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[rlohmann]

From Ray Bell


"I'd rather hunt with Dick Cheney
"Than ride with Ted Kennedy."

<sneering and awaiting torrents of abuse from the Usual Suspects.

:)

[Judy G. Russell]

"Late Show with David Letterman," CBS

# "Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney."

# "But here is the sad part -- before the trip Donald Rumsfeld had denied the guy's request for body armor."

# "We can't get Bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney."

# "The guy who got gunned down, he is a Republican lawyer and a big Republican donor and fortunately the buck shot was deflected by wads of laundered cash. So he's fine. He took a little in the wallet."

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno," NBC

# "Although it is beautiful here in California, the weather back East has been atrocious. There was so much snow in Washington, D.C., Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fat guy thinking it was a polar bear."

# "That's the big story over the weekend. ... Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent."

# "I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?' "

# "Dick Cheney is capitalizing on this for Valentine's Day. It's the new Dick Cheney cologne. It's called Duck!"

"The Daily Show with Jon Stewart," Comedy Central

# The show's segment titles included "Cheney's Got a Gun," "No. 2 With a Bullet" and "Dead-Eye Dick."

# "Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a man during a quail hunt ... making 78-year-old Harry Whittington the first person shot by a sitting veep since Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, of course, (was) shot in a duel with Aaron Burr over issues of honor, integrity and political maneuvering. Whittington? Mistaken for a bird."

# "Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. ... But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. ... Moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted -- it's just not worth it."

"Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson," CBS

# "He is a lawyer and he got shot in the face. But he's a lawyer, he can use his other face. He'll be all right."

# "You can understand why this lawyer fellow let his guard down, because if you're out hunting with a politician, you think, 'If I'm going to get it, it's going to be in the back.' "

# "The big scandal apparently is that they didn't release the news for 18 hours. I don't think that's a scandal at all. I'm quite pleased about that. Finally there's a secret the vice president's office can keep."

# "Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past."

[RayB (France)]

"Late Show with David Letterman," CBS

# "Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney."

# "But here is the sad part -- before the trip Donald Rumsfeld had denied the guy's request for body armor."

# "We can't get Bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney."

# "The guy who got gunned down, he is a Republican lawyer and a big Republican donor and fortunately the buck shot was deflected by wads of laundered cash. So he's fine. He took a little in the wallet."

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno," NBC

# "Although it is beautiful here in California, the weather back East has been atrocious. There was so much snow in Washington, D.C., Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fat guy thinking it was a polar bear."

# "That's the big story over the weekend. ... Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent."

# "I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?' "

# "Dick Cheney is capitalizing on this for Valentine's Day. It's the new Dick Cheney cologne. It's called Duck!"

"The Daily Show with Jon Stewart," Comedy Central

# The show's segment titles included "Cheney's Got a Gun," "No. 2 With a Bullet" and "Dead-Eye Dick."

# "Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a man during a quail hunt ... making 78-year-old Harry Whittington the first person shot by a sitting veep since Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, of course, (was) shot in a duel with Aaron Burr over issues of honor, integrity and political maneuvering. Whittington? Mistaken for a bird."

# "Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. ... But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. ... Moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted -- it's just not worth it."

"Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson," CBS

# "He is a lawyer and he got shot in the face. But he's a lawyer, he can use his other face. He'll be all right."

# "You can understand why this lawyer fellow let his guard down, because if you're out hunting with a politician, you think, 'If I'm going to get it, it's going to be in the back.' "

# "The big scandal apparently is that they didn't release the news for 18 hours. I don't think that's a scandal at all. I'm quite pleased about that. Finally there's a secret the vice president's office can keep."

# "Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past."

Some funny lines! For once the Demos didn't complain that it wasn't a bi-partisan affair.

We get the 'Late-nite Comics' here on Sat but it is mostly 'Cheap-shot' humor and we don't really care. As much as I disliked Billy-Jeff, I felt found much of the 'humor' thrown at him downright disgusting and was embarrassed for them if that was the best they could do.

In the end the story is - 'The Veep accidentally wounded one of his hunting partners.' End of news item. Next!

[chm]

Thanks for the funnies.

Cheney's going to be the target of jokes for a while with this.

Good news for his boss since humor will be deflected away from him, for a change.

Believe it or not, CafePress (where I have stores) actually asked its shopkeepers to come up with some T-shirts, etc. targeting Dick Cheney and his misadventure. Seems the customer demand was that great. (No, I didn't comply, for various reasons.)

Beware of the Cheney!

