Winter heating bills... oy!!!

[Judy G. Russell]

Okay... what's everybody doing about the upcoming winter heating bills? I just checked with my natural gas company, and bills for November will be about 60-65% higher than for last November.

I have a programmable thermostat and will turn the heat down to about 55-58 during the day. I will use an electric blanket at night with the temp turned down as well. Wear a sweater. Gets the cats to wear sweaters. Maybe a space heater for the computer room so I can even keep the heat down when I'm home?

What else? This ain't fun. I like warm and do NOT like the idea of having to keep the house chilly just to get by...

[Jeff]

These folks make the best programmable thermostats that I'm aware of; unlike others they have 4 settings a day, 7 days a week. Most only have 2 settings on the weekends. They also make programmables for 220v electric baseboard heat, and I think they are the only company that does.

http://www.luxproducts.com/

- Jeff

[Judy G. Russell]

Mine is a Honeywell VisionPro. I can set each day (or a bunch at once) and for four settings each day (wakeup, leave for work, return, bedtime). It's easy to override as well for days when I get home earlier or wake up earlier, etc.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

Okay... what's everybody doing about the upcoming winter heating bills?Before I worry asbout heating BILLS I have to worry about a new heating PLANT. Just got word that my super-duper long-lasting stainless-steel and copper boiler, installed five years ago for $2700, needs about $7000 in repairs.

Or I could buy a newer, more super-duper, boiler for $9000.

[Judy G. Russell]

Before I worry asbout heating BILLS I have to worry about a new heating PLANT. Just got word that my super-duper long-lasting stainless-steel and copper boiler, installed five years ago for $2700, needs about $7000 in repairs. Or I could buy a newer, more super-duper, boiler for $9000.OUCH!!! That hurts, big time. I've been through a few boiler replacements in my day, but never after only five years!!! And, of course, the warranty ran out what, last week?

[Dan in Saint Louis]

And, of course, the warranty ran out what, last week?Long story. Had boiler problems from the git-go, installer tried to cure by replacing gas valves. Gas valve are no longer the one supplied by boiler manufacturer, no warranty. Installer closed his business and retired.

I'm working with the local distributor for the boiler to exercise his clout with them to at least buy back part of the boiler, since I can document that it did not work right when installed.

[Judy G. Russell]

Long story. Had boiler problems from the git-go, installer tried to cure by replacing gas valves. Gas valve are no longer the one supplied by boiler manufacturer, no warranty. Installer closed his business and retired. I'm working with the local distributor for the boiler to exercise his clout with them to at least buy back part of the boiler, since I can document that it did not work right when installed.Ouch, squared. That's even worse. Hope everything works out, Dan. This is quite an expensive foul-up.

[Lindsey]

What else? This ain't fun. I like warm and do NOT like the idea of having to keep the house chilly just to get by...
I am very glad at this point that I didn't opt for gas utilities when they were installing gas lines in my neighborhood some years ago. I'm all electric--I have a heat pump, an electric water heater, and electric appliances--and they're saying electricity on average will have the smallest percentage increase over the winter.

As for your question, here are some suggestions from Virginia's State Corporation Commission web site, at least some of which you already appear to have covered:

* Keep your thermostat at 70 degrees during the heating season.
* Make sure doors and windows are tightly closed. Caulk and weather strip to seal any gaps.
* Install storm or thermal windows and doors.
* Close chimney flues and seal unused fireplaces.
* Change or clean your furnace filter to keep your heating system safe and efficient.
* Cover window air conditioning units during the winter.
* Turn off optional or decorative appliances, such as natural gas fireplaces and outdoor lights.
* Install programmable thermostats.


I already keep my house pretty cool; I don't have a programmable thermostat, but during the winter, I keep the thermostat set between 65 and 68, and I just pile on the blankets and sweaters.

I have a wood stove, but after using that for a couple of seasons, I decided (a) it's too messy (not just ashes and wood fragments, but bugs from the logs that end up all through the house); (b) when you most need the wood for burning, it's either frozen or damp; and (c) it's hard to regulate the heat, and the house always ends up uncomfortably hot. But--you might want to think about installing a wood stove where your fireplace is. Not a great thing to have in your living room, but it might be better than sitting there shivering, or lying in bed with a nose that feels like a block of ice...

