PDA

View Full Version : [Dixonary] OT: English Again


Guerri Stevens
June 1st, 2013, 05:08 AM
"Mrs. Stevens" or "Mrs Stevens"?
--
Guerri

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Steve Graham
June 1st, 2013, 07:09 AM
Wikipedia has a long dissertation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs.

American newspaper style is to use the '.' in all abbreviated courtesy
titles.

No tree is too big for a short dog to lift his leg on
Steve Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf
Of Guerri Stevens
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 3:08 AM
To: Google Dixonary
Subject: [Dixonary] OT: English Again

"Mrs. Stevens" or "Mrs Stevens"?
--
Guerri

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Glen Boswell
June 1st, 2013, 07:43 AM
In the UK we tend not to put a full stop, or period, in an honorific. We'd
> write 'Mrs Stevens', 'Dr Feelgood' and so on . . .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

John Barrs
June 1st, 2013, 08:31 AM
I noticed (as a programmer) then USA mail addresses specify full stops on
all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"should be
spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively but if
abbreviated must allways have the full stop.

I guess whether one uses the stops on Mr, Mrs etc depends on whether you
think they are titles or abbreviations. Here in UK I suspect that we
consider them titles and therefore complete without the stop.

As an amusing extra to this kind of conversation. I grew up when most men
would receive letters addressed to either "Mr A. Xyz"
or "A. Xyz esq." -- that has now passed into history but I was intrigued
to discover that one of my nephews who graduated in Law at UCLA and
practices in the USA has the right to be addressed as "esq."

JohnnyB


On 1 June 2013 13:43, Glen Boswell <gpboswell (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

>
>
> In the UK we tend not to put a full stop, or period, in an honorific. We'd
>> write 'Mrs Stevens', 'Dr Feelgood' and so on . . .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dixonary" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Dodi Schultz
June 1st, 2013, 11:21 AM
On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full
> stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"
> should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively
> but if abbreviated must always have the full stop.

Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official
guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will mail be
undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for addressing.)

There is nothing whatever in the guidelines pertaining to spelling out such
words as "Street" and "Road" versus abbreviating them; indeed, a list of
abbreviations is provided for those who would like how-to guidance.
Presumably one does as one pleases.

The guidelines do suggest (not demand or require) that one "avoid commas,
periods, or other punctuation", since that, according to the Service, may
slow down the processing equipment (there is no further explanation). Thus,
if one chooses to abbreviate, "St" and "Rd" are apparently preferred to
"St." and "Rd." Nevertheless, I'd bet a large sum of money that the vast
majority of items sent in the US mails use periods (full stops) with such
abbreviations, because that's what we've all been taught in school.

—Dodi


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Efrem Mallach
June 1st, 2013, 12:19 PM
On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:

> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road" should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively but if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>
> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will mail be undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for addressing.)

True of first-class mail, which is what most of us send. However, the postal service can and does refuse other types of mail (such as bulk mail) if the addresses don't conform to the guidelines. The addressing software that most people use to prepare those types of mail formats these correctly.

Efrem

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

John Barrs
June 1st, 2013, 12:59 PM
Dodi

I plead senility!

When I was creating the specific system that caused me to create USA
Addresses these were the following requirements - advice, not mandatory but
strongly advised by USPA:
Everything should be in Capitals
Abbreviations for locations are not approved with the single exception
of AVE for AVENUE but if used must have the full-stop
Common Titles MR. MRS. DR. DRS. are always Abbreviations and should
therefore have a full-stop

If the powers that be change the rules then so-be-it. The reasons given
then were not the needs of some processing equipment but the fact that not
all delivery personnel had English as their first language

As a side-line: I loved the fact that in some states the local delivery
service provided "proper" (from my perspective) cars with RH drive so the
guy could stuff mail boxes without getting out of the car - of course these
were very useful for rounds with no pavements (ie no sidewalks) but at
least one guy I knew used to drive slowly down the sidewalk

JohnnyB


On 1 June 2013 17:21, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>
>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full
>> stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"
>> should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively
>> but if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>>
>
> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official
> guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will mail be
> undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for addressing.)
>
> There is nothing whatever in the guidelines pertaining to spelling out
> such words as "Street" and "Road" versus abbreviating them; indeed, a list
> of abbreviations is provided for those who would like how-to guidance.
> Presumably one does as one pleases.
>
> The guidelines do suggest (not demand or require) that one "avoid commas,
> periods, or other punctuation", since that, according to the Service, may
> slow down the processing equipment (there is no further explanation). Thus,
> if one chooses to abbreviate, "St" and "Rd" are apparently preferred to
> "St." and "Rd." Nevertheless, I'd bet a large sum of money that the vast
> majority of items sent in the US mails use periods (full stops) with such
> abbreviations, because that's what we've all been taught in school.
>
> —Dodi
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dixonary" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to dixonary+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<dixonary%2Bunsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> .
>
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Efrem Mallach
June 1st, 2013, 01:07 PM
On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:59 PM, John Barrs wrote:

....

