[Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence

[Daniel Widdis]

I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
their grammar for this question:

"What makes me me?"

(The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
themselves.)

The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
curious if you have other suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

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[Efrem Mallach]

I lean toward italics - or, if the medium permits, bold. I think quotes are overused in situations like this. The fact that I overuse them myself doesn’t change that.

That said, we have at least one or two people here with real editing cred (and credentials). Let’s see what they say.

Efrem

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Daniel Widdis <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net> wrote:
>
> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct their grammar for this question:
>
> "What makes me me?"
>
> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely themselves.)
>
> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm curious if you have other suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan

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[Daniel Widdis]

Italics, bold, underline, font size, font color are all fair game.

This is one of several bullet points, though, so it shouldn't stick out
too much....

On 7/30/15 3:14 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> I lean toward italics - or, if the medium permits, bold. I think quotes are overused in situations like this. The fact that I overuse them myself doesn’t change that.
>
> That said, we have at least one or two people here with real editing cred (and credentials). Let’s see what they say.
>
> Efrem

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[stevedixon46@gmail.com]

I think you leave it just as is. It's one of those sentences that is not instantly clear but it is the only way to write it. I say "No comma."

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Daniel Widdis <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net> wrote:
>
> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct their grammar for this question:
>
> "What makes me me?"
>
> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely themselves.)
>
> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm curious if you have other suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan
>
> --
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[Paul Keating]

Advice for punctuating this sentence: Don't. It's fine as it is.

Punctuation is more rhetorical than semantic, and it isn't suited to clarifying this sort of philosophical question.

Don't use italics: that now mostly signals that you are talking about the word as an object of discussion, as in

Temple, in Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young man, claimed that ballocks is the only English dual number.

You can use a comma, but that strikes me as self-conscious and stately. Quotes may come across as less ponderous: What makes me "me"? And then again maybe not.

My advice remains, Don't.

P



> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
> their grammar for this question:

> "What makes me me?"

> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
> themselves.)

> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
> answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
> quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
> leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
> curious if you have other suggestions?

> Thanks in advance,
> Dan




--
Paul Keating
The Hague

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[Dodi Schultz]

I'm one of those folks with credentials. I lean Efrem's way: Use italics.
No comma.

—Dodi


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


On 7/30/2015 6:14 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> I lean toward italics - or, if the medium permits, bold. I think quotes are overused in situations like this. The fact that I overuse them myself doesn’t change that.
>
> That said, we have at least one or two people here with real editing cred (and credentials). Let’s see what they say.
>
> Efrem
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Daniel Widdis <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net> wrote:
>>
>> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct their grammar for this question:
>>
>> "What makes me me?"
>>
>> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely themselves.)
>>
>> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm curious if you have other suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dan

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[Judy Madnick]

I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely wouldn't use a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.

Just a thought....

Judy



Original message
From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>
To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence

I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
their grammar for this question:

"What makes me me?"

(The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
themselves.)

The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
curious if you have other suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

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[Dodi Schultz]

Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me". (No, I don't
advocate Dan's using quotes; but they're correct here.)


On 7/30/2015 9:20 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
> I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I
> am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely wouldn't use
> a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use
> italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.
> Just a thought....
> Judy
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Original message
> From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
> Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
> Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>
> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
> their grammar for this question:
>
> "What makes me me?"
>
> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
> themselves.)
>
> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
> answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
> quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
> leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
> curious if you have other suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan
>
> --
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> "Dixonary" group.
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[Judy Madnick]

Perhaps it would depend on how you say it. If anything, I would say it slowly so that it doesn't sound like "me-me." Somehow I don't feel the emphasis.. And I do agree with the quotation marks around "me" in your sentence, but I would put the period inside the closing quotation mark -- American English versus British English.



Original message
From: "Dodi Schultz" <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net>
To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
Dated: 7/30/2015 9:28:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence

Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me". (No, I don't
advocate Dan's using quotes; but they're correct here.)


On 7/30/2015 9:20 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
> I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I
> am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely wouldn't use
> a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use
> italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.
> Just a thought....
> Judy
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Original message
> From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
> Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
> Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>
> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
> their grammar for this question:
>
> "What makes me me?"
>
> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
> themselves.)
>
> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
> answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
> quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
> leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
> curious if you have other suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dixonary" group.
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[Dodi Schultz]

Yes, of course, in US English the period goes inside, which was (as you
probably know) a convention evidently begun by typographers who thought it
looked neater that way. Which it does. Although it's not really logical.
I've fallen into the habit of putting it outside in personal notes,
probably as a result of hanging out in the English Only forum at
WordReference.com (whence, BTW, Steve G and Efrem). You (and other
Dixonarians) might want to have a look.


=============================


On 7/30/2015 9:39 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
> Perhaps it would depend on how you say it. If anything, I would say it
> slowly so that it doesn't sound like "me-me." Somehow I don't feel the
> emphasis. And I do agree with the quotation marks around "me" in your
> sentence, but I would put the period inside the closing quotation mark --
> American English versus British English.