Jeez,this is reminding me of the late 1970s. <sigh>

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I don't think I'm going to do the wood stove bit quite yet... I will do some serious weatherstripping this winter and try an electric space heater for the computer room, which is basically where I live when I'm home.

[earler]

Wood stoves nowadays are quite efficient, but there is a problem of pollution if too many are in an semi-urban area. I use one in my office in the country. Some of the heat produced is fed up to the living room, where we have a huge fireplace, too. But, my wood is free and we are in the real country there.

You shouldn't be getting bugs along with the wood you buy. We sell several thousand cords of wood each year and none have bugs, mainly because the wood is aged for 2 to 3 years, necessary to have wood that will burn well and provide heat. If wood is too old it won't provide much heat. Next there is the question of what wood is used. We sell ash, oak, acacia, hornbeam, beech, etc., all good wood for burning and which won't muck up a chimney too quickly. Change your wood supplier!

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

I was always enormously amused by the different wood consumption in stoves operated by my mother (then in her 60s) and my grandmother (then in her 80s). My grandmother would make a cord of wood last most of the winter. My mother would go through a cord in a month. Both homes and both stoves were roughly equivalent in size... but boy did my grandmother know how to control a wood stove...

[earler]

I should think your grandmother used better wood. An awful lot depends on the wood burnt. Of course, how fast you let it burn is important, too. Unlike a fireplace, a good wood stove can be controlled very well.

-er

[Lindsey]

You shouldn't be getting bugs along with the wood you buy.
The bugs don't come with the wood as bought; they just explore it while it's sitting outside and hitch a ride inside when you bring it in.

And in any case: Europe doesn't have the insect problem that the US--particularly the southern US--has. In Europe, you can get away with not having screens on the windows. Not here.

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I should think your grandmother used better wood.Considering they lived within a mile of each other and used the same wood suppliers (my uncle and cousins), I think that's a bit unlikely... The fact is, my grandmother was much better at working the controls than my mother was. Simple as that.

[Lindsey]

I don't think I'm going to do the wood stove bit quite yet... I will do some serious weatherstripping this winter and try an electric space heater for the computer room, which is basically where I live when I'm home.
Do you have a gas water heater? One of the other things I heard suggested to save energy was to install a low-flow showerhead. By cutting the amount of water you use in the shower, it cuts the amount of water that has to be heated to replace it.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

Do you have a gas water heater? One of the other things I heard suggested to save energy was to install a low-flow showerhead. By cutting the amount of water you use in the shower, it cuts the amount of water that has to be heated to replace it.

--Lindsey

Lindsey.

Yes, but although I have French ancestors, I'm too American to give up my daily shower!

Another idea I saw was to install ceramic heater ceiling fans. Cut your thermostat and use the fans to push down the hot air that rises from the radiators and from the fan itself.

[Lindsey]

Yes, but although I have French ancestors, I'm too American to give up my daily shower!
I didn't say you had to give up your shower, just restrict the water flow a bit!

I have a ceiling fan in the living room, but I turn it OFF when the weather gets cool because it makes me feel colder, not warmer. But the vents from the heat pump are in the ceiling anyway--and believe me, you don't want to sit underneath them unless you're bundled up warm!

--Lindsey

Oh, wait--you were saying that these ceiling fans are heaters themselves? Hmmmm.

[ndebord]

I didn't say you had to give up your shower, just restrict the water flow a bit!

I have a ceiling fan in the living room, but I turn it OFF when the weather gets cool because it makes me feel colder, not warmer. But the vents from the heat pump are in the ceiling anyway--and believe me, you don't want to sit underneath them unless you're bundled up warm!

--Lindsey

Oh, wait--you were saying that these ceiling fans are heaters themselves? Hmmmm.


