[Dixonary] OT - grammar

[John Barrs]

There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially apostrophes!)
but I was concerned to discover for the first time a valid reason for the
"Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a list. I believe it is also
called a "Harvard" comma or a "journalistic" comma on the other side of the
Atlantic; that is, the other side from where I am.

The example given was something along the lines

"I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"

The comma after the "and" ensuring that Kingsley Amis and JK Rowling are
not my parents.

However, I would argue that this is not a true "Oxford" comma because it is
needed to ensure a specific sense. Surely the 'true" Oxford or Harvard
comma does not convey any specific meaning and is merely stylistic (none
the worse for that)

Any thoughts?

Just to spice up your interest: the bbc article made the point that success
in online dating sites is associated with "good" grammar - After all, one
doesn't want to become involved with someone who drops their aitches does
one? -maybe they send you some photo's too

The article also had that wonderful quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr that use of
semi-colons merely indicates that you have been to college. (Yes, I know I
used one above but then I did go to college)

JohnnyB

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[Tony Abell]

On 2013-05-13 at 13:53 John Barrs wrote:

> The example given was something along the lines

> "I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"

Shows how much *I* know. I always thought the Oxford comma came BEFORE the
and, as in:

"I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis, and JK Rowling."

Your example seems very strange, and I don't recall ever seeing that
construction before.

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[Judy Madnick]

Are you sure they weren't referring to a comma *before* the "and" in a list? Then you would have this:

I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis, and JK Rowling.



Judy Madnick



Original message
From: "John Barrs" <johnnybarrs (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com;
Dated: 5/13/2013 1:53:21 PM
Subject: [Dixonary] OT - grammar


There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially apostrophes!) but I was concerned to discover for the first time a valid reason for the "Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a list. I believe it is also called a "Harvard" comma or a "journalistic" comma on the other side of the Atlantic; that is, the other side from where I am.


The example given was something along the lines


"I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"

The comma after the "and" ensuring that Kingsley Amis and JK Rowling are not my parents.


However, I would argue that this is not a true "Oxford" comma because it is needed to ensure a specific sense. Surely the 'true" Oxford or Harvard comma does not convey any specific meaning and is merely stylistic (none the worse for that)


Any thoughts?


Just to spice up your interest: the bbc article made the point that success in online dating sites is associated with "good" grammar - After all, one doesn't want to become involved with someone who drops their aitches does one? -maybe they send you some photo's too



The article also had that wonderful quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr that use of semi-colons merely indicates that you have been to college. (Yes, I know I used one above but then I did go to college)


JohnnyB

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[Judy Madnick]

Tony,

I believe there's a misunderstanding about this. I just did a search for "bbc website oxford comma," and the reference is to a comma *before* the "and," not after. So...you're right!

Judy



Original message
From: "Tony Abell" hello (AT) isanybodyhome (DOT) com

Shows how much *I* know. I always thought the Oxford comma came BEFORE the
and, as in:

"I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis, and JK Rowling."

Your example seems very strange, and I don't recall ever seeing that
construction before.

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[Glen Boswell]

> I agree with the others with regard to the Oxford comma coming before the
> 'and'.
>
>
> And I'd far rather become involved with someone who drops their aitches
> than someone who pronounces 'aitch' with an aitch, as in 'haitch'.
>
>
>
> Glen
>


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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/13/2013 1:53 PM, John Barrs wrote:

> There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially
> apostrophes!) but I was concerned to discover for the first time a valid
> reason for the "Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a list. I
> believe it is also called a "Harvard" comma or a "journalistic" comma on
> the other side of the Atlantic; that is, the other side from where I am.

(a) It doesn't come after the "and". It comes immediately before the "and".
(b) Over here, it's called the serial comma; we're also familiar with the
term "Oxford comma". I'm a writer and editor by trade; I've never heard it
referred to as either a "Harvard" or "journalistic" comma.

BTW, on this side of the pond we spell BBC with upper-case letters.

>
> The example given was something along the lines
>
> "I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling."

As I said, the comma should follow "Amis", not "and".

The classic example of the failure to use the serial/Oxford comma: a book
dedicated "to my parents, Ayn Rand and God". A more recent one (I've seen
it only as a quote, but I'm told it actually occurred in an article):
"Among those interviewed were his ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson and Robert
Duvall."

—Dodi


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[stamps]

So, your parents were Les Amis "Kingsley"?

I would thing that a comma after Amis would be sufficient. Lack of the comma
would imply that AMis and Rowling were your parents.