Carolyn

[Judy G. Russell]

I keep thinking how much funnier the story would be if it had been Dan Quayle that the Veep shot...

[Judy G. Russell]

Talk about the gang that couldn't shoot straight... (The opportunities for puns here are almost unlimited...)

[rlohmann]

Beware of the Cheney!Of all the people he could have shot, it had to be a lawyer. :(

[rlohmann]

Evidently you watch much more television than I do....

<sneering amiably>

[ndebord]

From Ray Bell


"I'd rather hunt with Dick Cheney
"Than ride with Ted Kennedy."

<sneering and awaiting torrents of abuse from the Usual Suspects.

:)

Ralph,

So, choose your poison. Death by drowning or [possible] death by gunshot. Both of these guys were reckless. The only difference is one was reckless in his relative youth and the other in his dotage.

[Judy G. Russell]

With the way lawyers are regarded these days, it's a wonder he only pulled the trigger once...

[Judy G. Russell]

Nope. I read more websites than you do.

[Lindsey]

I keep thinking how much funnier the story would be if it had been Dan Quayle that the Veep shot...
Now that would have been classic.

Can you imagine what would have happened had this been Gore, or Clinton, or Kerry who had accidently shot someone?

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

It's a sure bet NOBODY would be suggesting that the victim was even a tiny bit at fault.

[lensue]

>Both of these guys were reckless. <

Nick, I think there's quite a difference here. Whatever faults Cheny exhibited as a hunter that's far different to me than knowing that the girl you were playing around with is out there in a car submerged in water and then spending a whole night before deciding to call for help. Regards, Len

[RayB (France)]

Hi Len -

How about this -

[earler]

While I am no fan of mr. cheney, I don't think he is in his dotage.

-er

[lensue]

>How about this <

Ray, ROFLMAO! Regards, Len

[rlohmann]

Are you suggesting that there is no difference in culpability between Kennedy and Cheney?

[chm]

I keep thinking how much funnier the story would be if it had been Dan Quayle that the Veep shot...
So you picked up on that Quayle = quail, too? : ) And, the irony.

In one scenario: Veep shoots Veep (Quail/Quayle)?

Newspapers would have had to really restrain themselves in their headline writing - no, it would come out funny no matter how you wrote it, unless you simply substituted "Vice President" and skipped the name "Quayle" altogether. Awkward.

We must be getting old - I guess people don't remember Dan Quayle so much anymore. I'm sure he's glad, considering how much Quayle was the butt of jokes - and he didn't even shoot anybody.

(In another dimension: Quayle shoots Cheney?)

Carolyn

[chm]

Now that would have been classic.

Can you imagine what would have happened had this been Gore, or Clinton, or Kerry who had accidently shot someone?

--Lindsey
What if Al Gore had gone to Spain and had been attacked by a bull in that dang-fool bull stampede they have?

You can fill in the blanks yourself. And, don't forget the many wonderful rhyming words which could be used: sore, score, bore, tore, Thor...

Also, Gore bulls as he discusses his next run for the presidency...

If it were Kerry with the accidental shooting, there would have to be reference to the Vietnam war. Maybe even his medals.

Clinton? Monica would fit in there somehow. Or maybe angry Hillary. Or both. No, wait, Clinton wouldn't shoot anybody. He would more likely be shot at - by a woman, see above.

Carolyn

[chm]

LOL!

Carolyn

[Judy G. Russell]

We must be getting old - I guess people don't remember Dan Quayle so much anymore. I'm sure he's glad, considering how much Quayle was the butt of jokes - and he didn't even shoot anybody.The only thing he shot was his mouth... and that was usually a misfire. Some documented Quayle-isms:

# "Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

# "Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts."

# "Mars is essentially in the same orbit . . . Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

# "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

# "The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

# "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."

# "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared.'"

# "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

# "I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

# "The future will be better tomorrow."

# "We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

# "People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

# "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."

# "We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."

# "I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican."

# "I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."

# "When I have been asked during these last weeks who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame."

# "Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

# "We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

# "For NASA, space is still a high priority."

# "Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

# "[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

[mshefler]

My favorite cartoon so far (from the NY Times)

http://www.uclick.com/client/nyt/jd/

[Lindsey]

Nick, I think there's quite a difference here.
Oh, there certainly is: Kennedy is a Democrat and Cheney is a Republican.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

So you picked up on that Quayle = quail, too? : ) And, the irony.
A further bit of irony that occurred to me today: The shooting occured in Kenedy County.

