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ndebord
September 13th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Everyone,

I really need help on backup for my laptop. I have an external PCMCIA connected 2.5" HD from Hitachi (TravelStar) that will take my entire hard drive without having to resort to compression. Below is my latest solution, of sorts, after initially a month ago using XCLONE to do the first complete backup.

XXCOPY == Freeware == Ver 2.85.9d (c)1995-2005 Pixelab, Inc.

Running XXCOPY in a DOS box inside W98se, using the XXCOPY c: e: /CLONE switch "seems" to work as an incremental backup of my entire hard drive to an external hard drive on Drive E.

This after playing with all kinds of complicated backup utilities, some free, some shareware and a couple commercial that I inherited throughi purchasing other products. I guess what I'm asking is this too easy to believe? Or have I stumbled upon a simple method of backing up that seems to work and does preserve LFN. It's not an image like Ghost would do, but I don't think that is a style of backup I need at this point in time. Incremental, so long as it gets all the files and all the folders seems to work for me.

Am I all wet here? I was leary because XXCOPY, this version, is a DOS program, but it did handle LFN and I didn't really expect that to work.

Guerri Stevens
September 13th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I really need help on backup for my laptop.
You may be all wet, but then I would be also. I have an external hard drive connected to a USB port. I use (are you sitting down?) .BAT files to back it up. One set does a full backup, and prompts me about each logical drive (I may take that logic out one day soon). Another set does an incremental backup. These things just back up data and they produce error messages for things like the trash folder.

There have been only two commercial backup products that I have liked. One was Dual Stor, which was an OS/2 application that backed up to tape, and I don't think it has ever been modified to run on Windows or to deal with devices other than tape. The other was an old DOS version of Fastback.

What I like about my approach is that data is just copied over to the backup device. No compression, no proprietary file format.

ndebord
September 13th, 2005, 08:14 PM
You may be all wet, but then I would be also. I have an external hard drive connected to a USB port. I use (are you sitting down?) .BAT files to back it up. One set does a full backup, and prompts me about

[QUOTE=Guerri Stevens]What I like about my approach is that data is just copied over to the backup device. No compression, no proprietary file format.

Guerri,

I like the real time, incremental and non-compression philosophy of your batch file backup routine. I was looking at that, but it was more work than I was willing to do. I wanted a program to do it all and I think I was overlooking at small and very nice improvement on XCOPY. XXCOPY I think has done exactly what I was looking for all along.

Fastback I remember from some time ago. I also used something called Novastor (if memory serves) but it used a proprietary system and I did not want to return to that. I also used a batch file routine that invoked PKZIP 2.5 (DOS), but after many years of using ZIP, I have reached a non-scientific opinion that it works well almost all of the time, but when it fails, you're a dead duck. Hate to say it, but the SEA people way back when were right when they said that ARC was better than ZIP (as in more reliable), but because they tried to squash it at is onset, they lost the archive war of that time.

fhaber
September 14th, 2005, 11:39 AM
I haven't used XXCOPY for years, but it did handle long file names when I used it, DOS or nay. Since you're Win98 and FAT32, you don't have permissions issues. Should work.

There are freeware programs out there that will do this semi-graphically, with compare afterwards, if you like. I can't specifically recommend any, though. Some will even ZIP up the target and display a tree for restore, which makes the backup almost as accessible as an uncompressed one. Some of these are disguised as filemanagers or directory-compare programs (g). Choose your poison - are your fingers used to Norton Commander or Xtree? There are programs for both persuasions.

If you find something super, do let us know.

heinz57g
September 14th, 2005, 12:04 PM
XXCOPY is perfect for the things you describe, N. keep it that way. maybe run it out of a batch file (guerri will assist), or even better, use 4DOS (now freeware) and BTM files or multistaged aliases, but overall, you will find nothing much better and safer than XXCOPY. and it gives you time for a drink in-between.

greetings - heinz -

Gary Maltzen
September 14th, 2005, 01:21 PM
I really need help on backup for my laptop.
...which is running ???

DOS and Windows have different requirements.
Win95 and WinXP have different requirements.
Linux and MacOS have different requirements.

ndebord
September 14th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Frank,

Yes, XXCOPY, the DOS version seems to handle LFNS so long as it is in a DOS box in Windows (FAT32).

Didn't know about the permissions thing, but that will probably come when or rather IF I have to move to NT. I've got W2000 Pro sitting here IF that day comes about.

I have used both Xtree and Norton Commander and clones thereof. Could use them if pushed to do this. The only variation on them that seems to handle LFNS properly is File Wizard (v 1.35). Haven't thought to try and use it for backup, but will look at that now.

