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John Barrs
October 13th, 2013, 02:35 PM
Firstly apologies for the delay in posting, an internet connection problem
has made me late.

The Dictionary gained a D2 after amalgamation with Dick's Definition (so
Dick also gained 2) but that amalgamation was not dealt with very well by
my own software so these results are courtesy of Marijka's dixomat
The definition itself was somewhat difficult because OED only said 'see
1959 citation' so I picked from the citation. Then along came Dick's
definition which was more specific in its limitation of what kind of group
was involved so I went to a Hebrew dictionary to confirm what I could
actually use and the result is #4 below

Guerri Stevens, Jim Hart, Nancy Shepherdson and Millie Morgan with 4
natural points each, were the top scorers and as I read the rolling scores
that Makes Millie the next dealer and the other 3 as the real winners...

JohnnyB

1: the site of a famous siege in the Middle East or a reference to that
siege
Voted for by nobody
FROM Chuck Emery who didn't vote, and scores 0 + 0 = 0

2: an ambush
Voted for by: Millie Morgan, Tony Abell, Dodi Schultz, Mike Shefler
FROM Guerri Stevens who voted 9 and 16, and scores 4 + 0 = 4

3: a series of symbolic body postures used in South Asian classical dancing
Voted for by: Efrem Mallach
FROM Chris Carson who didn't vote, and scores 1 + 0 = 1

4: an association, society or group; often for worship and study [Heb.
_hebra_ or _hevra_ a group]
Voted for by: Judy Madnick, Dan Widdis
FROM OED - online 2013 which can't vote, and scores D2
FROM Dick Weltz who voted 5 and 6, and scores 2 + 0 = 2

5: sacrifice of many rams; bath in blood of rams
Voted for by: Dick Weltz
FROM Judy Madnick who voted *4* and 7, and scores 1 + 2 = 3*

6: a dialect of Gaelic formerly spoken in the Hebrides, particularly Skye,
Lewis and the Uists
Voted for by: Dick Weltz, Keith Hale
FROM Tim Bourne who voted 15 and 16, and scores 2 + 0 = 2

7: a nocturnal rodent, about 12" (30cm) long, native to northern Africa
Voted for by: Judy Madnick
FROM Efrem Mallach who voted 3 and 12, and scores 1 + 0 = 1

8: (Mining) A gutter or channel for water, hewn out of the bottom of a
working drift
Voted for by nobody
FROM Dan Widdis who voted *4* and 9, and scores 0 + 2 = 2*

9: a region of diminished illumination as a result of partial occultation
Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Dan Widdis, Keith Hale, Dodi Schultz
FROM Jim Hart who voted 10 and 12, and scores 4 + 0 = 4

10: the white inner skin of the banana
Voted for by: Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Millie Morgan, Mike Shefler
FROM Nancy Shepherdson who didn't vote, and scores 4 + 0 = 4

11: an implement used in the drawing of wire or lead-pipe
Voted for by nobody
FROM Tim Lodge who voted 10 and 12, and scores 0 + 0 = 0

12: in the Samkhya philosophy: one of the three dominating principles of
nature (or gunas), manifested in material things as heaviness, darkness,
rigidity, and in the individual as fear, sloth, and indifference
Voted for by: Efrem Mallach, Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Steve Graham
FROM Millie Morgan who voted 2 and 10, and scores 4 + 0 = 4

13: [obs] a measure of distance, roughly 13 statute miles
Voted for by nobody
FROM Keith Hale who voted 6 and 9, and scores 0 + 0 = 0

14: an Algonquian chieftain
Voted for by nobody
FROM Tony Abell who voted 2 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0

15: a genetically normal zebra that has failed to develop stripes, having
an overall tan-to-white coloration. [Coined from "horse" + "zebra".]
Voted for by: Tim Bourne, Tony Abell, Steve Graham
FROM Dodi Schultz who voted 2 and 9, and scores 3 + 0 = 3

16: a basket, burlap bag, or wooden box lined with burlap for dry-curing
olives
Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Tim Bourne
FROM Mike Shefler who voted 2 and 10, and scores 2 + 0 = 2

No def
FROM Steve Graham who voted 12 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0

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France International/Mike Shefler
October 13th, 2013, 02:52 PM
I thought #15 was going to be the real def
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebra)