--
Salsgiver.com Webmail

Fiber Optic Internet and Voice are here!
Find out more at http://www.gotlit.com


---------- Original Message -----------
From: John Barrs <johnnybarrs (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
To: Dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
Sent: Mon, 13 May 2013 18:53:21 +0100
Subject: [Dixonary] OT - grammar

> There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially
> apostrophes!) but I was concerned to discover for the first time a
> valid reason for the "Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a
> list. I believe it is also called a "Harvard" comma or a
> "journalistic" comma on the other side of the Atlantic; that is, the
> other side from where I am.
>
> The example given was something along the lines
>
> "I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"
>
> The comma after the "and" ensuring that Kingsley Amis and JK
> Rowling are not my parents.
>
> However, I would argue that this is not a true "Oxford" comma
> because it is needed to ensure a specific sense. Surely the 'true"
> Oxford or Harvard comma does not convey any specific meaning and is
> merely stylistic (none the worse for that)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Just to spice up your interest: the bbc article made the point that success
> in online dating sites is associated with "good" grammar - After all,
> one doesn't want to become involved with someone who drops their
> aitches does one? -maybe they send you some photo's too
>
> The article also had that wonderful quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr that
> use of semi-colons merely indicates that you have been to college.
> (Yes, I know I used one above but then I did go to college)
>
> JohnnyB
>
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------- End of Original Message -------

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[Frances Wetzstein]

-maybe they send you some photo's too

Note: No apostrophe needed for the plural of photo (photos). It's just a
plural, that's all. The apostrophe indicates some kind of ownership; i.e.
ownership by the photo (as ridiculous as that is).



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[Jim Hart]

Franelle, I like to think JB did that deliberately.


On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:08:52 AM UTC+10, franelle wrote:
>
> -maybe they send you some photo's too
>
> Note: No apostrophe needed for the plural of photo (photos). It's just a
> plural, that's all. The apostrophe indicates some kind of ownership; i.e.
> ownership by the photo (as ridiculous as that is).
>
>
>
>

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[Frances Wetzstein]

OK, but why?????

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[Jim Hart]

Aside from the general total agreement that the final comma goes before
"and" not after, this kind of example is often given as evidence of the why
the serial/list/Oxford/Harvard/etc comma is somehow correct. And as Dodi
remarked the classic version is to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

The argument is that consistent use of such a comma prevents such
ambiguities. And yet for each positive example there is a counter example,
to wit: I dedicate this message to my mother, Ayn Rand, and God. In that
case it is the extra comma that creates ambiguity.

Personally I still favour not using the comma before "and" unless I
consider it's needed for clarity in long lists. Opponents would say my
policy is too subjective and there should be one consistent rule. Fine, I'm
not going to fight over it. This argument like many matters of puncutation
will never be won. I will however continue to regard the plural apostrophe
as a crime against English-speaking humanity.

J'im



On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:53:21 AM UTC+10, JohnnyB wrote:
>
> There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially
> apostrophes!) but I was concerned to discover for the first time a valid
> reason for the "Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a list. I
> believe it is also called a "Harvard" comma or a "journalistic" comma on
> the other side of the Atlantic; that is, the other side from where I am.
>
> The example given was something along the lines
>
> "I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"
>
> The comma after the "and" ensuring that Kingsley Amis and JK Rowling are
> not my parents.
>
> However, I would argue that this is not a true "Oxford" comma because it
> is needed to ensure a specific sense. Surely the 'true" Oxford or Harvard
> comma does not convey any specific meaning and is merely stylistic (none
> the worse for that)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Just to spice up your interest: the bbc article made the point that
> success in online dating sites is associated with "good" grammar - After
> all, one doesn't want to become involved with someone who drops their
> aitches does one? -maybe they send you some photo's too
>
> The article also had that wonderful quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr that use
> of semi-colons merely indicates that you have been to college. (Yes, I know
> I used one above but then I did go to college)
>
> JohnnyB
>
>
>

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[Dave Cunningham]

The "grocer's apostrophe"?

The problem is that commas are used both to delineate items in a list, and
also to denote parenthetical comments. If one dares to use parentheses
for parenthetical comments, the problem disappears.