(In another dimension: Quayle shoots Cheney?)
How about: Cheney Goes on Quail Hunt, Gets Bagged by Quayle ?

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Yeah, they'd have had a field day. And now the same people who would never have let that story die (just as they are still flogging Chappaquiddick 40 years later) are saying, "Let's move on" ...

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

You're making me nostalgic for Dan Quayle!

(Do you think Bush chose him for VP because he saw him as a second son?)

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

My favorite cartoon so far (from the NY Times)
Pretty good!

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>Kennedy is a Democrat and Cheney is a Republican<

Lindsey, that's it--surely you jest! Cheney was involved in a really bad accident and took immediate action to save a firend. Kennedy was involved in an extramarital affair and tragically a girl wound up in the water submerged in a car--Kennedy took hours before he called the police. Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

(Do you think Bush chose him for VP because he saw him as a second son?)Oooooh... mean... funny, but mean...

[Judy G. Russell]

My favorite:

[Lindsey]

Cheney was involved in a really bad accident and took immediate action to save a firend.
Uhhhh -- and what action was that?

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

My favorite:
Oh, my!

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>what action was that<

Lindsey, wasn't there immediate medical attention given to Whittington--here's a quote from CNN news: "The vice president, his Secret Service detail and other companions rushed to the wounded man's aid, Armstrong said." Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

>what action was that<

Lindsey, wasn't there immediate medical attention given to Whittington
Which was, I believe, rendered by the standby medical team that follows Cheney like a shadow.

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>Which was, I believe, rendered by the standby medical team that follows Cheney like a shadow.<

Lindsey, so? The Ted Kennedy actions were much different and quite reprehensible--AAMOF he actually killed another human being as I learned today. Cheney was involved in an unfortunate action but did nothing like what Kennedy did. So what you said about one being a Democrat and one being a Republican just doesn't IMO hold up. Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

Ted Kennedy didn't deliberately kill another human being, and Cheney's "unfortunate action" could just as easily have resulted in Whittington's death. So that's not a distinction that was fully under the control of either one of them. Kennedy's actions following the accident were certainly blameworthy, but I'm not sure I see Cheney's actions as all that admirable. He went, what -- 15 hours without talking to the authorities? -- when anyone else would be expected to make an immediate account of his actions. He kept the White House in the dark; he ducked the press; his spokesmen blamed his victim. In the end he did the right thing (more or less) and took responsibility for pulling the trigger in an unsafe manner. But in the meantime, the way he handled it created a difficult situation for the president he's supposed to be serving.

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>Ted Kennedy didn't deliberately kill another human being,<

Lindsey, who said he did--still a person who I respect in this forum quotes as follows and has convinced me that her use of the term is correct: "Anybody who didn't know that Teddy Kennedy killed a woman in his car at Chappaquiddick is someone who also probably believes the US bombed Pearl Harbor and the Civil War is where we won our independence from Great Britain"

>and Cheney's "unfortunate action" could just as easily have resulted in Whittington's death. <

So? Accidents occur but are you still trying to equate what Cheney did with what Kennedy did? Kennedy spent hours back in a hotel room contemplating his political future while the girl he was with was lying under water in a car--what did Cheney do that's in any way comparable to that.

> but I'm not sure I see Cheney's actions as all that admirable. <

I don't either but he didn't do what Kennedy did. I'm not such a great fan of either Cheney or Bush and haven't liked their styles that much.

>But in the meantime, the way he handled it created a difficult situation for the president he's supposed to be serving.<

I agree but that's not what Kennedy did that night. Regards, Len

[earler]

The authorities were aware of what happened. After all, there were texas police there, too. What cheney was guilty of was not telling the press for 15 hours. As far as I know, this is no crime, though the press certainly treated it as such. What is really to be criticized here was the poor public relations, which hurt the white house, too, as well the office of vice president.

As for the death of that young lady, well no one knows if kennedy intended to kill her or not. She was pregnant, if my memory serves me correctly, and some people said kennedy killed her because she was going to tell his wife and/or the press. Now, I don't know if this is true or not. Nor do you. However, no one can say that kennedy "didn't deliberately kill another human being". We don't know and we probably will never know.

-er

[rlohmann]

You're right. It's time to stop "flogging Chappaquiddick."

Being a liberal Democrat means never having to say you're sorry. :rolleyes:

[rlohmann]

With respect to the hunting accident, I believe I did so a few messages ago. With respect to Chappaquiddick....

[rlohmann]

Gullible you, alas.