Lindsey,

As I understand it, expensive ceiling fans. One post about it here... Have not done good research on this option yet.

http://www.fanheatlight.com/

[earler]

We do have insects here in europe, too, just not as many mosquitoes or black flies as you have. But, those flying beasts don't infest wood. Insects will get into wood if it is allowed to rot on damp ground. We cut our trees so that the trunks are sold to manufacturers or construction companies, then we cut up the tops so they are 1 metre long. These are placed in piles along the roads in the forest to age, i.e. dry, for a couple of years. I can appreciate the fact that a lot of land in the south is marshy. In such cases the wood should be protected from the wetness of the earth, using polyethylene sheets or corrugated pvc, which can be used over and over again.

Diseased trees will attract insects, so they are perforce felled, then destroyed. They have no value whatsoever. Healthy trees don't attract insects and timber doesn't rot unless allowed to do so, in which case the insects will arrive.

Other than those big operations for pulp wood, I find that forest management in the states is poor, often non existant. Drive up the merritt parkway and you can see how there is no management whatsoever.

-er

[Dan in Saint Louis]

The fact is, my grandmother was much better at working the controls than my mother was. Simple as that.The key to efficient operation of a wood stove is to cut the air flow as much as possible. The wood will be glowing, with only a hint of flame flickering in places.

This both extends the length of the heating session AND minimizes the amount of room air that gets sucked into the stove, and eventually up the flue -- and which must be replaced by cold air drawn indoors through cracks around windows and doors.

[earler]

Yes, air flow is most important, but so is the quality of the wood. If it burns too fast and/or generates little heat, you are in trouble.

-er

[MollyM/CA]

I keep looking at the radiating panels for the computer room. It seems like a good idea but they look like such hunks of crap. Maybe if I fastened some greenhouse heating cable to a piece of plywood? It's my legs that freeze --I think they froze into solid blood clots last winter, for which I'm paying with blood thinners for the rest of my life and apparently chronic DVTs, though after a year things seem to be getting better.

This makes me think that it's a good idea to not let yourself freeze at the computer in any sense --maybe if I'd set an alarm to take a walk once an hour all this would never have happened. And if I'd had some heat and/or leg warmers...

Maybe if I wrapped the greenhouse heating cables around my legs? I did have an electric blanket in there for a while but was always getting tangled up in all the cords.

[MollyM/CA]

New wood stoves sold in CA have to have all kinds of devices to clean up the exhaust insofar as it's possible at the home-stove level. You might know --catalytic converters?

We've never had anything but wood heat except for space heaters in the bathroom, and that's true of many of the farmers and older suburbanites around us. Our pollution problems since the clean air act (which prevented the fertilizer and glass factories and others from putting tons of particles just the right size to make fog and to aerosol a lot of nasty chemicals into Valley lungs) are recent and are from the cars (with a huge proportion of SUVs) of those commuting four or five hours a day to and from our supposedly cheaper housing.

Those fallen and rotting trees are essential to forest (as opposed to short-term timber farm) health. They provide a nursery not only for hundreds of species of wildlife but for replacement trees and vital understory plants, and as they rot they hold and enrich the soil. The highly managed forests of Europe may look neat, but they are essentially a form of unsustainable agriculture and are dying.

[Dan in Saint Louis]

You might know --catalytic converters?Actually, yes. Mine has had a catalytic converter for over two decades. It raises the temperature of the flue gases to over 1000F and burns off most of the pollutants.

[Jeff]

Do you have a gas water heater? One of the other things I heard suggested to save energy was to install a low-flow showerhead. By cutting the amount of water you use in the shower, it cuts the amount of water that has to be heated to replace it.

--Lindsey

The usual low-flow showerhead has the added advantage of never running out of hot water in that most water heaters will heat that amount of water for as long as you want. We won't discuss how that defeats the intended purpose..<g>

- Jeff

[earler]

Molly, you speak like those greens, who keep saying that forests should be allowed to grow and decay without intervention. They are wrong.

Trees need space to grow, especially some species like the beech. If you don't cull trees you get stunted growth. Allowing trees to fall and rot is also a poor idea. First of all, a big, old tree might bring down healthy trees with it. If you leave the tree to rot it isn't all that valuable for the ecosystem. The fallen leaves and dying undergrowth are more than sufficient. If not, you'd not have a growing and healthy forest.