I would be curious to know what programs will do backup semi-graphically. That does sound like something I should look at. Right now I gotta say that XXCOPY has done what I wanted with no squabbling, so on the theory that if it ain't broke, I'll probably not look elsewhere. Caveat. IF there is something better that will make the transition to NT, perhaps I should learn how to use it now, rather than later!

ndebord
September 14th, 2005, 11:04 PM
XXCOPY is perfect for the things you describe, N. keep it that way. maybe run it out of a batch file (guerri will assist), or even better, use 4DOS (now freeware) and BTM files or multistaged aliases, but overall, you will find nothing much better and safer than XXCOPY. and it gives you time for a drink in-between.

greetings - heinz -


Heinz,

Funny you should mention 4DOS. I had thought of loading it up once again as you properly note, now that it's Freeware. Had not gotten around to it and may or may not. Can't seem to make up my mind on it right now.

Glad to hear you like XXCOPY. Makes me feel more comfortable about using it for now in the FAT32 world.

<g>

ndebord
September 14th, 2005, 11:05 PM
...which is running ???

DOS and Windows have different requirements.
Win95 and WinXP have different requirements.
Linux and MacOS have different requirements.


Gary,

Thanks. I'm running W98se.

Gary Maltzen
September 14th, 2005, 11:21 PM
I'm running W98se.
That rules out NTBACKUP which comes with NT/2K/XP.

I have a copy of Stomp's BackupMyPC which works well.
("Formerly BackUpExec by VERITAS").

Win95(OSR2)/Win98SE/ME/2000/XP

Back up to HD, CD/DVD, tape, Zip and Jaz.

fhaber
September 15th, 2005, 11:25 AM
>I would be curious to know what programs will do backup semi-graphically.

I'm not recommending any right now. I was kinda hoping you'd do a little spelunking. There are lots of directory-compare programs out there. PC Mag used to have one. I used to use this one a lot under 98, and liked it then (and it's free).

http://tp.lc.ehu.es/anonym/win95/drcmp305.exe

It's not too intutive on bidirectional update, though. Many two-pane filemanagers can do this much better, some with full "synch" mode.

I also like the manual methods you do as well. They seem to be more reliable, if you can spare the time, if the number of files is reasonable, and if the stuff you need backed up isn't spattered all over the network. Unfortunately.......

Reviewers, Mac people, and others with warped minds (g) always seem to go for Dantz (Retrospect). A Lite version comes with many external HDs these days. It works, and the interface is less terminally muddy than it used to be. How's that for a ringing endorsement?

heinz57g
September 15th, 2005, 01:23 PM
i am running so many computers with beautiful and colorful graphical interfaces, that even sometimes I am impressed. and most do what i want, with a few extras here and there. the occasional hiccup, the bluescreen when somebody else installed something in-between, and the freezing machine whenever i am trying to show off are ignored.

and then i come back to other boxes, press B <ENTER> for backup, and some little progs (like XXCOPY, PCOPY, 4DOS and others) take over, from simple batch/BTM files that took me minutes to write, and it all works. all the time, everytime, even with things i wrote in 1990.

and i sit and wonder ... yes, warped minds it must be.

greetings - heinz -

Jeff
September 15th, 2005, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=fhaber Reviewers, Mac people, and others with warped minds (g) always seem to go for Dantz (Retrospect). A Lite version comes with many external HDs these days. It works, and the interface is less terminally muddy than it used to be. How's that for a ringing endorsement?[/QUOTE]

That's what came with my WD 160gig USB external HD. It seems to be fine, just as soon as you realize that some large part of what they say is going to happen is about opposite of what really will happen, or what they say just doesn't apply at all. It does verify, and it does announce errors. It does not say whether the errors were fixed from which I conclude that they were not. My last tape drive backup pgm would announce errors, and which of them were fixed and why the others were not. It does backup and compare ~4.5gigs in ~30 minutes, in 614.4k chunks.

ndebord
September 15th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Frank,

Well, the thing is I have been doing some spelunking and haven't exactly impressed myself with my astuteness. I was hoping to short-circuit the process a bit. My manual method involves a descendent of PC MAG's DR utility, this one is called DW (Directory Wizard) which allows you to load up external programs that can work on individual files and/or individual folders using XXCOPY or any other utility that can handle switches. A nice addition to using XXCOPY or XCLONE for the real backup and/or incremental backup.

The only Norton clone I know of that works properly is a bit finicky. That would be the Czech (I think ) File Wizard. But it does actually show LFNS and if you liked Norton Commander, it has some, but not all of the keystrokes.