See http://tinyurl.com/avred

[Judy G. Russell]

You're missing the point. It is PRECISELY because people are blaming the victim here that I made that comment.

[Lindsey]

Lindsey, who said he did
Let me try this again: Ted Kennedy didn't deliberately kill another human being.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Your memory is incorrect. That was one of the wild speculative rumors that was flying around amid the brouhaha that Ralph insists didn't occur, but it was never more than wild rumor. A little like the rumors that flew around after Cheney's accident saying he was under the influence of alcohol, and that that's why he didn't talk to the police (not the press, the police) for some 15-18 hours following the accident. It was much longer that 15 hours before Cheney himself said anything to the press -- more like a week.

And surely you're not saying that if authorities in a shooting incident think they are "aware of what happened," they shouldn't want to hear the account of the guy who pulled the trigger -- and hear it while it is fresh in his memory and before he has a chance to coordinate his story with that of other witnesses?

--Lindsey

[lensue]

>Let me try this again: Ted Kennedy didn't deliberately kill another human being<

Lindsey, I thought I told you already I agreed with you on that although it is too bad there was no autopsy on the body--there are those who speculate that maybe she was pregnant and maybe it was his baby--I don't believe it but it would be something if his actions mirror that opera I was talking about that we just saw based on Dreiser's novel,An American Tragedy,the scene where he has engineered a meeting on a lake in upstate NY in order to get rid of her but she slips before he can push her off their isolated canoe was incredibly well done at the Met!

Well back to these accidents--what you haven't done yet is admit that there's a big difference between the actions of Cheney and Kennedy concerning the accidents. Or will you stick with this statement you made earlier: "Oh, there certainly is: Kennedy is a Democrat and Cheney is a Republican." Regards, Len

[earler]

We don't know if he deliberately killed mary jo kopecne. Please don't mix facts and your own beliefs. It is also possible that the young woman might have been saved if mr. kennedy had been braver and/or sober. He got out of the car; she didn't.

-er

[earler]

Given that an autopsy was never performed, thanks to kennedy family pressure on the police, it is far from wild to speculate that the victim might have been pregnant. Given the circumstances of the accident at chappaquidik, either mr. kennedy was dui or his intention was to do away with the young lady. Take your choice.

With cheney, we have substantive proof that he wasn't drunk, confirmed by the gentleman he accidentally shot. As far as I know, mary jo never testified following her death. There were no other witnesses.

I should add that mr. kennedy has always been known for his heavy consumption of alcohol, since he was a young man. Whatever his weaknesses, cheney is not considered a heavy drinker.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

I think the real issue here is why we have been distracted from considering Cheney's actions by an attempting to compare and contrast it to something that happened more than 35 years ago. Why is it necessary, almost an act of faith, for the GOP to say, every single time a Republican does something stupid, "Oh, but it wasn't as bad as [fill in the Democrat blank]!"

[lensue]

>I think the real issue here is why we have been distracted from considering Cheney's actions by an attempting to compare and contrast it to something that happened more than 35 years ago.<

Judy, I think comparisons can be valuable. All actions are subject to spin and criticism and different interpretation. Therefore sometimes you try to compare a particuliar act to what came before. Clearly the discussion of Cheney's accident and all the discussion about it by the press lends itself to looking back at other examples and Kennedy's is right there to look at. Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

I don't buy it, Len. The argument being made is "Cheney's conduct isn't SO bad." That obscures the question of whether Cheney's conduct is bad, period.

[Lindsey]

Lindsey, I thought I told you already I agreed with you on that
Actually, no, you seemed to think I was implying that you had said the opposite, when what I had intended was simply to emphasize that it wasn't deliberate.

Or will you stick with this statement you made earlier: "Oh, there certainly is: Kennedy is a Democrat and Cheney is a Republican." Regards, Len
I will go with something I said even earlier than that: I'm sorry you don't understand irony, sarcasm, figures of speech . . .

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

We don't know if he deliberately killed mary jo kopecne. Please don't mix facts and your own beliefs.
Now that is truly laughable, given the context of this thread. You would prefer, perhaps, mixing in bits of pure fiction, as Len has done?

When you come down to it, we don't KNOW that Dick Cheney didn't deliberately shoot Whittington, either. But I think it is unlikely, just as I think it is unlikely that Kennedy set out to kill Mary Jo Kopechne. And what we DO know is that there is no evidence suggesting that either man set out to do deliberate harm to someone else.