Our forest management is certainly not timber farming. First of all, this would be illegal. We have to present a management plan to the authorities, who wouldn't permit anything like clear cutting. We have trees that are 200 years, even older. Our new plantings won't be cut in our lifetime, perhaps not for 80 years or longer. I think you are confusing enlightened forest management with the slash and burn methods used in tropical rain forests, and, alas, in africa.

You should realize that forest have been reconstituted in france since the last war and there are now more trees than in the past. In the usa, forests re-grew during the 20th century. They had been decimated during the 19th century as the population increased and the wood was used for heating and cooking. Unfortunately, what has grown in most places are dense areas of stunted growth, with trees that are of little value. Naturally, I am not speaking of the tree farms that are planted for pulp wood, largely in the southeast.

-er

[Judy G. Russell]

Yep, gas water heater, but I already installed a low-flow showerhead some time ago. And (sigh) I just got a call from my homeowner's insurance company telling me they've just revalued my home for insurance purposes so my costs are about to #$%@ skyrocket there as well.

Sigh...

[Judy G. Russell]

Maybe if I wrapped the greenhouse heating cables around my legs? I did have an electric blanket in there for a while but was always getting tangled up in all the cords.That's why I'm thinking about a small space heater that I could put on the floor close to where I sit and aimed at me and NOT at the computer (heating that up is not in the game plan here considering what heat does to computer components!).

[Judy G. Russell]

The key to efficient operation of a wood stove is to cut the air flow as much as possible. The wood will be glowing, with only a hint of flame flickering in places.Sigh... I'm sure my grandmother knew all of that without even being aware of what she knew. Me, I just want nice safe simple CHEAP central heat. Oh well, three out of four ain't too bad...

[Dan in Saint Louis]

That's why I'm thinking about a small space heaterMy brilliant brother reminds me to heat PEOPLE, not AIR. Think radiant heat, not blowing hot air around; and you will be more comfortable for less money.

[Lindsey]

As I understand it, expensive ceiling fans. One post about it here... Have not done good research on this option yet.
Yeah, the "ceramic" part alone sounded pricey...

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

I'm so sorry we don't do things here to your satisfaction, Earle.

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

The usual low-flow showerhead has the added advantage of never running out of hot water in that most water heaters will heat that amount of water for as long as you want. We won't discuss how that defeats the intended purpose..<g>
Good point! ;) (But oh, it would be so nice to shower in the winter without having to worry about the hot water running out before all the shampoo was out of my hair...)

--Lindsey

[Lindsey]

And (sigh) I just got a call from my homeowner's insurance company telling me they've just revalued my home for insurance purposes so my costs are about to #$%@ skyrocket there as well.
I was about to say "When it rains, it pours," but you know that on several levels already...

--Lindsey

[Judy G. Russell]

I was about to say "When it rains, it pours," but you know that on several levels already...ROFL!!! Vooba vooba... how big is a cubit...

[Judy G. Russell]

My brilliant brother reminds me to heat PEOPLE, not AIR. Think radiant heat, not blowing hot air around; and you will be more comfortable for less money.So ask your brilliant brother what he recommends for a small (8x10) room with a computer on the floor and a chilly user sitting in front of it!

[Dan in Saint Louis]

So ask your brilliant brother what he recommends for a small (8x10) room with a computer on the floor and a chilly user sitting in front of it!Those small glowing-wire electric space heaters from the hardware store are pretty effective. The little fan isn't really to blow air around the room, it is to keep the heating element cool enough to avoid fires.

Of course embedded-element walls and floors would be nice, but I haven't seen any of those for $30........

[Jeff]

Good point! ;) (But oh, it would be so nice to shower in the winter without having to worry about the hot water running out before all the shampoo was out of my hair...)

--Lindsey

Go for a low-flow, and realize that such does not mean low pressure. Actually by restricting the volume it could produce slightly higher pressure. Good for shampoo, and sore backs.