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Original message
> From: "Dodi Schultz"
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
> Dated: 7/30/2015 9:28:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>
> Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me". (No, I don't
> advocate Dan's using quotes; but they're correct here.)


>
>
> On 7/30/2015 9:20 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
> > I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I
> > am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely wouldn't use
> > a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use
> > italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.
> > Just a thought....
> > Judy
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Original message
> > From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net <mailto:widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>>
> > To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com; <mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;>
> > Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
> > Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
> >
> > I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
> > their grammar for this question:
> >
> > "What makes me me?"
> >
> > (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
> > themselves.)
> >
> > The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
> > answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
> > quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
> > leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
> > curious if you have other suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Dan
> >
> >

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[Daniel Widdis]

Getting OT the OT here, I've taken to only putting the period inside the
quotes if the whole sentence is inside the quotes. Is that the British
version?

And back to the original OT: it seems unanimous to lose the comma
provided to me in the original. I've tried italics, bold, and even
underline, and none of them look good in the font on the slide. So I'm
going with the bare bones "me me" version, which should make some of you
happy...

On 7/30/15 7:11 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
> Yes, of course, in US English the period goes inside, which was (as
> you probably know) a convention evidently begun by typographers who
> thought it looked neater that way. Which it does. Although it's not
> really logical. I've fallen into the habit of putting it outside in
> personal notes, probably as a result of hanging out in the English
> Only forum at WordReference.com (whence, BTW, Steve G and Efrem). You
> (and other Dixonarians) might want to have a look.
>
>
> =============================
>
>
> On 7/30/2015 9:39 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
>> Perhaps it would depend on how you say it. If anything, I would say
>> it slowly so that it doesn't sound like "me-me." Somehow I don't feel
>> the emphasis. And I do agree with the quotation marks around "me" in
>> your sentence, but I would put the period inside the closing
>> quotation mark -- American English versus British English.
>
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Original message
>> From: "Dodi Schultz"
>> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
>> Dated: 7/30/2015 9:28:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>>
>> Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me". (No, I
>> don't
>> advocate Dan's using quotes; but they're correct here.)
>
>
>>
>>
>> On 7/30/2015 9:20 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
>> > I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I
>> > am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely
>> wouldn't use
>> > a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use
>> > italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.
>> > Just a thought....
>> > Judy
>> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Original message
>> > From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net
>> <mailto:widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>>
>> > To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com; <mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;>
>> > Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
>> > Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>> >
>> > I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
>> > their grammar for this question:
>> >
>> > "What makes me me?"
>> >
>> > (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
>> > themselves.)
>> >
>> > The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
>> > answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
>> > quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
>> > leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
>> > curious if you have other suggestions?
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance,
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>

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[Jim Hart]

I'm with the as-is crowd.

I know some would insert a comma simply to indicate a pause in speech, but
that's not what punctuation is about.

There is perhaps a case for italics to indicate emphasis but again that's
more to show vocal stress than something grammatical.

And I don't like quotes- nothing is being quoted and nor are you signifying
the use of the word as a thing as distinct from what it signifies. (There's
a more academic term for that but it doesn't come to mind.) Besides it
might mark you as someone who thinks quotes are another way of showing
emphasis and you wouldn't want that - nearly as bad as an apostrophe before
a plural s.

Be brave. Leave it as is. There is no ambiguity and if on first glance "me
me" [note use of quotes!] makes your reader pause for a moment then so much
the better.

Jim


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[Jim Hart]

Dodi,

> Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me".

Just because you would adjust your speech doesn't mean you have to flag
that for the reader with italics. This isn't a teleprompter. Most of us
adjust our vocal stress and intonation constantly without needing any help.

Jim


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[Jim Hart]

Dan:

> I've taken to only putting the period inside the quotes if the whole
sentence is inside the quotes. Is that the British version?

Yes that is the British version. Or it would be if you used a full stop
not a period.

The British version requires a moment of two of analysis to decide which
part is being punctuated. Sometime the both the outer sentence and the
inner quote are both being terminated, so to be strictly logical you would
have two full stops separated by a closing quote, but thankfully no one
does that.

Jim.




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[Dodi Schultz]

I think that not differentiating the second "me" in any way is going to
look like a mistake. Or a stutter.

In A to your Q: Yes, that's pretty much the BE version; what goes in quotes
is what's quoted.


=========================


On 7/30/2015 10:47 PM, Daniel Widdis wrote:
> Getting OT the OT here, I've taken to only putting the period inside the
> quotes if the whole sentence is inside the quotes. Is that the British
> version?
>
> And back to the original OT: it seems unanimous to lose the comma
> provided to me in the original. I've tried italics, bold, and even
> underline, and none of them look good in the font on the slide. So I'm
> going with the bare bones "me me" version, which should make some of you
> happy...