It is also possible that the young woman might have been saved if mr. kennedy had been braver and/or sober.
I refer you to your admonition to me: It's only your own belief that Kennedy was not sober; there was no evidence that he was not. Nor is there any evidence that rescuers might have been able to get her out of the car in time to save her had they been called. We can't know that for sure; all we know is that a jury declined to indict.

--Lindsey

[earler]

No knows if the kennedy deliberately killed mary jo. Nor does any one know if he didn't, other than kennedy himself. Evidence was suppressed. No autopsy was performed and the amount of alcohol in kennedy's blood never measured.

No, I don't know if kennedy was sober or not. Nor do I know if mary jo was already dead when the car hit the water. Given the fact that kennedy was a not a beginner driver it is hard to imagine such an accident unless it was deliberate or he was drunk.

Remember the jury didn't indict because it had no evidence. No autopsy. And, it was in the state of massachusetts. Mary jo's family was paid off, obviously, too.

-er

[ktinkel]

When you come down to it, we don't KNOW that Dick Cheney didn't deliberately shoot Whittington, either. … It's only your own belief that Kennedy was not sober; there was no evidence that he was not. I have read suggestions that Cheney was drinking (http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060216/cm_huffpost/015779;_ylt=A86.I2KAxvRDk0YA.gr9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBj MHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--) (not just one beer) and that the long pause before contacting officials was to make sure he could pass a breathalizer test.

That too is speculation, of course. But there are conflicting reports of what actually happened at the Texas ranch, and we may never find out the truth.

Molly Ivins wrote briefly about Whittington (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0602160144feb16,1,7741091.story?coll=chi-opinionfront-hed) in her syndicated column Sunday. He’s practically a liberal, at least on prison issues, and in her view a “seriously civilized” man.

[lensue]

>Actually, no, <

Lindsey, see my message as follows:

"February 17th, 2006, 11:50 PM
lensue
Member Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 184

You said: "Ted Kennedy didn't deliberately kill another human being,"

I said: "Lindsey, who said he did--still a person who I respect in this forum quotes as follows and has convinced me that her use of the term is correct"


>I will go with something I said even earlier than that: I'm sorry you don't understand irony, sarcasm, figures of speech . . .<

Well recently were given alot of Gilbert and Sullivan tapes and Sue and I have been watching them--IMO they do a much better job than you on that score! Regards, Len [r,d,g]

[lensue]

>Given the fact that kennedy was a not a beginner driver <

Earle, when my wife and I were touring up there some time ago I wanted to take that road to check Kennedy's story and IMO there's no way that could have been an honest mistake. You're driving on a regular paved two lane road and it's almost impossible to see where you make the right on to an extrmemly bumpy dirt road which you're on for sometime. I think your conclusions on his driving are right on! Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

Unless you did that in 1969, and inebriated, you have no basis for comparing what you saw to what he saw.

[lensue]

>you have no basis for comparing <

Judy, no basis at all--why not. Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

Because you can't say what you saw at a later time is the same thing he saw at an earlier time -- roads, lighting, everything can change, even in a short time period -- even at a different time of day, things can be very different.

[lensue]

>Because you can't say what you saw at a later time is the same thing he saw at an earlier time <

Judy, I disagree--I'd say there's an excellent chance those roads hadn't changed one iota--I was there only a few years after him. The right on to the dirt road was so sharp that I missed it the first time and we were looking for it--it was daylight and the weather was perfect. Then being on that dirt road it took us 4 minutes of bumpiness at least to get to the beach area and that bridge--he had to know he was going the wrong way. Well tonight we see the Verdi opera at the Met--La Forza Del Destino--maybe that's what happened in his case--The Forces of Destiny! Regards, Len [g]

[Judy G. Russell]

You've been there and I haven't, so I'll defer... but remember that the right onto the dirt road could have been changed after the accident to make it much more difficult to make a mistake...

[earler]

Ah! I see! The road was paved in 1969, but they removed the paving afterwards. Interesting.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

You know as well as I do that the difference between one paving job and another, the difference between the way an intersection was cut one time versus another, can be very substantial. Unless you were there at the time, you really can't say that what someone else saw at a later time was comparable.

[Lindsey]

No [one] knows if
That's right: no one knows. Not even you.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

I have read suggestions that Cheney was drinking (http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060216/cm_huffpost/015779;_ylt=A86.I2KAxvRDk0YA.gr9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBj MHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--) (not just one beer) and that the long pause before contacting officials was to make sure he could pass a breathalizer test.
And that's something we'll never know the whole truth of. Funny, last week I saw a couple of mentions that it was "well known" in Washington circles that Cheney was a big drinker -- they weren't saying he was a drunk, just one of those big shots that likes his cocktails in the evening. Then there was Mary Matalin on "Meet the Press" Sunday insisting that it is "well known" in Washington that Cheney doesn't drink. (Though by his own admission he is not a complete teetotaler.) So who knows?