On 10/13/2013 3:35 PM, John Barrs wrote:
> Firstly apologies for the delay in posting, an internet connection
> problem has made me late.
>
> The Dictionary gained a D2 after amalgamation with Dick's Definition
> (so Dick also gained 2) but that amalgamation was not dealt with very
> well by my own software so these results are courtesy of Marijka's dixomat
> The definition itself was somewhat difficult because OED only said
> 'see 1959 citation' so I picked from the citation. Then along came
> Dick's definition which was more specific in its limitation of what
> kind of group was involved so I went to a Hebrew dictionary to confirm
> what I could actually use and the result is #4 below
>
> Guerri Stevens, Jim Hart, Nancy Shepherdson and Millie Morgan with 4
> natural points each, were the top scorers and as I read the rolling
> scores that Makes Millie the next dealer and the other 3 as the real
> winners...
>
> JohnnyB
>
> 1: the site of a famous siege in the Middle East or a reference to
> that siege
> Voted for by nobody
> FROM Chuck Emery who didn't vote, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>
> 2: an ambush
> Voted for by: Millie Morgan, Tony Abell, Dodi Schultz, Mike Shefler
> FROM Guerri Stevens who voted 9 and 16, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>
> 3: a series of symbolic body postures used in South Asian classical
> dancing
> Voted for by: Efrem Mallach
> FROM Chris Carson who didn't vote, and scores 1 + 0 = 1
>
> 4: an association, society or group; often for worship and study
> [Heb. _hebra_ or _hevra_ a group]
> Voted for by: Judy Madnick, Dan Widdis
> FROM OED - online 2013 which can't vote, and scores D2
> FROM Dick Weltz who voted 5 and 6, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>
> 5: sacrifice of many rams; bath in blood of rams
> Voted for by: Dick Weltz
> FROM Judy Madnick who voted *4* and 7, and scores 1 + 2 = 3*
>
> 6: a dialect of Gaelic formerly spoken in the Hebrides, particularly
> Skye, Lewis and the Uists
> Voted for by: Dick Weltz, Keith Hale
> FROM Tim Bourne who voted 15 and 16, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>
> 7: a nocturnal rodent, about 12" (30cm) long, native to northern Africa
> Voted for by: Judy Madnick
> FROM Efrem Mallach who voted 3 and 12, and scores 1 + 0 = 1
>
> 8: (Mining) A gutter or channel for water, hewn out of the bottom of
> a working drift
> Voted for by nobody
> FROM Dan Widdis who voted *4* and 9, and scores 0 + 2 = 2*
>
> 9: a region of diminished illumination as a result of partial occultation
> Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Dan Widdis, Keith Hale, Dodi Schultz
> FROM Jim Hart who voted 10 and 12, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>
> 10: the white inner skin of the banana
> Voted for by: Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Millie Morgan, Mike Shefler
> FROM Nancy Shepherdson who didn't vote, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>
> 11: an implement used in the drawing of wire or lead-pipe
> Voted for by nobody
> FROM Tim Lodge who voted 10 and 12, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>
> 12: in the Samkhya philosophy: one of the three dominating principles
> of nature (or gunas), manifested in material things as heaviness,
> darkness, rigidity, and in the individual as fear, sloth, and indifference
> Voted for by: Efrem Mallach, Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Steve Graham
> FROM Millie Morgan who voted 2 and 10, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>
> 13: [obs] a measure of distance, roughly 13 statute miles
> Voted for by nobody
> FROM Keith Hale who voted 6 and 9, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>
> 14: an Algonquian chieftain
> Voted for by nobody
> FROM Tony Abell who voted 2 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>
> 15: a genetically normal zebra that has failed to develop stripes,
> having an overall tan-to-white coloration. [Coined from "horse" +
> "zebra".]
> Voted for by: Tim Bourne, Tony Abell, Steve Graham
> FROM Dodi Schultz who voted 2 and 9, and scores 3 + 0 = 3
>
> 16: a basket, burlap bag, or wooden box lined with burlap for
> dry-curing olives
> Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Tim Bourne
> FROM Mike Shefler who voted 2 and 10, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>
> No def
> FROM Steve Graham who voted 12 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
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John Barrs
October 13th, 2013, 03:22 PM
that is partly why the real def included "or _hevra_"

- in fact it could have included "or _chevra_ because the 'h' is a glottal
h but I decided not to include that because it would draw attention back to
cheval


JohnnyB


On 13 October 2013 20:52, France International/Mike Shefler <
stamps (AT) salsgiver (DOT) com> wrote:

> I thought #15 was going to be the real def (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> **Hebra <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebra>)
>
>
> On 10/13/2013 3:35 PM, John Barrs wrote:
>
>> Firstly apologies for the delay in posting, an internet connection
>> problem has made me late.
>>
>> The Dictionary gained a D2 after amalgamation with Dick's Definition (so
>> Dick also gained 2) but that amalgamation was not dealt with very well by
>> my own software so these results are courtesy of Marijka's dixomat
>> The definition itself was somewhat difficult because OED only said 'see
>> 1959 citation' so I picked from the citation. Then along came Dick's
>> definition which was more specific in its limitation of what kind of group
>> was involved so I went to a Hebrew dictionary to confirm what I could
>> actually use and the result is #4 below
>>
>> Guerri Stevens, Jim Hart, Nancy Shepherdson and Millie Morgan with 4
>> natural points each, were the top scorers and as I read the rolling scores
>> that Makes Millie the next dealer and the other 3 as the real winners...
>>
>> JohnnyB
>>
>> 1: the site of a famous siege in the Middle East or a reference to that
>> siege
>> Voted for by nobody
>> FROM Chuck Emery who didn't vote, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>>
>> 2: an ambush
>> Voted for by: Millie Morgan, Tony Abell, Dodi Schultz, Mike Shefler
>> FROM Guerri Stevens who voted 9 and 16, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>>
>> 3: a series of symbolic body postures used in South Asian classical
>> dancing
>> Voted for by: Efrem Mallach
>> FROM Chris Carson who didn't vote, and scores 1 + 0 = 1
>>
>> 4: an association, society or group; often for worship and study [Heb.
>> _hebra_ or _hevra_ a group]
>> Voted for by: Judy Madnick, Dan Widdis
>> FROM OED - online 2013 which can't vote, and scores D2
>> FROM Dick Weltz who voted 5 and 6, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>>
>> 5: sacrifice of many rams; bath in blood of rams
>> Voted for by: Dick Weltz
>> FROM Judy Madnick who voted *4* and 7, and scores 1 + 2 = 3*
>>
>> 6: a dialect of Gaelic formerly spoken in the Hebrides, particularly
>> Skye, Lewis and the Uists
>> Voted for by: Dick Weltz, Keith Hale
>> FROM Tim Bourne who voted 15 and 16, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>>
>> 7: a nocturnal rodent, about 12" (30cm) long, native to northern Africa
>> Voted for by: Judy Madnick
>> FROM Efrem Mallach who voted 3 and 12, and scores 1 + 0 = 1
>>
>> 8: (Mining) A gutter or channel for water, hewn out of the bottom of a
>> working drift
>> Voted for by nobody
>> FROM Dan Widdis who voted *4* and 9, and scores 0 + 2 = 2*
>>
>> 9: a region of diminished illumination as a result of partial occultation
>> Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Dan Widdis, Keith Hale, Dodi Schultz
>> FROM Jim Hart who voted 10 and 12, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>>
>> 10: the white inner skin of the banana
>> Voted for by: Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Millie Morgan, Mike Shefler
>> FROM Nancy Shepherdson who didn't vote, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>>
>> 11: an implement used in the drawing of wire or lead-pipe
>> Voted for by nobody
>> FROM Tim Lodge who voted 10 and 12, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>>
>> 12: in the Samkhya philosophy: one of the three dominating principles of
>> nature (or gunas), manifested in material things as heaviness, darkness,
>> rigidity, and in the individual as fear, sloth, and indifference
>> Voted for by: Efrem Mallach, Jim Hart, Tim Lodge, Steve Graham
>> FROM Millie Morgan who voted 2 and 10, and scores 4 + 0 = 4
>>
>> 13: [obs] a measure of distance, roughly 13 statute miles
>> Voted for by nobody
>> FROM Keith Hale who voted 6 and 9, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>>
>> 14: an Algonquian chieftain
>> Voted for by nobody
>> FROM Tony Abell who voted 2 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>>
>> 15: a genetically normal zebra that has failed to develop stripes, having
>> an overall tan-to-white coloration. [Coined from "horse" + "zebra".]
>> Voted for by: Tim Bourne, Tony Abell, Steve Graham
>> FROM Dodi Schultz who voted 2 and 9, and scores 3 + 0 = 3
>>
>> 16: a basket, burlap bag, or wooden box lined with burlap for dry-curing
>> olives
>> Voted for by: Guerri Stevens, Tim Bourne
>> FROM Mike Shefler who voted 2 and 10, and scores 2 + 0 = 2
>>
>> No def
>> FROM Steve Graham who voted 12 and 15, and scores 0 + 0 = 0
>> --
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>> "Dixonary" group.
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>
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EnDash@aol.com
October 13th, 2013, 04:02 PM
FWIW, the word would most often be transliterated from the Hebrew as
"chevra," but that is simply to indicate that the first consonant is glottal and
that the Hebrew "b" and "v" are two ways of pronouncing the second letter
of the Hebrew alphabet (you just have to know which works in which word).