Dave


On Monday, May 13, 2013 10:20:36 PM UTC-4, Jim Hart wrote:

> Aside from the general total agreement that the final comma goes before
> "and" not after, this kind of example is often given as evidence of the why
> the serial/list/Oxford/Harvard/etc comma is somehow correct. And as Dodi
> remarked the classic version is to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God.
>
> The argument is that consistent use of such a comma prevents such
> ambiguities. And yet for each positive example there is a counter example,
> to wit: I dedicate this message to my mother, Ayn Rand, and God. In that
> case it is the extra comma that creates ambiguity.
>
> Personally I still favour not using the comma before "and" unless I
> consider it's needed for clarity in long lists. Opponents would say my
> policy is too subjective and there should be one consistent rule. Fine, I'm
> not going to fight over it. This argument like many matters of puncutation
> will never be won. I will however continue to regard the plural apostrophe
> as a crime against English-speaking humanity.
>
> J'im
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:53:21 AM UTC+10, JohnnyB wrote:
>>
>> There is an article on bbc website about grammar (especially
>> apostrophes!) but I was concerned to discover for the first time a valid
>> reason for the "Oxford" comma - the one after the "and" in a list. I
>> believe it is also called a "Harvard" comma or a "journalistic" comma on
>> the other side of the Atlantic; that is, the other side from where I am.
>>
>> The example given was something along the lines
>>
>> "I was very influenced by my parents, Kingsley Amis and, JK Rowling"
>>
>> The comma after the "and" ensuring that Kingsley Amis and JK Rowling are
>> not my parents.
>>
>> However, I would argue that this is not a true "Oxford" comma because it
>> is needed to ensure a specific sense. Surely the 'true" Oxford or Harvard
>> comma does not convey any specific meaning and is merely stylistic (none
>> the worse for that)
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Just to spice up your interest: the bbc article made the point that
>> success in online dating sites is associated with "good" grammar - After
>> all, one doesn't want to become involved with someone who drops their
>> aitches does one? -maybe they send you some photo's too
>>
>> The article also had that wonderful quote from Kurt Vonnegut Jr that use
>> of semi-colons merely indicates that you have been to college. (Yes, I know
>> I used one above but then I did go to college)
>>
>> JohnnyB
>>
>>
>>

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[Jim Hart]

As the punctuation equivalent of dropped aitches when he said "one doesn't
want to become involved with someone who drops their aitches does one?
-maybe they send you some photo's too"

Well that's my reading of it anyway.

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:13:57 PM UTC+10, franelle wrote:
>
> *OK, but why?????*
>

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/13/2013 10:23 PM, Dave Cunningham wrote:
> The "grocer's apostrophe"?

The grocer's apostrophe is the one employed by one of my local
supermarkets: BEEF STAKE [sic] TOMATO'S. (I'm not sure what you'd call the
sign on the door: NO DOG'S ALLOWED.)

> The problem is that commas are used both to delineate items in a list,
> and also to denote parenthetical comments. If one dares to use
> parentheses for parenthetical comments, the problem disappears.

I wouldn't use commas for parenthetical comments. I'd use either
parentheses or em dashes.



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[Hugo Kornelis]

As a non-native speaker, I should probably just stay silent and watch
from the sideline, but I simply can't resist the urge to jump in.

NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.


By the way, I personally really like using a comma before and in a list
of more than two entries. It makes the list easier to read and
understand to me. Unfortunately, Dutch grammar rules do not allow this
at all, and there is no exception made ever. So the use of this comma in
English may be controversial, but that's at least a lot better than what
we Dutch have.

(Oh, and if you ever catch me using an apostrophe for a plural - I'll
blame that on Dutch grammar rules too. That is the one area in English
where I know of myself that I often accidentally apply my Dutch mindset
to English grammar. I try to take extra care, and I often doublecheck
(is that a correct word, by the way, or should I use a hyphen or even
two words??). But some apostrophes slip through.)

Cheers,
Hugo



Op 14-5-2013 4:30, Dodi Schultz schreef:
> On 5/13/2013 10:23 PM, Dave Cunningham wrote:
>> The "grocer's apostrophe"?
>
> The grocer's apostrophe is the one employed by one of my local
> supermarkets: BEEF STAKE [sic] TOMATO'S. (I'm not sure what you'd call
> the sign on the door: NO DOG'S ALLOWED.)
>
>> The problem is that commas are used both to delineate items in a
>> list, and also to denote parenthetical comments. If one dares to use
>> parentheses for parenthetical comments, the problem disappears.
>
> I wouldn't use commas for parenthetical comments. I'd use either
> parentheses or em dashes.
>
>
>

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[Guerri Stevens]

Frances, off the topic, but I've been wondering: what is it that you do
that makes your replies include an attachment? The way I receive them, I
get an *attachment* containing the message to which you replied. I do
not have attachments appear inline, as some people do, so others may not
see your messages the same way.