But the part of RJ Eskow's article that tickled me the most was this comment about his calling the shooting "Cheney's Chappaquiddick":

That analogy seems to drive conservatives insane, by the way. The hate mail and even threats I've received are beyond anything I've ever seen. I guess the word's been such a treasured icon of hate for them that the possible loss of it drives them into a frenzy.
--Lindsey

[earler]

I said from the beginning that I don't know. On the other hand, you said you did know that kennedy didn't deliberately kill the young woman. How is it that you know this and no one else makes that claim?

-er

[ktinkel]

… mentions that it was "well known" in Washington circles that Cheney was a big drinker … Mary Matalin on "Meet the Press" Sunday insisting that it is "well known" in Washington that Cheney doesn't drink. … So who knows?Guess we would have to know who has most to lose (or gain) by knowing this. Two of those (Cheney, Matalin) are on the same team here. But who knows who feeds the D.C. rumor mill, or why!

But the part of RJ Eskow's article that tickled me the most was this comment about his calling the shooting "Cheney's Chappaquiddick"Oh, yes. I wonder myself if they keep bringing Chappaquiddick up because it is the only seriously bad behavior they have to pin on Democrats. Seems unlikely to me, but the Republicans sure do cling to it.

[Judy G. Russell]

the Republicans sure do cling to it.Read through the threads here on Cheney... and just about every post from anyone on that side is about Chappaquiddick. "But Cheney's not as bad as Teddy!" Sheeeesh.

[earler]

I suggest you read elizabeth bumiller's article in the times. It summarizes things quite well. First of all, while matalin did work for cheney, she hasn't done so for a while. Second, matalin was contacted and she was somewhat surprised how upset cheney was. Rather than worry about his own situation, he was most concerned about his accidental shooting of whittington. He was very shaken.

Cheney, by the way, is well known not to be a drinker. Matalin, who confirmed this, is no idiot. She is far too smart to affirm something that isn't true.

As for bringing up kennedy, it wasn't the republicans who did this, but democrats.

-er

[lensue]

>that the right onto the dirt road could have been changed <

Judy, I should go check this out--what an excuse to get back to that area for a little vacation--maybe this summer!!! Regards, Len [g]

[lensue]

>is the only seriously bad behavior they have to pin on Democrats<

Ktinkel, what do you mean--we have Clinton too! And what about that ghostwriting of Hillary's! Regards, Len [g]

[Judy G. Russell]

Always glad to be of help -- even if it's only as an excuse!

[ktinkel]

Ktinkel, what do you mean--we have Clinton too! And what about that ghostwriting of Hillary's! Regards, Len [g]I must have missed the news the day that Bill or Hillary Clinton shot or killed another person (and if you want to indict for ghost-writing, you will have a long list!)

The vice-president’s disturbing offense was his failure to notify officials as soon as the accident occurred. We still do not know why.

Yes, that does mirror Ted Kennedy’s behavior several decades ago, but most of the talk of Chappaquiddick now is a form of weird recreation so far as I can see. That event doesn’t illuminate this new one.

[earler]

Since the authorities were present, obviously since the vp was there, the only offense that cheney (or his entourage) was guilty of was not informing the press promptly. Nothing felonious about the conduct. It was indeed clumsy and stupid. This is wholly unlike kennedy's conduct back in 1969.

-er

[lensue]

>This is wholly unlike kennedy's conduct back in 1969. <

Earle, so you're contending Cheney's accident didn't occur in KENEDY COUNTY [kenedy county, texas]! Regards, Len [g]

[ktinkel]

Since the authorities were present, obviously since the vp was there, the only offense that cheney (or his entourage) was guilty of was not informing the press promptly. I believe even the veep is accountable to the local constabulary, and it was definitely not present at the time, nor for hours afterwards.

[lensue]

>We still do not know why<

Ktinkel, well I don't know either--Newsweek suggested he might have been considering how Whittington wanted the news released. I've heard Cheney was really in a state of shock after the accident. Regards, Len

[Lindsey]

I said from the beginning that I don't know. On the other hand, you said you did know that kennedy didn't deliberately kill the young woman. How is it that you know this and no one else makes that claim?