As there is no universally accepted standard for transliterating Hebrew
into Latin characters, variations frequently appear. For the newer prayer
books of the Conservative branch of Judaism it was decided that they would use
an "H" with a dot under it for the glottal "ch." Unfortunately, such a
character is rarely found in any Roman type fonts and not used in any major
language, so it often shows up as just a plain "h."

The most common usage of the word that I know of is in "chevra kadisha,"
which, among Orthodox Jewry, is a volunteer society that cleans and purifies
corpses before burial. The more modern meaning of group or society probably
derives from the word "chaver," which shares its tri consonantal root and
means "friend."

-- Dick



In a message dated 10/13/2013 4:22:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
johnnybarrs (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

that is partly why the real def included "or _hevra_"

- in fact it could have included "or _chevra_ because the 'h' is a
glottal h but I decided not to include that because it would draw attention back
to cheval


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Dodi Schultz
October 13th, 2013, 04:12 PM
Are you saying it's a Hebrew word and not an English word?

========================================

On 10/13/2013 5:02 PM, Dick Weltz wrote:
> FWIW, the word would most often be transliterated from the Hebrew as
> "chevra," but that is simply to indicate that the first consonant is
> glottal and that the Hebrew "b" and "v" are two ways of pronouncing the
> second letter of the Hebrew alphabet (you just have to know which works
> in which word).
> As there is no universally accepted standard for transliterating Hebrew
> into Latin characters, variations frequently appear. For the newer prayer
> books of the Conservative branch of Judaism it was decided that they
> would use an "H" with a dot under it for the glottal "ch." Unfortunately,
> such a character is rarely found in any Roman type fonts and not used in
> any major language, so it often shows up as just a plain "h."
> The most common usage of the word that I know of is in "chevra kadisha,"
> which, among Orthodox Jewry, is a volunteer society that cleans and
> purifies corpses before burial. The more modern meaning of group or
> society probably derives from the word "chaver," which shares its tri
> consonantal root and means "friend."
> -- Dick
>

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Efrem Mallach
October 13th, 2013, 04:31 PM
I lived in Israel for six years earlier in my life, went to Israeli (hence Hebrew-speaking) public schools, and am still fluent - as confirmed by a visit four months ago.

Hevra is, indeed, originally a Hebrew word. It's used enough in English (in limited contexts, but so are many undeniably English words) that I think it should be acceptable on those grounds. However, the spelling hebra is an error, plain and simple. The consonant in this word can be either "b" or "v" as Dick Weltz wrote, but in this word it is always a "v." I have never seen it with a "b" in English, and it is never pronounced that way. That's why I rejected the correct definition in the list, even though "hevra" (with a "v") is part of my active vocabulary. Had I thought for even an instant that "hebra" might be "hevra," I would have disqualified myself.

That said, if a recognized dictionary has the spelling, I'm not going to argue with it.

Efrem

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
On Oct 13, 2013, at 5:12 PM, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> Are you saying it's a Hebrew word and not an English word?
>
> ========================================
>
> On 10/13/2013 5:02 PM, Dick Weltz wrote:
>> FWIW, the word would most often be transliterated from the Hebrew as "chevra," but that is simply to indicate that the first consonant is glottal and that the Hebrew "b" and "v" are two ways of pronouncing the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet (you just have to know which works in which word).
>> As there is no universally accepted standard for transliterating Hebrew into Latin characters, variations frequently appear. For the newer prayer books of the Conservative branch of Judaism it was decided that they would use an "H" with a dot under it for the glottal "ch." Unfortunately, such a character is rarely found in any Roman type fonts and not used in any major language, so it often shows up as just a plain "h."
>> The most common usage of the word that I know of is in "chevra kadisha," which, among Orthodox Jewry, is a volunteer society that cleans and purifies corpses before burial. The more modern meaning of group or society probably derives from the word "chaver," which shares its tri consonantal root and means "friend."
>> -- Dick
>>
>
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Judy Madnick
October 13th, 2013, 08:34 PM
However, the spelling hebra is an error, plain and simple. The consonant in this word can be either "b" or "v" as Dick Weltz wrote, but in this word it is always a "v." I have never seen it with a "b" in English, and it is never pronounced that way. That's why I rejected the correct definition in the list, even though "hevra" (with a "v") is part of my active vocabulary. Had I thought for even an instant that "hebra" might be "hevra," I would have disqualified myself.

Same here. I'm familiar with the Hebrew word chavurah -- which is typically a group of Jewish people who wish to gather for social, life-cycle, and religious events (my rough definition <G>). Perhaps the use of the "b" was based upon someone's error in transliteration, since the Hebrew letters bet and vet are identical except for a "dot" (or dagesh) in the bet, which doesn't appear in the vet.

