason to fix what ain't broke.

There are some security issues resolved by FF1.5. And... 1.5 is able to apply patches to upgrade as further security issues arise.

I have 1.5 working exactly the way I want it to. :-)

[Judy G. Russell]

I have 1.5 working exactly the way I want it to. :-)Okay. So the next time you come out here, you can get it working on my machine the way I want it to. Howzzat?

[Mike]

Sure! Can you send me a couple of tickets?

[Judy G. Russell]

Why? Were you speeding?