==========================
>
> On 7/30/15 7:11 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>> Yes, of course, in US English the period goes inside, which was (as you
>> probably know) a convention evidently begun by typographers who thought
>> it looked neater that way. Which it does. Although it's not really
>> logical. I've fallen into the habit of putting it outside in personal
>> notes, probably as a result of hanging out in the English Only forum at
>> WordReference.com (whence, BTW, Steve G and Efrem). You (and other
>> Dixonarians) might want to have a look.
>>
>>
>> =============================
>>
>>
>> On 7/30/2015 9:39 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
>>> Perhaps it would depend on how you say it. If anything, I would say it
>>> slowly so that it doesn't sound like "me-me." Somehow I don't feel the
>>> emphasis. And I do agree with the quotation marks around "me" in your
>>> sentence, but I would put the period inside the closing quotation mark
>>> -- American English versus British English.
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Original message
>>> From: "Dodi Schultz"
>>> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
>>> Dated: 7/30/2015 9:28:55 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>>>
>>> Say it aloud to yourself, Judy. You'd stress the second "me". (No, I don't
>>> advocate Dan's using quotes; but they're correct here.)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/30/2015 9:20 PM, Judy Madnick wrote:
>>> > I would say, "What makes me me?" comparing it to "What makes me who I
>>> > am?" where "me" takes the place of "who I am." I definitely wouldn't use
>>> > a comma, and, to be honest, it would never have occurred to me to use
>>> > italics since I don't think of the second "me" as being emphasized.
>>> > Just a thought....
>>> > Judy
>>> >
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Original message
>>> > From: "Daniel Widdis" <widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net <mailto:widdis (AT) dixonary (DOT) net>>
>>> > To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com; <mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;>
>>> > Dated: 7/30/2015 5:45:58 PM
>>> > Subject: [Dixonary] OT: How to punctuate this sentence
>>> >
>>> > I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
>>> > their grammar for this question:
>>> >
>>> > "What makes me me?"
>>> >
>>> > (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
>>> > themselves.)
>>> >
>>> > The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
>>> > answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
>>> > quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
>>> > leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
>>> > curious if you have other suggestions?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks in advance,
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>

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[Tim B]

-------- Original Message --------
> Getting OT the OT here, I've taken to only putting the period inside the
> quotes if the whole sentence is inside the quotes. Is that the British
> version?

I'd certainly never put the period inside the quotes unless what is in the quotes is a complete
sentence, and I'm not sure I would even then. It's the period that marks the end of the sentence,
not the closing quote. But that's British English.

Best wishes,
Tim Bourne.

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[Dave Cunningham]

The comma is correct, as indicating a pause in the spoken sentence.
Which, or course, is one of the normal uses of commas. Sans comma, one
would be at a loss in many cases - one famous one being "Time flies you
can't they fly too fast" where the punctuation becomes essential. Use the
comma unless you really mean "me me" without a pause.

Dave




On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 5:46:02 PM UTC-4, Daniel Widdis wrote:

> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
> their grammar for this question:
>
> "What makes me me?"
>
> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
> themselves.)
>
> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
> answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
> quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
> leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
> curious if you have other suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan
>

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[Dave Cunningham]

should read "a required pause" - just that someone might take a breath in a
long sentence has no bearing here - the issue is whether the sentence is
clearer with the comma. Punctuation was not a subject of concern until
the advent of the printing press, AFAICT.

On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 2:29:01 PM UTC-4, Dave Cunningham wrote:
>
> The comma is correct, as indicating a pause in the spoken sentence.
> Which, or course, is one of the normal uses of commas. Sans comma, one
> would be at a loss in many cases - one famous one being "Time flies you
> can't they fly too fast" where the punctuation becomes essential. Use the
> comma unless you really mean "me me" without a pause.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 5:46:02 PM UTC-4, Daniel Widdis wrote:
>
>> I'm preparing a presentation for someone who has asked me to correct
>> their grammar for this question:
>>
>> "What makes me me?"
>>
>> (The intent is to ask what it is that makes an individual uniquely
>> themselves.)
>>
>> The Google has failed me in providing a definitive answer. The popular
>> answer, "What makes me, me?" does not seem correct to me. I can use
>> quotes, or possibly italics, to highlight the second "me", and am
>> leaning that way. Knowing many of you have a fondness for grammar, I'm
>> curious if you have other suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dan
>>
>

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[—Keith Hale—]

I don't feel that the sentence in question _requires_ emphasis, nor
does it require any pause longer than might fall between any of the
words. (As an actor\speaker i think i would speak it slowly and
evenly.) I like it written plain (i am a style guy, and a rule
breaker, bear in mind). I think that in some cases, any extra
information added kills the chance for the reader to discover
something. A microspoiler. Possibly a nanospoiler. The discovery:
Oh, the second 'me' isn't a typo at all.

(Self-absorbed quasi-example from an original epigram: "Why don't the
people who should shut up?"
I wonder how that seeming-fragment would get punctuated by
rule-following editors. (I'm sure most would slice it out
completely.))

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[Judy Madnick]

Quote:
(Self-absorbed quasi-example from an original epigram: "Why don't the people who should shut up?"

Well, following the "me me" example, how about this? "Why don't the people who should shut up shut up?" LOL!

Judy

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