Judy Madnick
Albany, NY

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John Barrs
October 14th, 2013, 05:32 AM
I apologise if I am walking into a minefield here. BUT... the word is in
the OED with that spelling.

Strangely for a dictionary there wasn't a definition, merely "see quot.1959"

here is the entry:
===========================
hebra, n.

*Pronunciation:* /ˈhɛbrə/
*Forms:* Also *chevra(h*). Pl. *hebras*, *hebroth*, *chevroth*.
*Etymology:* < Hebrew *ḥeḇrâh*, association, society; group as small
religious community.
Thesaurus »
Categories »

(See quot. 1959 <goog_1831118797>.)


and Q 1959

1959 F. M. Wilson *They came as Strangers* iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed *
chevras*, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
public worship and the study of the Talmud.

========================

other modern quotations suggested that such chevras were "an annoyance" to
the big synagogues. I'll put all the OED quotations below my siggie for
those who do not have on-line access to the OED


When Dick's definition arrived it was far more limiting than "groups for
public worship and study" so I used a Hebrew Dictionary to find out what I
could include and found that originally it was a group of like minded
people meeting together for a common purpose so I adjusted the definition
to what we played


Incidentally re the pronunciation of the the second letter of the Hebrew
alphabet, my "knowledge" (or lack of it) comes from seminary courses on
Biblical Hebrew. and basically it seemed to me that re v or b - as Dick
said above - you just have to know which is which.

As an aside because I do not have any sort of visual memory I found Hebrew
very difficult indeed because the scripting needs a pictorial memory. I
managed to persuade the seminary that what we should be tested on was not
the usual "have you memorised all this vocabulary?" but on the grammar and
constructions that we would find. - I was not popular with most of my peers
for many of them were relying on memorising passages in both languages,
recognising them, and merely parroting the associated translation. I did
pass with enough to maintain my final A's average. To be honest, although
rewarding, Hebrew was the one part of the course I found most difficult and
the one study that I have not kept up over the years. I know enough to
comprehend the Christian commentators and my Jewish friends and contacts -
and enough to know what questions to ask the latter if I don't understand -
but not enough to claim any real knowledge of my own.
JohnnyB

FYI: all the quotations cited in OED (Note: 3 out of the 7 use "hebra")

1880 *Jewish Chron.* 6 Feb. 9/2 The poorer classes prefer to belong to
one of the numerous *Hebras* which..abound in the East End.
1880 *Jewish Chron.* 6 Feb. 4/1 Many of these unattached Jews are not
wealthy... They..have their *Hebras*, their customs and peculiarities.
1892 I. Zangwill *Children of Ghetto* I. i. ii. 44 Even in the smallest
*Chevrah* the high hat comes next in sanctity to the Scroll of the Law.
1918 C. G. Montefiore *Liberal Judaism & Hellenism* v. 259 This
oligarchic tendency is counteracted by the little Synagogues and the *
Chevras*.
1959 F. M. Wilson *They came as Strangers* iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed *
chevras*, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
public worship and the study of the Talmud.
1960 *Economist* 25 June 1331/1 Here and there are the little
*chevras*or conventicles whose continued existence so much annoyed the
big
synagogues.
1960 L. P. Gartner *Jewish Immigrant* vii. 186 In the *hebra*..a Jew
associated himself with fellow Jews..for..worship and study and
conviviality.




On 14 October 2013 02:34, Judy Madnick <jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

> *However, the spelling hebra is an error, plain and simple. The
> consonant in this word can be either "b" or "v" as Dick Weltz wrote, but in
> this word it is always a "v." I have never seen it with a "b" in English,
> and it is never pronounced that way. That's why I rejected the correct
> definition in the list, even though "hevra" (with a "v") is part of my
> active vocabulary. Had I thought for even an instant that "hebra" might be
> "hevra," I would have disqualified myself. *
> * *
> Same here. I'm familiar with the Hebrew word *chavurah* -- which is
> typically a group of Jewish people who wish to gather for social,
> life-cycle, and religious events (my rough definition <G>). Perhaps the use
> of the "b" was based upon someone's error in transliteration, since the
> Hebrew letters *bet* and *vet* are identical except for a "dot" (or *
> dagesh)* in the *bet,* which doesn't appear in the *vet.*
>
> Judy Madnick
> Albany, NY
>
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Dodi Schultz
October 14th, 2013, 09:02 AM
This is just a question, not an argument: Doesn't the fact that the OED
puts the word in italics mean that even that dictionary considers it a
foreign word—i.e., one that has not entered the English language? (As Mike
pointed out in his citation, there is in fact an English word hebra, with a
completely different meaning, and there are at least two other online
definitions that match the one he cited.)