Usually when one replies to a message and wants to include some or all
of the original message as part of the reply, the original is part of
the body of the message with some kind of markings to identify the
original message, perhaps angle brackets, or as my version of
Thunderbird shows me in my reply to you, a vertical line at the left of
the original material. This vertical line may not show up under your
software.

Guerri

On 5/13/2013 9:08 PM, Frances Wetzstein wrote:
> -maybe they send you some photo's too
>
> Note: No apostrophe needed for the plural of photo (photos). It's just a
> plural, that's all. The apostrophe indicates some kind of ownership; i.e.
> ownership by the photo (as ridiculous as that is).
>
>

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[Guerri Stevens]

If you wanted to identify your parents by name, wouldn't you say "thank
my parents: Ayn Rand and God"? Now of course I have to consider whether
the question mark belongs before or after the quotation mark (grrr).

Guerri
On 5/13/2013 10:20 PM, Jim Hart wrote:
> Aside from the general total agreement that the final comma goes
> before "and" not after, this kind of example is often given as
> evidence of the why the serial/list/Oxford/Harvard/etc comma is
> somehow correct. And as Dodi remarked the classic version is to thank
> my parents, Ayn Rand and God.

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[Frances Wetzstein]

NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.


I must disagree with the above. Dogs, meaning more than one is a
simple plural and no apostrophe should be used.

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 2:38 AM, Hugo Kornelis wrote:

>
> NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
> this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.

Hm. Quite right! Hadn't thought of that. (But then neither had the
supermarket manager!)

>
> I try to take extra care, and I often doublecheck (is that a correct
> word, by the way, or should I use a hyphen or even two words??).

Hyphen. :-)

Hugo, your English is far superior to that of some of the folks whose
verbal output is appearing in public US print these days.

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[Efrem Mallach]

The point is that DOG'S, as a contraction for DOG IS, also creates a valid sentence.

Efrem

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
On May 14, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Frances Wetzstein wrote:

>
>
> NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
> this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.
>
>
> I must disagree with the above. Dogs, meaning more than one is a
> simple plural and no apostrophe should be used.
>
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>
>
> <Mail Attachment.eml>

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[Hugo Kornelis]

Hah! I managed to fool at least one on the list with my deliberately
cryptic message! :-P

You are of course right that dog's as the plural for dog is
grammatically wrong. But the sentence "no dog's allowed" can be
interpreted in another way as well - as a short form for "no dog is
allowed". And that is completely correct English!

Cheers,
Hugo

Op 14-5-2013 15:22, Frances Wetzstein schreef:
>
> NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
> this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.
>
>
> I must disagree with the above. Dogs, meaning more than one is a
> simple plural and no apostrophe should be used.
>

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 9:22 AM, Frances Wetzstein wrote:

> [Hugo wrote] NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
> this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.
>
> I must disagree with the above. Dogs, meaning more than one is a
> simple plural and no apostrophe should be used.

Fran, as you and I know, the store manager meant plural (and I, knowing
that, cited the sign as an error). But Hugo's right: "Dog's" is a
contraction of "dog is" (as in, e.g., "the dog's in his kennel"), and one
COULD interpret the sign as meaning "no dog is allowed".

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[Jim Hart]

> NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it. In
this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.

Very good, Hugo!

> Unfortunately, Dutch grammar rules do not allow this

I'm curious. What is the Dutch rule for a list of 3 or more things? I
assume you use commas as well as "and" or is there another completely
different method? And how do you avoid ambiguities in complex nested lists?


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[Hugo Kornelis]

Hi Jim,

>>I'm curious. What is the Dutch rule for a list of 3 or more things? I
assume you use commas as well as "and" or is there another completely
different method?<<

Commas between all elements except the last two, which are separated by
"and" with no punctuation. So the Dutch would, indeed, dedicate their
writings to their parents, Ayn Rand and God.

>>And how do you avoid ambiguities in complex nested lists?<<

We don't. :-D

Of course, with or without Oxford comma, there's always bound to be
ambiguities. The Wikipedia page on this subject has great examples of
lists that are ambiguous without the extra comma, lists that become
ambiguous when adding it, and even a list that is ambiguous both with
and without the comma ("They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid and a
cook" / "They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid, and a cook").
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

Cheers,
Hugo


Op 14-5-2013 15:38, Jim Hart schreef:
> > NO DOG'S ALLOWED is perfect English, nothing at all wrong with it.
> In this store, humans are allowed, but no dog is.
>
> Very good, Hugo!
>
> > Unfortunately, Dutch grammar rules do not allow this
>
> I'm curious. What is the Dutch rule for a list of 3 or more things? I
> assume you use commas as well as "and" or is there another completely
> different method? And how do you avoid ambiguities in complex nested
> lists?
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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 9:18 AM, Guerri Stevens wrote:
> If you wanted to identify your parents by name, wouldn't you say "thank
> my parents: Ayn Rand and God"? Now of course I have to consider whether
> the question mark belongs before or after the quotation mark (grrr).

