Dodi Schultz
September 23rd, 2005, 05:42 PM
Johnny has tossed a subject out for discussion, and I for one am glad he
has decided to do so, rather then sit there in his ben--or perched up there
on his ben, as the case may be--and stew about it.
First, I'd like to say that I've looked up BEN, Dave's word for round 1646,
in four standard dictionaries on my shelf, two US and two UK. All four say
that the word is Scottish (which Dave didn't indicate--but IMO, he was not
obliged to do so). The individual results:
AMERICAN HERITAGE, 2000 (Dave's source): As a noun, "the inner room or
parlor of a house with two rooms." As an adverb, "inside; within." As a
preposition, "within." Dave used only the noun, which is IMO entirely his
prerogative.
RANDOM HOUSE, 1999 (also US): As a noun, "the inner room of a cottage." As
an adverb or preposition, "within." As an adjective, "inner."
CONCISE OED, 2002: Listed only as a noun, gives two different defs: "a high
mountain" and "the inner room in a two-roomed cottage." Makes it clear, via
etymologies, that these are two totally different words; obviously only the
second appears in contemporary US dictionaries.
CHAMBERS, 1996 (also UK): Also treats as two different words. One is
"especially in place names: a mountain or mountain peak." The other: as a
noun, "the inner or better room or rooms of a house, which used to be
reached through the *but* or kitchen." As an adverb, "within."
Johnny says he feels that he was confronted with three "real" defs on
Dave's list: #4, "son of"; #14, that inner room; #16, the mountain. But he
didn't vote for any of them.
I see his dilemma. I don't agree that #4 is a def--not in the English
language, anyway. That leaves #14 and #16, and yeah, there's a problem.
IMO, if he'd honestly voted for #16 as a guess, despite the fact that the
def appears only in UK and not US dictionaries, he should have received 2
points. Further, if he had DQ'd because he'd seen #14 OR #16 and knew it to
be a real (UK) word, he should also have received two DPs if he did NOT
pick Dave's intended def.
I don't think the above kind of thing happens a whole lot.
But Johnny raises three other questions:
One is: Is any source for a word okay? I think that's covered in the rules,
which specify "any accepted dictionary." I think that excludes words found
solely in the text of poems, novels, rap lyrics, or a note from your
grandmother.
As in Scrabble, it seems to me that if any player questions the
acceptability of a particular lexicon, that question needs to be discussed.
I think that the dealer should as a matter of course state the dictionary
when reporting results (as Dave did).
Another question is: Should the dealer be required to check alternative
sources to see if other dictionaries might offer additional meanings? IMO:
No. The dealer has enough work to do. (Where would it end?)
A third question Johnny raises concerns the apparent omnipotence of the
dealer and has two parts: (a) When there are two or more actual meanings
(as with BEN), may the dealer pick a def and declare the other meaning(s)
invalid? I think that's a case-by-case question and, as observed above, a
rare situation. Dave has stated (in a reply to Johnny) that he mainly uses
standard current US dictionaries (AHD and Random House); he clearly had no
knowledge of the mountain def, which appears only in UK sources. (b) May
the dealer pluck a word from some other source, e.g., a Tolkien glossary?
IMO, no; a glossary covering words existing only within a fictional context
can't be called an "accepted dictionary."
Finally, Johnny cites an example that has me stumped, ABADA (or "AB'ADA"),
saying that an early def in "Webster" later proved wrong and was rewritten
for a later "Webster". I don't know what he's referring to. Dozens of
dictionaries use the word "Webster." The word he cites doesn't appear in
Random House Webster's. Nor does it appear in either edition I have of the
original Webster, Merriam-Webster unabridged (1864 and 1934), or in the M-W
Collegiate on my shelf (1996).
--Dodi
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has decided to do so, rather then sit there in his ben--or perched up there
on his ben, as the case may be--and stew about it.
First, I'd like to say that I've looked up BEN, Dave's word for round 1646,
in four standard dictionaries on my shelf, two US and two UK. All four say
that the word is Scottish (which Dave didn't indicate--but IMO, he was not
obliged to do so). The individual results:
AMERICAN HERITAGE, 2000 (Dave's source): As a noun, "the inner room or
parlor of a house with two rooms." As an adverb, "inside; within." As a
preposition, "within." Dave used only the noun, which is IMO entirely his
prerogative.
RANDOM HOUSE, 1999 (also US): As a noun, "the inner room of a cottage." As
an adverb or preposition, "within." As an adjective, "inner."
CONCISE OED, 2002: Listed only as a noun, gives two different defs: "a high
mountain" and "the inner room in a two-roomed cottage." Makes it clear, via
etymologies, that these are two totally different words; obviously only the
second appears in contemporary US dictionaries.
CHAMBERS, 1996 (also UK): Also treats as two different words. One is
"especially in place names: a mountain or mountain peak." The other: as a
noun, "the inner or better room or rooms of a house, which used to be
reached through the *but* or kitchen." As an adverb, "within."
Johnny says he feels that he was confronted with three "real" defs on
Dave's list: #4, "son of"; #14, that inner room; #16, the mountain. But he
didn't vote for any of them.
I see his dilemma. I don't agree that #4 is a def--not in the English
language, anyway. That leaves #14 and #16, and yeah, there's a problem.
IMO, if he'd honestly voted for #16 as a guess, despite the fact that the
def appears only in UK and not US dictionaries, he should have received 2
points. Further, if he had DQ'd because he'd seen #14 OR #16 and knew it to
be a real (UK) word, he should also have received two DPs if he did NOT
pick Dave's intended def.
I don't think the above kind of thing happens a whole lot.
But Johnny raises three other questions:
One is: Is any source for a word okay? I think that's covered in the rules,
which specify "any accepted dictionary." I think that excludes words found
solely in the text of poems, novels, rap lyrics, or a note from your
grandmother.
As in Scrabble, it seems to me that if any player questions the
acceptability of a particular lexicon, that question needs to be discussed.
I think that the dealer should as a matter of course state the dictionary
when reporting results (as Dave did).
Another question is: Should the dealer be required to check alternative
sources to see if other dictionaries might offer additional meanings? IMO:
No. The dealer has enough work to do. (Where would it end?)
A third question Johnny raises concerns the apparent omnipotence of the
dealer and has two parts: (a) When there are two or more actual meanings
(as with BEN), may the dealer pick a def and declare the other meaning(s)
invalid? I think that's a case-by-case question and, as observed above, a
rare situation. Dave has stated (in a reply to Johnny) that he mainly uses
standard current US dictionaries (AHD and Random House); he clearly had no
knowledge of the mountain def, which appears only in UK sources. (b) May
the dealer pluck a word from some other source, e.g., a Tolkien glossary?
IMO, no; a glossary covering words existing only within a fictional context
can't be called an "accepted dictionary."
Finally, Johnny cites an example that has me stumped, ABADA (or "AB'ADA"),
saying that an early def in "Webster" later proved wrong and was rewritten
for a later "Webster". I don't know what he's referring to. Dozens of
dictionaries use the word "Webster." The word he cites doesn't appear in
Random House Webster's. Nor does it appear in either edition I have of the
original Webster, Merriam-Webster unabridged (1864 and 1934), or in the M-W
Collegiate on my shelf (1996).
--Dodi
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