—Dodi


On 10/14/2013 6:32 AM, John Barrs wrote:
> I apologise if I am walking into a minefield here. BUT... the word is in
> the OED with that spelling.
>
> Strangely for a dictionary there wasn't a definition, merely "see quot.1959"
>
> here is the entry:
> ===========================
>
>
> hebra, n.
>
>
> *Pronunciation:* /ˈhɛbrə/
> *Forms:* Also *chevra(h*). Pl. *hebras*, *hebroth*, *chevroth*.
> *Etymology:* < Hebrew /ḥeḇrâh/, association, society; group as small
> religious community.
> Thesaurus »
> Categories »
>
>
> (See quot. 1959 <goog_1831118797>. <http://.>)
>
>
> and Q 1959
>
> 1959 F. M. Wilson /They came as Strangers/ iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
> Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed
> /chevras/, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
> public worship and the study of the Talmud.
>
> ========================
>
> other modern quotations suggested that such chevras were "an annoyance"
> to the big synagogues. I'll put all the OED quotations below my siggie
> for those who do not have on-line access to the OED
>
>
> When Dick's definition arrived it was far more limiting than "groups for
> public worship and study" so I used a Hebrew Dictionary to find out what
> I could include and found that originally it was a group of like minded
> people meeting together for a common purpose so I adjusted the definition
> to what we played
>
>
> Incidentally re the pronunciation of the the second letter of the Hebrew
> alphabet, my "knowledge" (or lack of it) comes from seminary courses on
> Biblical Hebrew. and basically it seemed to me that re v or b - as Dick
> said above - you just have to know which is which.
>
> As an aside because I do not have any sort of visual memory I found
> Hebrew very difficult indeed because the scripting needs a pictorial
> memory. I managed to persuade the seminary that what we should be tested
> on was not the usual "have you memorised all this vocabulary?" but on the
> grammar and constructions that we would find. - I was not popular with
> most of my peers for many of them were relying on memorising passages in
> both languages, recognising them, and merely parroting the associated
> translation. I did pass with enough to maintain my final A's average. To
> be honest, although rewarding, Hebrew was the one part of the course I
> found most difficult and the one study that I have not kept up over the
> years. I know enough to comprehend the Christian commentators and my
> Jewish friends and contacts - and enough to know what questions to ask
> the latter if I don't understand - but not enough to claim any real
> knowledge of my own.
>
> JohnnyB
>
> FYI: all the quotations cited in OED (Note: 3 out of the 7 use "hebra")
>
> 1880 /Jewish Chron./ 6 Feb. 9/2 The poorer classes prefer to belong to
> one of the numerous /Hebras/ which..abound in the East End.
> 1880 /Jewish Chron./ 6 Feb. 4/1 Many of these unattached Jews are not
> wealthy... They..have their /Hebras/, their customs and peculiarities.
> 1892 I. Zangwill /Children of Ghetto/ I. i. ii. 44 Even in the smallest
> /Chevrah/ the high hat comes next in sanctity to the Scroll of the Law.
> 1918 C. G. Montefiore /Liberal Judaism & Hellenism/ v. 259 This
> oligarchic tendency is counteracted by the little Synagogues and the
> /Chevras/.
> 1959 F. M. Wilson /They came as Strangers/ iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
> Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed
> /chevras/, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
> public worship and the study of the Talmud.
> 1960 /Economist/ 25 June 1331/1 Here and there are the little /chevras/
> or conventicles whose continued existence so much annoyed the big synagogues.
> 1960 L. P. Gartner /Jewish Immigrant/ vii. 186 In the /hebra/..a Jew
> associated himself with fellow Jews..for..worship and study and conviviality.
>
>
>
>
> On 14 October 2013 02:34, Judy Madnick <jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com
> <mailto:jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> wrote:
>
> /However, the spelling hebra is an error, plain and simple. The
> consonant in this word can be either "b" or "v" as Dick Weltz wrote,
> but in this word it is always a "v." I have never seen it with a "b"
> in English, and it is never pronounced that way. That's why I
> rejected the correct definition in the list, even though "hevra"
> (with a "v") is part of my active vocabulary. Had I thought for even
> an instant that "hebra" might be "hevra," I would have disqualified
> myself. /
> //
> Same here. I'm familiar with the Hebrew word /chavurah/ -- which is
> typically a group of Jewish people who wish to gather for social,
> life-cycle, and religious events (my rough definition <G>). Perhaps
> the use of the "b" was based upon someone's error in transliteration,
> since the Hebrew letters /bet/ and /vet/ are identical except for a
> "dot" (or /dagesh)/ in the /bet,/ which doesn't appear in the /vet./
> Judy Madnick
> Albany, NY
> --
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John Barrs
October 14th, 2013, 11:37 AM
Dodi