After.

No. I think the normal punctuation there is a comma.

And BTW, wrong insertion of a comma could confuse as well. Two well-known
performers who were in the news yesterday (the Prez visited their home)
come to mind. If one of their offspring decides to write a book some day
(if people are still reading books when he or she grows up), you would NOT
want any comma after the first name in "dedicated to my parents, Sarah
Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick".

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 9:46 AM, Hugo Kornelis wrote:

> The Wikipedia page on this subject has great examples of lists that are
> ambiguous without the extra comma, lists that become ambiguous when
> adding it, and even a list that is ambiguous both with and without the
> comma ("They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid and a cook" / "They went
> to Oregon with Betty, a maid, and a cook").

Fascinating. That could mean anywhere from one to three people!

In a case like this you'd have to either do some serious reshuffling or
resort to semicolons.

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[Judy Madnick]

Quote:
Of course, with or without Oxford comma, there's always bound to be ambiguities. The Wikipedia page on this subject has great examples of lists that are ambiguous without the extra comma, lists that become ambiguous when adding it, and even a list that is ambiguous both with and without the comma ("They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid and a cook" / "They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid, and a cook"). Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

If everyone used the serial comma consistently (as appropriate), its omission would make it clear that the last two items should be "connected." The issues arise because not everyone handles the serial comma the same way. I do agree that some sentences can be rewritten to avoid ambiguity (as mentioned in the wikipedia article), but there are times that you can't edit wording (e.g., in court transcripts).

Judy Madnick
Jacksonville, FL

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[Jim Hart]

Guerri:

> If you wanted to identify your parents by name, wouldn't you say "thank
my parents: Ayn Rand and God"? Now of course I have to consider whether the
question mark belongs before or after the quotation mark (grrr).

Yes of course you _could_ say it that way and it would be unambiguous, but
the comma is the usual choice while the colon, being a stronger mark, is
(to me) somewhat intrusive. Similarly in my second example I _could_ also
say "thank my mother: Ayn Rand" but a comma works better and this time it
is quite unambiguous.

Furthermore, the colon won't help if the sentence then continues, e.g. "I
must thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God as well as my English teacher, Miss
Take." And BTW I would probably add a comma after God but the ambiguity
would still remain.

And the question mark definitely goes outside the quote since you asked a
question about the quoted matter that is not a question. If you made a
statement about a quoted question then it goes inside. And if you asked a
question about a quoted question then logically there would be two question
marks, one in and one out, but one can do for both - I'd put it inside but
opinions may vary.


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[Jim Hart]

Dodi,

> I wouldn't use commas for parenthetical comments. I'd use either
parentheses or em dashes.

I wonder if my adviser, Dodi Schultz, would shun my commas in this sentence
even though parentheses - or a pair of dashes - would not be incorrect.



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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 10:23 AM, Jim Hart wrote:
> Dodi,
>
> > I wouldn't use commas for parenthetical comments. I'd use either
> parentheses or em dashes.
>
> I wonder if my adviser, Dodi Schultz, would shun my commas in this
> sentence even though parentheses - or a pair of dashes - would not be
> incorrect.

Dodi doesn't consider "or a pair of dashes" parenthetical and would use
commas or no punctuation at all around that phrase.

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[—Keith Hale—]

I looked for the book called "Eats Shoots & Leaves - from a story joke
where a panda goes into a restaurant, orders, eats the meal, pulls a gun
and shoots the place up, and then quietly walks out.

I found lots of fun stuff, i faired very badly on the comma quiz here:
http://www.savethecomma.com/game/
but i am unconvinced it is accurate - in all English-speaking nations, and
the US.

Somewhere i read that to alleviate ALL these comma conundrums, that lists
should be marked with semicolons (higher education notwithstanding). It
can help when the list includes phrases that contain commas, periods, or
other punctuation.

I find it comforting that there are still people concerned with grammar -
in an age where w8 spells "weight" or "wait" and YOLO is said to actually
mean something.

LOL.

[C8

-Keith-

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/14/2013 12:41 PM, Keith Hale wrote:

> I faired very badly on the comma quiz here:
> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is accurate . . .

Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect"
answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct" answers
are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.

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[Tim B]

,
> Somewhere i read that to alleviate ALL these comma conundrums, that lists
> should be marked with semicolons (higher education notwithstanding). It
> can help when the list includes phrases that contain commas, periods, or
> other punctuation.