- Jeff

[Lindsey]

Go for a low-flow, and realize that such does not mean low pressure.
¡Exactamente! I've been telling myself for a long time I needed to replace the showerhead. But I want a hand-held one. Dunno if those come in low-flow varieties or not, but I'll have to look.

--Lindsey

[Mike]

I've been telling myself for a long time I needed to replace the showerhead. But I want a hand-held one. Dunno if those come in low-flow varieties or not, but I'll have to look.
Try to find any sort of showerhead in 2005 that is NOT low-flow, including hand-held ones.

Well, maybe the $1.99 specials... <shrug>

[fhaber]

Here on the fifteenth floor, with only 20' head from the water tank to the faucets, I spend a lot of time taking a miniature countersink to the **built-in** flow restrictors on every item. Otherwise, it's dribble city.

You in the high-pressure zone have no worries, even at $1.98. I have to go to Mexico for a free and clear shower head, and to Canada for a decent-sized toilet tank.

Fegh.

[Lindsey]

Try to find any sort of showerhead in 2005 that is NOT low-flow, including hand-held ones.

Well, maybe the $1.99 specials... <shrug>
You can tell I have never actually gone out shopping for them...

--Lindsey

[earler]

Frank, I've never understood all those water tanks on buildings in manhattan. I doubt there are any on office buildings that go up to over 50 stories quite commonly. And, I don't see them here in paris either, though we don't have many very high buildings.

I assume your building has one of the tanks on the roof, and since you are on the 15th floor, that is almost the top floor. In that case, why is pressure so low for you compared to someone living say on the 10th floor?

-er

[fhaber]

It's tradition. Most are made of cypress or cedar, barrel-staved in the old manner with heavy iron hoops. After a bit, they accumulate a nice green internal coating of slime. The combination of the wood and the slime is supposed to be quite naturally anti-biotic, in the original sense.

Most modern office buildings are still gravity-fed, but the tanks are now stainless, and must be cleaned much more often than the wood ones. Some are pressurized with an air pump arrangement.

The mains pressure in Manhattan does not reach above the 7th floor or so. Buildings >75ft. are required to have tanks.

The reason the pressure here is low is that the "head," or relative elevation between the tank fill line and me is small.

The tanks are also regulated by the fire department. The residential water outlet is typically only 2/3-3/4 of the way down the side. At the very bottom is the fire standpipe outlet, insuring that there's always part of a tank to fight a fire. The pumper engines and hook-and-ladders only reach to the seventh floor as well, so this reserve is really critical.

[earler]

Interesting. Thank you for the explanation.

-er

[Jeff]

¡Exactamente! I've been telling myself for a long time I needed to replace the showerhead. But I want a hand-held one. Dunno if those come in low-flow varieties or not, but I'll have to look.

--Lindsey

My handheld is low flow, and simply attached in place of the existing showerhead. About $30 as I remember, at Home Depot. Ummm, also the individual nozzles of the showerhead itself are rubber; if any of them start to plug from calk buildup or whatever simply run a finger around them a time or two and that will break it lose.

- Jeff

[Lindsey]

My handheld is low flow, and simply attached in place of the existing showerhead. About $30 as I remember, at Home Depot.
Oh, that sounds good!

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

You can tell I have never actually gone out shopping for them...

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

I've been carting around my old, old showerhead from Apt to Apt, house to house now for more years than I care to remember. I remember testing out a potential apt and learning that it had the then new and mandatory low flow showerhead. I promptly went out to the hardware store to buy an old one and was told they only sold new ones. So I bought their "new and improved" model and put it in the Apt I was leaving! Kept my good one and it still works fine. A few cleanings along the way, but none of that mist instead of water flow stuff for me!

[Lindsey]

So I bought their "new and improved" model and put it in the Apt I was leaving! Kept my good one and it still works fine. A few cleanings along the way, but none of that mist instead of water flow stuff for me!
LOL!! That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard!

Actually, as Jeff said, "low flow" does not have to mean "low pressure," and it's low pressure (whatever the flow) that would drive me crazy.

--Lindsey

[ndebord]

LOL!! That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard!

Actually, as Jeff said, "low flow" does not have to mean "low pressure," and it's low pressure (whatever the flow) that would drive me crazy.