I cannot see in the Online OED that "hebra" is in italics (in fact I am
sure that it is not) but anyway italics in a defined word in the OED do not
infer that it is foreign

I did wonder

a) that it didn't have a definition merely a quotation
b) that the alternatives found in the quotations do not appear in the
dictionary at all
c) However, if you search for these alternatives you end up at hebra

I rest on the fact that the word does occur in the most prestigious of
Dictionaries - your only question that I can see is to query my choice of
definition of that word with that meaning and I have explained why I chose
the words I did (for a short while I did wonder if the word was related to
the word "Hebrew" but that comes from a totally different root)

I thought that under an earlier discussion that we had agreed that almost
any dictionary would be acceptable - although you (pl) have ruled out my
use of a dictionary of horticulture but we do play some esoteric words -
from Honolulu and Japan and from the other sciences - some scientific
terms are more "foreign" than than others but are still imported into our
language even if only used by a relative handful of specialists. English is
a language of imported words - the fact that we have similar but different
words like raise and rise betray the existence of the DaneLaw. The fact
that we can have a place called "Torpenhowe Hill" where each syllable means
Hill but in different languages betrays a turbulent past. Many of us live
in bungalows (from Bengal) etc etc just demonstrate that any living
language imports words.

As a point of interest, would we allow "man t'ou"