That is the method specified in the ISO "standard for standards".

Best wishes,
Tim Bourne.

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[Frances Wetzstein]

Gee whiz, I have no idea. Sorry.

Frances

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[Jim Hart]

Dodi would of course be quite correct but one hopes she would allow that
Jim's use of dashes in this instance is not actually wrong and acceptable
for illustrative effect.


On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:46:01 AM UTC+10, Dodi Schultz wrote:
>
> On 5/14/2013 10:23 AM, Jim Hart wrote:
> > Dodi,
> >
> > > I wouldn't use commas for parenthetical comments. I'd use either
> > parentheses or em dashes.
> >
> > I wonder if my adviser, Dodi Schultz, would shun my commas in this
> > sentence even though parentheses - or a pair of dashes - would not be
> > incorrect.
>
> Dodi doesn't consider "or a pair of dashes" parenthetical and would use
> commas or no punctuation at all around that phrase.
>
>

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[Jim Hart]

Keith,

> I looked for the book called "Eats Shoots & Leaves

a similar phrase in Australia refers to the wombat that eats roots and
leaves. It also applies to the impolite habits of some male humans, owing
to the vulgar vernacular use of the verb to root. Let us just say that to
state that someone - especially a woman - roots for a football team would
raise a few eyebrows, not to mention chuckles.

Jim

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[Guerri Stevens]

I have been told that if you say "thank my mother, Ayn Rand", using the
comma, the presence of the comma implies that you have multiple mothers
and you are thanking just one of them.

Guerri

On 5/14/2013 10:06 AM, Jim Hart wrote:
> Yes of course you _could_ say it that way and it would be unambiguous,
> but the comma is the usual choice while the colon, being a stronger
> mark, is (to me) somewhat intrusive. Similarly in my second example I
> _could_ also say "thank my mother: Ayn Rand" but a comma works better
> and this time it is quite unambiguous.
>

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/15/2013 7:50 AM, Guerri Stevens wrote:
> I have been told that if you say "thank my mother, Ayn Rand", using the
> comma, the presence of the comma implies that you have multiple mothers
> and you are thanking just one of them.

Uh, it's actually the opposite.

I'm best friends with my sister, Susie. (I have one sister, named Susie;
she's my best friend.)

I'm best friends with my sister Susie. (I have several sisters, but only
Susie's my best friend.)



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[—Keith Hale—]

http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is accurate . . .
>
>
> Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect"
answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct" answers
are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.

But are these rules correct in English speaking countries? Such as England
& UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?

Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?

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[—Keith Hale—]

On 14 May 2013 21:02, "Jim Hart" <jfshart (AT) gmail (DOT)

> a similar phrase in Australia refers to the wombat that eats roots and
leaves. It also applies to the impolite habits of some male humans, owing
to the vulgar vernacular use of the verb to root. Let us just say that to
state that someone - especially a woman - roots for a football team would
raise a few eyebrows, not to mention chuckles.
>
> Jim

I am the guy that can't stand sports, really, but Aussie Rules Football is
a surreal blast to watch. Scoring seems more complicated than an Income
Tax form!

I like the wombatic variation.

As an excessively eccentric person (I strive to spell with Global English,
for example) i am guilty of the jab contained in the satirical Gilbert &
Sullivan song "I've Got a Little List" from the Mikado.
"The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone -
all centuries but this, and every country but his own..."

Well, i take the rebuke. But i am very curious about English grammar and
spelling outside the US. And i think Noah Webster did us a great
disservice by arbitrarily removing Us from colour and swapping zeds for
esses in so many words. We are just fortunate that his many other
suggestions weren't adopted! His simplification scheme is ironically
similar to the (personally distasteful) 'InternetSpeak' of contemporary
(pointless to hope it is temporary) twitter and texting fame. Sigh.
Never a T.A.R.D.I.S. around when one is needed.

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/15/2013 11:29 AM, —Keith Hale— wrote:
>
> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is accurate . . .
> >
> >
> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect"
> answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct"
> answers are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.
>
> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries? Such as
> England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>
WHAT rules?

The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I
believe that England is /part/ of the UK.

English is the official language of Switzerland?

> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>

WHAT plural semicolon? If you go back to that site again, you'll find a
whole different set of questions.


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[Jim Hart]

Keith -
I don't think TARDIS needs full stops (periods if you prefer) as it is an
acronym that is pronounced as a word, like NATO. It is probably in the
language enough to be granted lower-case status - the linguistic equivalent
of citizenship.