> As a side-line: I loved the fact that in some states the local delivery service provided "proper" (from my perspective) cars with RH drive so the guy could stuff mail boxes without getting out of the car - of course these were very useful for rounds with no pavements (ie no sidewalks) but at least one guy I knew used to drive slowly down the sidewalk
>
> JohnnyB

My younger son, while a student at Middlebury College in Vermont, had a temporary job with the postal service. One of his responsibilities was sorting the mail in a small sub-office located in a general store a few miles west of town.

The mail had to reach that sub-office somehow, and it had to be transported in an official Postal Service vehicle. The only such vehicles available were the right-hand drive sort. My son was not allowed to drive them, since he had not gone through USPS training in driving RHD vehicles.

Therefore, one postal service employee would drive a bag of mail out to the sub-office every morning and drive right back. My son would then drive out in his own car, sort that mail, and drive back. This continued for several months, until they finally put my son through RHD school.

And people wonder why the U.S. postal service loses money ...

Efrem

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Dodi Schultz
June 1st, 2013, 01:11 PM
On 6/1/2013 1:19 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road" should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively but if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will mail be undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for addressing.)
> True of first-class mail, which is what most of us send. However, the postal service can and does refuse other types of mail (such as bulk mail) if the addresses don't conform to the guidelines. The addressing software that most people use to prepare those types of mail formats these correctly.
>
> Efrem

Interesting, Efrem. I didn't find any such statement at the USPS official
website, though, and the addressing guidelines to which I was referring
specifically covered both letters and packages. Is there another section
that covers bulk mail? Got a link? (Finding things at that site is not the
easiest thing in the world.)

—Dodi

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Steve Graham
June 1st, 2013, 05:43 PM
See: http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/ for U.S. Postal addressing standards.

See: http://www.gis.co.clay.mn.us/usps.htm for a list of standardized
abbreviations for ST, RD, etc. (No, they are not spelled out and neither do
they carry a '.'

No tree is too big for a short dog to lift his leg on
Steve Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf
Of Dodi Schultz
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 11:12 AM
To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [Dixonary] Re: OT: English Again

On 6/1/2013 1:19 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full
stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"
should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively but
if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official
>> guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will
>> mail be undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for
>> addressing.)
> True of first-class mail, which is what most of us send. However, the
postal service can and does refuse other types of mail (such as bulk mail)
if the addresses don't conform to the guidelines. The addressing software
that most people use to prepare those types of mail formats these correctly.
>
> Efrem

Interesting, Efrem. I didn't find any such statement at the USPS official
website, though, and the addressing guidelines to which I was referring
specifically covered both letters and packages. Is there another section
that covers bulk mail? Got a link? (Finding things at that site is not the
easiest thing in the world.)

-Dodi

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Dodi Schultz
June 1st, 2013, 06:14 PM
Thanks, Steve. I'd already found that list of abbrs (which is what I was
referring to when I said Johnny's earlier statement was mistaken). But does
your first link lead to a statement about bulk mail being refused if it
doesn't conform to a particular format? I don't see it there.