Surely the fundamentals of this game are that we do NOT call a spade a spade

JohnnyB



On 14 October 2013 15:02, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> This is just a question, not an argument: Doesn't the fact that the OED
> puts the word in italics mean that even that dictionary considers it a
> foreign word—i.e., one that has not entered the English language? (As Mike
> pointed out in his citation, there is in fact an English word hebra, with a
> completely different meaning, and there are at least two other online
> definitions that match the one he cited.)
>
> —Dodi
>
>
>
> On 10/14/2013 6:32 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>
>> I apologise if I am walking into a minefield here. BUT... the word is in
>> the OED with that spelling.
>>
>> Strangely for a dictionary there wasn't a definition, merely "see
>> quot.1959"
>>
>> here is the entry:
>> ===========================
>>
>>
>> hebra, n.
>>
>>
>> *Pronunciation:* /ˈhɛbrə/
>> *Forms:* Also *chevra(h*). Pl. *hebras*, *hebroth*, *chevroth*.
>> *Etymology:* < Hebrew /ḥeḇrâh/, association, society; group as small
>> religious community.
>> Thesaurus »
>> Categories »
>>
>>
>> (See quot. 1959 <goog_1831118797>. <http://.>)
>>
>>
>> and Q 1959
>>
>> 1959 F. M. Wilson /They came as Strangers/ iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
>> Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed
>> /chevras/, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
>> public worship and the study of the Talmud.
>>
>>
>> ========================
>>
>> other modern quotations suggested that such chevras were "an annoyance"
>> to the big synagogues. I'll put all the OED quotations below my siggie for
>> those who do not have on-line access to the OED
>>
>>
>> When Dick's definition arrived it was far more limiting than "groups for
>> public worship and study" so I used a Hebrew Dictionary to find out what I
>> could include and found that originally it was a group of like minded
>> people meeting together for a common purpose so I adjusted the definition
>> to what we played
>>
>>
>> Incidentally re the pronunciation of the the second letter of the Hebrew
>> alphabet, my "knowledge" (or lack of it) comes from seminary courses on
>> Biblical Hebrew. and basically it seemed to me that re v or b - as Dick
>> said above - you just have to know which is which.
>>
>> As an aside because I do not have any sort of visual memory I found
>> Hebrew very difficult indeed because the scripting needs a pictorial
>> memory. I managed to persuade the seminary that what we should be tested on
>> was not the usual "have you memorised all this vocabulary?" but on the
>> grammar and constructions that we would find. - I was not popular with most
>> of my peers for many of them were relying on memorising passages in both
>> languages, recognising them, and merely parroting the associated
>> translation. I did pass with enough to maintain my final A's average. To be
>> honest, although rewarding, Hebrew was the one part of the course I found
>> most difficult and the one study that I have not kept up over the years. I
>> know enough to comprehend the Christian commentators and my Jewish friends
>> and contacts - and enough to know what questions to ask the latter if I
>> don't understand - but not enough to claim any real knowledge of my own.
>>
>> JohnnyB
>>
>> FYI: all the quotations cited in OED (Note: 3 out of the 7 use "hebra")
>>
>> 1880 /Jewish Chron./ 6 Feb. 9/2 The poorer classes prefer to belong to
>> one of the numerous /Hebras/ which..abound in the East End.
>> 1880 /Jewish Chron./ 6 Feb. 4/1 Many of these unattached Jews are not
>> wealthy... They..have their /Hebras/, their customs and peculiarities.
>> 1892 I. Zangwill /Children of Ghetto/ I. i. ii. 44 Even in the smallest
>> /Chevrah/ the high hat comes next in sanctity to the Scroll of the Law.
>> 1918 C. G. Montefiore /Liberal Judaism & Hellenism/ v. 259 This
>> oligarchic tendency is counteracted by the little Synagogues and the
>> /Chevras/.
>> 1959 F. M. Wilson /They came as Strangers/ iii. iii. 195 Thousands of
>> Jews were too poor to be seat-holders in the synagogue, so they formed
>> /chevras/, which were partly Friendly Societies, and partly groups for
>> public worship and the study of the Talmud.
>> 1960 /Economist/ 25 June 1331/1 Here and there are the little /chevras/
>> or conventicles whose continued existence so much annoyed the big
>> synagogues.
>> 1960 L. P. Gartner /Jewish Immigrant/ vii. 186 In the /hebra/..a Jew
>> associated himself with fellow Jews..for..worship and study and
>> conviviality.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 October 2013 02:34, Judy Madnick <jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com <mailto:
>> jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> wrote:
>>
>> /However, the spelling hebra is an error, plain and simple. The
>>
>> consonant in this word can be either "b" or "v" as Dick Weltz wrote,
>> but in this word it is always a "v." I have never seen it with a "b"
>> in English, and it is never pronounced that way. That's why I
>> rejected the correct definition in the list, even though "hevra"
>> (with a "v") is part of my active vocabulary. Had I thought for even
>> an instant that "hebra" might be "hevra," I would have disqualified
>> myself. /
>> //
>> Same here. I'm familiar with the Hebrew word /chavurah/ -- which is
>>
>> typically a group of Jewish people who wish to gather for social,
>> life-cycle, and religious events (my rough definition <G>). Perhaps
>> the use of the "b" was based upon someone's error in transliteration,
>> since the Hebrew letters /bet/ and /vet/ are identical except for a
>> "dot" (or /dagesh)/ in the /bet,/ which doesn't appear in the /vet./
>>
>> Judy Madnick
>> Albany, NY
>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> Google
>> Groups "Dixonary" group.
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EnDash@aol.com
October 14th, 2013, 12:10 PM
I assumed that was it, as modern Hebrew doesn't use the dagesh to
distinguish between bet and vet, except in beginner's books and some prayer books
-- you just have to know the word.

-- Dick



In a message dated 10/13/2013 9:34:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmadnick (AT) gmail (DOT) com writes:

Perhaps the use of the "b" was based upon someone's error in
transliteration, since the Hebrew letters bet and vet are identical except for a "dot"
(or dagesh) in the bet, which doesn't appear in the vet.

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EnDash@aol.com
October 14th, 2013, 12:17 PM
When formulating what I thought was a fake definition, I pretended that it
was a mis-spelled variant of a Hebrew word -- not realizing that the OED
had presented it in that mis-tansliterated form.

I really didn't think that it was the word I said it was or I'd have
declared myself DQ. In fact, looking it up subsequently after voting, I found
that it is a neologism for a hybrid horse and zebra, according to some Web
sources.

-- Dick


In a message dated 10/13/2013 5:12:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net writes:

Are you saying it's a Hebrew word and not an English word?

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Dodi Schultz
October 14th, 2013, 12:49 PM
Yes, Mike found the horse-zebra hybrid definition at Wikipedia. The same
definition appears in thefreedictionary.com

/Hebra/ is also a Spanish word for thread, and /queso hebra/ is Spanish for
string cheese.

—Dodi

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


On 10/14/2013 1:17 PM, Dick Weltz wrote:
> When formulating what I thought was a fake definition, I pretended that
> it was a mis-spelled variant of a Hebrew word -- not realizing that the
> OED had presented it in that mis-transliterated form.
> I really didn't think that it was the word I said it was or I'd have
> declared myself DQ. In fact, looking it up subsequently after voting, I
> found that it is a neologism for a hybrid horse and zebra, according to
> some Web sources.
> -- Dick
>

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