You're reading too much into what I said, but if it makes you happy, how about if I put it this way: There is no reason to believe that Ted Kennedy deliberately killed another human being.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Judy, I should go check this out--what an excuse to get back to that area for a little vacation--maybe this summer!!! Regards, Len [g]
Yeah, and I'm sure in 40 years it hasn't changed the least little bit. :cool:

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

I've heard Cheney was really in a state of shock after the accident.
LOL!!!!! That was Ted Kennedy's explanation in 1967!!!!!

--Lindsey

[earler]

Well that's better. You first said that he didn't deliberately kill her. Now you say there is no reason to believe he did. However, there is a reason to believe he might have: If she was pregnant and wished to make him leave his wife. An autopsy of her body, a requirement whenever a death occurs without the presence of a doctor who is willing to sign the death certificate, and a full investigation of the circumstances, would have cleared up the matter. However, the kennedy family has clout there and the grand jury couldn't do other than decline to indict him.

Given the fact that the autopsy was avoided, there is reason to believe foul play was involved. What it might have been we shall never know, unless kennedy confesses before he dies.

-er

[lensue]

>That was Ted Kennedy's explanation in 1967<

Well at least he knew enough and there were many others who ran to whittington's aide! Dealing with the press was another matter. Regards, Len

[earler]

Most interesting! You speak of kennedy's explanation in 1967. About what? Poor mary jo died in 1969.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

If If If If... if John Wilkes Booth was a French conspirator who wanted to destabilize the American government, if the Russians had Kennedy assassinated, if Saddam had weapons of mass destruction... we can make anything out of if.

[earler]

Given the circumstances and the cover-up, is it really surprising there are grounds for suspicion? Booth ruined a nice evening at the theatre and was immediately apprehended. No cover up. As for saddam hussein, his hamstringing the inspectors were grounds for suspicions concerning wmd. In fact, it isn't impossible he wasn't told himself and that his courtesans told him about all the wonderful weapons they were developing. We may learn the truth some day. Alas, given the cover-up of the chappaquidik business, we are most unlikely ever to learn the truth.

-er

[lensue]

>How about this <

Ray and now there's this circulating around the internet!

"Bush Fails To Prevent East Coast Blizzard - Minorities Hit Hardest

As President Bush and his staff sit comfortably in the White House, the snow continued to pile up on the many poor and African American victims in the DC area who could not afford to get out of town or to safety in Florida. Crucial supplies of blankets, hot cocoa, popcorn, gold jewelry, plasma TVs, Colt 45 and dark rum -- so essential to surviving the stress of any major snowstorm ay in stores undelivered.

"Where is the government? I need my sidewalk shoveled so I can getout to buy my danged lottery tickets!" said one DC resident from his living room. "Why are we wasting money in Iraq when
we could be spending it here on me?" Progressive blogs blasted the President for hisinaction. "We find the timing terribly suspicious -- just as the Domestic Spying hearings kick into high gear, what happens? A major northeast Blizzard. Why now?" wrote one blogger.

Hearings into the Blizzards' effect on hearings are almost a certainty. Howard Dean has suggested he will call for an investigation once his new medications kick in and John Kerry took a break from his winter ski vacation in Aspen to call for new legislation outlawing snowstorms. "The Republican Congress has dropped the ball once again. I have always been a staunch supporter
of anti-snow legislation, except for certain locations where I ski. Snow has no business on our roads and the President and Congress know that."

Calls for impeachment over "SnowGate" as some are calling it already are mounting as deeply as the snow itself, and what will be discovered underneath will prove to have a truly chilling effect on the Republicans, as the inevitable thaw proceeds.

This just in....More breaking news...... Jesse Jackson wants an investigation as to why snow is ALWAYS white. It is reported that Dick Cheney has stock in Tru-Value Hardware. Do you have any idea how many SNOW SHOVELS they sold today to the unsuspecting consumer? The American people will demand to know why FEMA has been so late in reacting to this storm. THEY KNEW IT WAS COMING! And
yet they failed to have crews in place to fix the electricity as soon as it went off.

It just shows that Bush and the Republicans justdon't care about the people in the Northeast. The Senate needs to investigate this with administration personnel under oath. We speculate that the great junior senator from NY has opened the doors of her Long Island mansion to all of the
heatless poor of her neighborhood and is busy baking cookies for them while her husband
applies body heat to the nearly frozen teen-aged girls." Regards, Len

[Judy G. Russell]

Is it surprising? No. Is it silly to keep bringing it up by way of comparison every time a Republican does anything wrong or foolish? You betcha. Two wrongs don't make a right, and a Republican shouldn't get a pass just because sometime earlier a Democrat also did something wrong.