—Dodi


On 6/1/2013 6:43 PM, Steve Graham wrote:
> See: http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/ for U.S. Postal addressing standards.
>
> See: http://www.gis.co.clay.mn.us/usps.htm for a list of standardized
> abbreviations for ST, RD, etc. (No, they are not spelled out and neither do
> they carry a '.'
>
> No tree is too big for a short dog to lift his leg on
> Steve Graham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf
> Of Dodi Schultz
> Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 11:12 AM
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Subject: Re: [Dixonary] Re: OT: English Again
>
> On 6/1/2013 1:19 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>>>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify full
> stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"
> should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd" respectively but
> if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>>> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official
>>> guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will
>>> mail be undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for
>>> addressing.)
>> True of first-class mail, which is what most of us send. However, the
> postal service can and does refuse other types of mail (such as bulk mail)
> if the addresses don't conform to the guidelines. The addressing software
> that most people use to prepare those types of mail formats these correctly.
>> Efrem
> Interesting, Efrem. I didn't find any such statement at the USPS official
> website, though, and the addressing guidelines to which I was referring
> specifically covered both letters and packages. Is there another section
> that covers bulk mail? Got a link? (Finding things at that site is not the
> easiest thing in the world.)
>
> -Dodi
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dixonary" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Steve Graham
June 1st, 2013, 06:52 PM
I can't find any document about that. I tried calling a friend who just
retired as postmaster of a reasonably significant Oregon city, but he's not
in.

No tree is too big for a short dog to lift his leg on
Steve Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On Behalf
Of Dodi Schultz
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 4:14 PM
To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [Dixonary] Re: OT: English Again

Thanks, Steve. I'd already found that list of abbrs (which is what I was
referring to when I said Johnny's earlier statement was mistaken). But does
your first link lead to a statement about bulk mail being refused if it
doesn't conform to a particular format? I don't see it there.

-Dodi


On 6/1/2013 6:43 PM, Steve Graham wrote:
> See: http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/ for U.S. Postal addressing standards.
>
> See: http://www.gis.co.clay.mn.us/usps.htm for a list of standardized
> abbreviations for ST, RD, etc. (No, they are not spelled out and
> neither do they carry a '.'
>
> No tree is too big for a short dog to lift his leg on Steve Graham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com [mailto:dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com] On
> Behalf Of Dodi Schultz
> Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 11:12 AM
> To: dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> Subject: Re: [Dixonary] Re: OT: English Again
>
> On 6/1/2013 1:19 PM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/1/2013 9:31 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>>>> I noticed (as a programmer) then [that] USA mail addresses specify
>>>> full
> stops on all titles and also specify that words like "Street" and "Road"
> should be spelled in full as opposed to using "St" and "Rd"
> respectively but if abbreviated must always have the full stop.
>>> Not so, Johnny. I've just checked the US Postal Service official
>>> guidelines. There is no such specification. (Nor, in the US, will
>>> mail be undelivered if it doesn't conform to USPS suggestions for
>>> addressing.)
>> True of first-class mail, which is what most of us send. However, the
> postal service can and does refuse other types of mail (such as bulk
> mail) if the addresses don't conform to the guidelines. The addressing
> software that most people use to prepare those types of mail formats these
correctly.
>> Efrem
> Interesting, Efrem. I didn't find any such statement at the USPS
> official website, though, and the addressing guidelines to which I was
> referring specifically covered both letters and packages. Is there
> another section that covers bulk mail? Got a link? (Finding things at
> that site is not the easiest thing in the world.)
>
> -Dodi
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Dixonary" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Guerri Stevens
June 2nd, 2013, 06:10 AM
I noticed the absence of the period in something I was reading, which
may have been by a UK author, now that I think about it.

Guerri
On 6/1/2013 8:43 AM, Glen Boswell wrote:
>
>
> In the UK we tend not to put a full stop, or period, in an
> honorific. We'd write 'Mrs Stevens', 'Dr Feelgood' and so on . . .
>
> --

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Tim Lodge
June 2nd, 2013, 07:40 AM
In a previous life, I was trained in service writing, as used by the
British Civil Service and Armed Forces. That dropped the full stop/
period in abbreviations some time in the 1960s. Come to think of it,
I seem to remember that that was the NATO standard also.

-- Tim L

On Jun 2, 12:10*pm, Guerri Stevens <gue... (AT) guerristevens (DOT) com> wrote:
> I noticed the absence of the period in something I was reading, which
> may have been by a UK author, now that I think about it.
>
> Guerri
> On 6/1/2013 8:43 AM, Glen Boswell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > * * In the UK we tend not to put a full stop, or period, in an
> > * * honorific. We'd write 'Mrs Stevens', 'Dr Feelgood' and so on . . .
>
> > --

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Glen Boswell
June 2nd, 2013, 06:32 PM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 12:14:16 AM UTC+1, Dodi Schultz wrote:


> Thanks, Steve. I'd already found that list of *abbrs* (which is what I
> was
> referring to when I said Johnny's earlier statement was mistaken).
>

Should there be some sort of meta-period in an abbreviation of
"abbreviations"?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.