Jim



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[John Barrs]

Dodi

The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I
believe that England is /part/ of the UK.


a census projection for USA :"Of the nation's children in 2050, 62% are
expected to be of a minority ethnicity, up from 44% today." - what
constitutes a "minority ethnicity" when the "non-minority" is significantly
less than half?

England is no-longer a country - mind you, with what is proposed it may be
the only remaining part of the UK in the relatively near future. And here
is a delight to me. Scotland assumed it would be part of the EU but has
been told it will have to apply while the Tories are trying to get us out
of the EU - border controls and currency exchange at Carlisle?

JohnnyB



On 15 May 2013 17:13, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> On 5/15/2013 11:29 AM, —Keith Hale— wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.savethecomma.com/**game/ <http://www.savethecomma.com/game/>but I am unconvinced it is accurate . . .
>> >
>> >
>> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect"
>> answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct" answers
>> are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.
>>
>> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries? Such as
>> England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>>
>> WHAT rules?
>
> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I
> believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>
> English is the official language of Switzerland?
>
>
> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>>
>>
> WHAT plural semicolon? If you go back to that site again, you'll find a
> whole different set of questions.
>
>
>
> --
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[Efrem Mallach]

You may laugh about the currency exchange thing, but I have had Scottish banknotes refused by small merchants in England. ("Clydesdale Bank? Did you print this yourself?")

I had to exchange them for "real" pounds at a bank. The teller laughed and said "you're not the first."

Efrem

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
On May 16, 2013, at 9:21 AM, John Barrs wrote:

> Dodi
>
> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>
>
> a census projection for USA :"Of the nation's children in 2050, 62% are expected to be of a minority ethnicity, up from 44% today." - what constitutes a "minority ethnicity" when the "non-minority" is significantly less than half?
>
> England is no-longer a country - mind you, with what is proposed it may be the only remaining part of the UK in the relatively near future. And here is a delight to me. Scotland assumed it would be part of the EU but has been told it will have to apply while the Tories are trying to get us out of the EU - border controls and currency exchange at Carlisle?
>
> JohnnyB
>
>
>
> On 15 May 2013 17:13, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:
> On 5/15/2013 11:29 AM, —Keith Hale— wrote:
>
> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is accurate . . .
> >
> >
> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect" answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct" answers are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.
>
> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries? Such as England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>
> WHAT rules?
>
> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>
> English is the official language of Switzerland?
>
>
> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>
>
> WHAT plural semicolon? If you go back to that site again, you'll find a whole different set of questions.
>
>
>
> --
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>
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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/16/2013 9:21 AM, John Barrs wrote:

> A census projection for USA :"Of the nation's children in 2050, 62% are
> expected to be of a minority ethnicity, up from 44% today." What
> constitutes a "minority ethnicity" when the "non-minority" is
> significantly less than half?

Johnny, we were talking about language, not ethnicity. The vast majority of
people in the US speak English. (Many speak other languages as well, of
course, but only a diminishing minority speak only a foreign language.) I'm
pretty sure that we'll continue to be an English-speaking nation, whatever
the hue or heritage of our people.

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[Dodi Schultz]

On 5/16/2013 5:25 AM, Jim Hart wrote:
> I don't think TARDIS needs full stops (periods if you prefer) as it is an
> acronym that is pronounced as a word, like NATO. It is probably in the
> language enough to be granted lower-case status - the linguistic
> equivalent of citizenship.

Maybe there; not here. I had to look it up. But then I'm not a "Doctor Who"
fan.

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[Chuck]

On 5/16/2013 9:30 AM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> You may laugh about the currency exchange thing, but I have had
> Scottish banknotes refused by small merchants in England. ("Clydesdale
> Bank? Did you print this yourself?")
>
> I had to exchange them for "real" pounds at a bank. The teller laughed
> and said "you're not the first."
>
> Efrem
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> On May 16, 2013, at 9:21 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>
>> Dodi
>>
>> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I
>> believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>>
>>
>> a census projection for USA :"Of the nation's children in 2050, 62%
>> are expected to be of a minority ethnicity, up from 44% today." -
>> what constitutes a "minority ethnicity" when the "non-minority" is
>> significantly less than half?
>>
>> England is no-longer a country - mind you, with what is proposed it
>> may be the only remaining part of the UK in the relatively near
>> future. And here is a delight to me. Scotland assumed it would be
>> part of the EU but has been told it will have to apply while the
>> Tories are trying to get us out of the EU - border controls and
>> currency exchange at Carlisle?
>>
>> JohnnyB
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 May 2013 17:13, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net
>> <mailto:DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/2013 11:29 AM, —Keith Hale— wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is
>> accurate . . .
>> >
>> >
>> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the
>> "incorrect" answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all
>> of the "correct" answers are grammatically okay although not
>> the sole correct answers.
>>
>> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries?
>> Such as England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>>
>> WHAT rules?
>>
>> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country.
>> And I believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>>
>> English is the official language of Switzerland?
>>
>>
>> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>>
>>
>> WHAT plural semicolon? If you go back to that site again, you'll
>> find a whole different set of questions.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Google Groups "Dixonary" group.
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>>
>>
>>
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[Chuck]