[Lindsey]

Given the fact that the autopsy was avoided, there is reason to believe foul play was involved. What it might have been we shall never know, unless kennedy confesses before he dies.
And if he doesn't confess because he has nothing to confess, then in your mind he is still guilty.

And you guys accuse the left of being too quick to believe there's a conspiracy afoot...

--Lindsey

[earler]

Isn't he at least guilty of negligent homicide? Is there no punishment for such behavior?

-er

[lensue]

>And you guys accuse the left of being too quick to believe there's a conspiracy afoot<

Lindsey, well in your heart of hearts what do YOU think happened? Regards, Len

[Wayne Scott]

Now that would have been classic.

Can you imagine what would have happened had this been Gore, or Clinton, or Kerry who had accidently shot someone?

--Lindsey
I don't have to imagine. I know that you would be making every possible excuse for those precious idols having had an accident.

Sneering in Sonoma

[Wayne Scott]

Yeah, they'd have had a field day. And now the same people who would never have let that story die (just as they are still flogging Chappaquiddick 40 years later) are saying, "Let's move on" ...

--Lindsey
Mary Jo can't flog anything.
Negligent homicide? I think so.

[Wayne Scott]

You're making me nostalgic for Dan Quayle!

(Do you think Bush chose him for VP because he saw him as a second son?)

--Lindsey
Excellent, Sarah! One of your best!

Appreciative in Asia

[Wayne Scott]

Talk about the gang that couldn't shoot straight... (The opportunities for puns here are almost unlimited...)
I believe that gang were inhabitants of your adopted state, weren't they?

[Wayne Scott]

With the way lawyers are regarded these days, it's a wonder he only pulled the trigger once...
You remember my son, the piano player, don't you?

[Wayne Scott]

Which was, I believe, rendered by the standby medical team that follows Cheney like a shadow.

--Lindsey
Does this somehow suggest he DIDN'T get medical care?
Even your warped mind can't postulate that.

[Judy G. Russell]

Actually, at that time, when a death occurred in connection with a motor vehicle, there often wasn't any punishment or only minimal punishment for what we today commonly regard as at least involuntary manslaughter. It's only been in recent years that there has been a concerted effort to treat seriously behavior behind the wheel and connected with the operation of a motor vehicle. Drunk driving at that time was often a misdemeanor or petty offense, even when a death resulted. We've come a long way, baby.

[Judy G. Russell]

Nope, that gang was in New York, not New Jersey. (The movie was about the Joey Gallo gang.)

[Judy G. Russell]

Yep, he and I (and Ralph) all play the same sort of piano...

[earler]

Perhaps. But, the lack of an autopsy? Scarcely standard procedure. Further, if someone did die through negligence there was usually some action taken, an indictment and conviction, even if it meant a lesser penalty than today.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

Actually, negligence by itself usually is not (and back then usually was not) grounds for criminal action. It could easily have supported a civil cause of action, but more than simple negligence is generally required for criminal culpability.

[Lindsey]

Lindsey, well in your heart of hearts what do YOU think happened? Regards, Len
I certainly don't think there was any foul play.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

Isn't he at least guilty of negligent homicide? Is there no punishment for such behavior?
This is the meaning of "rule of law," Earle. You can't punish someone for something you think they might be guilty of. You have to be able to make your case in court to the satisfaction of a judge or a group of 12 jurors.

--Lindsey

Later: I like Judy's answer better, but she's in a better position to know what the relevant law was in 1967 than I am.

[Lindsey]

Does this somehow suggest he DIDN'T get medical care?

Say what?

--Lindsey

[earler]

Since justice was thwarted because there was no investigation, no autopsy, it was impossible to try kennedy. It was the state of massachusetts, and since both his surviving brothers had recently been assassinated he enjoyed some public sympathy.

As for the relevant law in 1967, well she was killed in 1969.

-er

[Lindsey]

As for the relevant law in 1967, well she was killed in 1969.
Oh, excuse me. 1969, then.

--Lindsey

[RayB (France)]

From Ray Bell


"I'd rather hunt with Dick Cheney
"Than ride with Ted Kennedy."

<sneering and awaiting torrents of abuse from the Usual Suspects.

:)

Going back to the original name of this thread, see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4747254.stm

Hard to argue with.

[Judy G. Russell]

Ain't no doubt about it -- the Democrats generally haven't a clue how to capitalize on the blunders of the Bush Administration.