--Lindsey

Lindsey,

Here in Bayonne, low flow and low pressure are a reality. The main watermain that comes into town through Kearny broke last year and instead of fixing it, they rerouted through 2 separate, smaller pipes and it ain't returned to normal. Or perhaps I should accept that the new reality of "It is, what it is" is now the norm.

If I had to use a regular showerhead now with our water flow/pressure, I'd go nuts...not to mention my hair would rapidly achieve that dishwater look!

[Mike]

Even with higher pressure, I find some of the low-flow showerheads restrict the pressure sufficiently not to allow a shower that actually rinses the soap off my body. While I like the rainfall feeling when I'm not in a hurry, but if I'm trying to take a quick shower before I get ready for work, I really need to have sufficient pressure.

If the restricter is plastic, a little knife does the trick. Otherwise, I find a pair of pliers allows me to remove the washer or bend the metal that's in the way.

[Jeff]

Even with higher pressure, I find some of the low-flow showerheads restrict the pressure sufficiently not to allow a shower that actually rinses the soap off my body. While I like the rainfall feeling when I'm not in a hurry, but if I'm trying to take a quick shower before I get ready for work, I really need to have sufficient pressure.

If the restricter is plastic, a little knife does the trick. Otherwise, I find a pair of pliers allows me to remove the washer or bend the metal that's in the way.

Good grief. I thought "low-flow" was 2 gallons a minute, which I think mine is and it's not like a gentle rainfall. But then whatever restriction there is is apparently in the design of the showerhead nozzles, not a "blockage" in the line before that.

[Mike]

Good grief. I thought "low-flow" was 2 gallons a minute, which I think mine is and it's not like a gentle rainfall. But then whatever restriction there is is apparently in the design of the showerhead nozzles, not a "blockage" in the line before that.
It depends on the design. I've "fixed" several that used some sort of washer or constrictor, made either of plastic or metal.

I have one friend that always carries pliers when he travels so he can "fix" the shower heads in hotels.

[Jeff]

It depends on the design. I've "fixed" several that used some sort of washer or constrictor, made either of plastic or metal.

I have one friend that always carries pliers when he travels so he can "fix" the shower heads in hotels.

Is it really that bad? Granted I haven't stayed in many motels since I came back, but none of them have required surgery in the shower. And all have been in the seriously drought stricken Southwest. There's something PC about no pressure?

[Lindsey]

Is it really that bad?
I've stayed at a couple of places where the water only trickled out of the showerhead, but most of them are OK so far as pressure is concerned. What really drives me crazy are the showerheads where the holes are all around the edge, so that you get a wide dry spot in the middle of the cone of water coming out of it.

--Lindsey

[Mike]

Is it really that bad? Granted I haven't stayed in many motels since I came back, but none of them have required surgery in the shower. And all have been in the seriously drought stricken Southwest. There's something PC about no pressure?
Personally, I've never had any problems, but that particular friend prefers a really strong shower, and is willing to take matters into his own hands. <shrug>

[RayB (France)]

I've stayed at a couple of places where the water only trickled out of the showerhead, but most of them are OK so far as pressure is concerned. What really drives me crazy are the showerheads where the holes are all around the edge, so that you get a wide dry spot in the middle of the cone of water coming out of it.

--Lindsey

Aw, just skip the shower, marinate in Estée Lauder, like so many women do, and nobody will know the difference.

[Lindsey]

Aw, just skip the shower, marinate in Estée Lauder, like so many women do, and nobody will know the difference.
My grandmother used Estée Lauder. And I know women here who do seem to have marinated themselves in whatever scent is popular, but I prefer something a little more subtle.

Besides, all the perfume in the world is not as refreshing as 5 minutes under a stream of hot water.

--Lindsey

[RayB (France)]

My grandmother used Estée Lauder. And I know women here who do seem to have marinated themselves in whatever scent is popular, but I prefer something a little more subtle.

Besides, all the perfume in the world is not as refreshing as 5 minutes under a stream of hot water.

--Lindsey

No way to argue about that!