For the Silver Jubilee there were Crown coins distributed, I believe,
through the post office. I tried giving them out for things like
tipping taxi drivers, and got "we don't use any of your foreign money
here" and similar. A pocket full of them nearly deprives one of their
pants.

- Chuck

On 5/16/2013 9:30 AM, Efrem Mallach wrote:
> You may laugh about the currency exchange thing, but I have had
> Scottish banknotes refused by small merchants in England. ("Clydesdale
> Bank? Did you print this yourself?")
>
> I had to exchange them for "real" pounds at a bank. The teller laughed
> and said "you're not the first."
>
> Efrem
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> On May 16, 2013, at 9:21 AM, John Barrs wrote:
>
>> Dodi
>>
>> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country. And I
>> believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>>
>>
>> a census projection for USA :"Of the nation's children in 2050, 62%
>> are expected to be of a minority ethnicity, up from 44% today." -
>> what constitutes a "minority ethnicity" when the "non-minority" is
>> significantly less than half?
>>
>> England is no-longer a country - mind you, with what is proposed it
>> may be the only remaining part of the UK in the relatively near
>> future. And here is a delight to me. Scotland assumed it would be
>> part of the EU but has been told it will have to apply while the
>> Tories are trying to get us out of the EU - border controls and
>> currency exchange at Carlisle?
>>
>> JohnnyB
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 May 2013 17:13, Dodi Schultz <DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net
>> <mailto:DodiSchultz (AT) verizon (DOT) net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/2013 11:29 AM, —Keith Hale— wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is
>> accurate . . .
>> >
>> >
>> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the
>> "incorrect" answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all
>> of the "correct" answers are grammatically okay although not
>> the sole correct answers.
>>
>> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries?
>> Such as England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>>
>> WHAT rules?
>>
>> The US, last I heard, was (mainly) an English-speaking country.
>> And I believe that England is /part/ of the UK.
>>
>> English is the official language of Switzerland?
>>
>>
>> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>>
>>
>> WHAT plural semicolon? If you go back to that site again, you'll
>> find a whole different set of questions.
>>
>>
>>
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[Jim Hart]

Keith - getting back to your questions, and bypassing quibbles about
geography, my take is that basic rules are consistent in all
English-speaking countries but many rules might be better called
conventions. But then what is any rule other than a widely accepted
convention? In Australia we generally follow British usage but not
exclusively.

It's fairly easy to make a rule about something as basic as the full stop
(aka period) because it only has one role in terms of sentence structure
and its use has hardly changed over time. The pesky comma however performs
many functions and this can lead to ambiguities as we have seen which in
turn lead to "rules". For example some would say there should always be a
comma before a "which" clause; others are less dogmatic about that one.

The comma is also subject to stylistic fashion: some writers like to use
lots of them, others use as few as possible. Writers today generally use
fewer than say a century ago. The New Yorker magazine however must buy them
by the container-load.

As for the semicolon, I don't know the term "plural semicolon" but it is
quite common to use it like a super-comma to help avoid ambiguity in long
complex lists if some of the items are themselves sub-lists. That doesn't
mean you have to, just that it's an option.

Aside from these general rules/conventions, some organisations make their
own set of rules. Some of these are so comprehensive they get widely
adopted as the standard, e.g. Chicago Manual of Style, but even then there
is no single authority.

Happy punctuating,

Jim



On Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:29:25 AM UTC+10, thoughtstorms(Keith) wrote:
>
> http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ but I am unconvinced it is accurate . .
> .
> >
> >
> > Yeah, it's basically accurate in the sense that all of the "incorrect"
> answers are, in fact, glaringly incorrect and all of the "correct" answers
> are grammatically okay although not the sole correct answers.
>
> But are these rules correct in English speaking countries? Such as
> England & UK; Australia; Canada; and Switzerland?
>
> Also, that plural semicolon -- was it correct?
>
>
>

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