I'm downloading drcomp as we speak. Thanks!

heinz57g
September 16th, 2005, 01:38 AM
... and as a NC clone (or improvement), also try TOTAL COMMANDER, which has just about everything you mention, from LFNS to file and directory compare and sync, full ZIP etc support (important for backups), plus a very useful (for old computers that lack everything else) parallel port networking link, as far down as the simplest DOS machine.

greetings - heinz -

Peter Creasey
September 16th, 2005, 08:51 AM
N, I don't have the answer to your question, but as a related item, the WD 80 GB Dual Option External USB Hard Drive is on sale at Circuit City plus with $40 rebates. Thus, the price is around $49 for only another day or so, I believe.

ndebord
September 16th, 2005, 10:09 AM
... and as a NC clone (or improvement), also try TOTAL COMMANDER, which has just about everything you mention, from LFNS to file and directory compare and sync, full ZIP etc support (important for backups), plus a very useful (for old computers that lack everything else) parallel port networking link, as far down as the simplest DOS machine.

greetings - heinz -

Heinz,

Had not yet looked at Total Commander, but will do so now.

Tks,

Dan in Saint Louis
September 16th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Am I missing something here? I've been using the built-in backup of WinXP, and have tested the restore and I can restore even individual files. With several computers on a home network, I just send A's backup to the hard drive of B and vice-versa.

Gary Maltzen
September 16th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Am I missing something here? I've been using the built-in backup of WinXP...
Nick's Win98se doesn't have that feature

Dan in Saint Louis
September 16th, 2005, 06:05 PM
Nick's Win98se doesn't have that featureMea culpa

ndebord
September 16th, 2005, 11:15 PM
N, I don't have the answer to your question, but as a related item, the WD 80 GB Dual Option External USB Hard Drive is on sale at Circuit City plus with $40 rebates. Thus, the price is around $49 for only another day or so, I believe.

Peter,

Thanks for the idea. But USB on this aging laptop is 1.1 and is slow as molasses. The PCMCIA card connects to an external 2.5 HD from Hitachi (Travelstar) which is really fast and reliable. So I'm covered in terms of hardware. Software, however, is another story, although I admit to being surprised that XXCOPY has done so well.

ndebord
September 16th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Am I missing something here? I've been using the built-in backup of WinXP, and have tested the restore and I can restore even individual files. With several computers on a home network, I just send A's backup to the hard drive of B and vice-versa.

Dan,

Multiple computers on a home network. <drool> Well, I've always had laptops. First one was a DataVue Spark with 2 whopping 720k floppy disk drives! And a reallly fast 300 baud modem! Backup was a snap! Just stick another floppy in the b: drive!

Anyhow, so far so good with XXCOPY. Will have to find something else, but that can wait for a new laptop and a new OS.

Peter Creasey
September 17th, 2005, 10:29 AM
N, I held out for a very long time with Win98 but now have upgraded with new PCs and WinXP Pro. I can tell you they are like a breath of fresh air with their capabilities, speed, stability, etc.

fhaber
September 17th, 2005, 10:54 AM
Belatedly:

Agree - Total Commander is fine. It pioneered the "ftp as part of the filemanager" feature, and has a nice Win3 look for us old f*rts. Oh, yes - it also works.

Dan in Saint Louis
September 17th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Multiple computers on a home network. <drool>Mine. Wife's (sharing a computer when one spouse is right-brained and the other is left-brained is NOT a good idea). And now, a laptop downstairs as we are camping out in the living room while the dog recovers from knee surgery. Numbers 4 and 5 would be the odd hardware visiting from friends and neighbors to be repaired (or in most cases to have the garbage taken out).

heinz57g
September 17th, 2005, 11:31 AM
TOTAL COMMANDER is perfect. i have yet to find somebody who really (!) tried it to come up with a different opinion. even those diehards. once more: for those who disagree, just try it.

it has another advantage: the owner of the program seems to be able to live happily with the fact that though it is shareware, not all people register and pay. it only shows a nag screen on startup, and works and works and works, for years if you want. even updates keept you settings.

most people will a pay eventually, but the others who just use it 5 times a year make so much advertisement for it, that he eventually (and hopefully) comes out ahead. wish most authors would think that way.

greetings - heinz -

ndebord
September 17th, 2005, 01:58 PM
TOTAL COMMANDER is perfect. i have yet to find somebody who really (!) tried it to come up with a different opinion. even those diehards. once more: for those who disagree, just try it.

it has another advantage: the owner of the program seems to be able to live happily with the fact that though it is shareware, not all people register and pay. it only shows a nag screen on startup, and works and works and works, for years if you want. even updates keept you settings.

most people will a pay eventually, but the others who just use it 5 times a year make so much advertisement for it, that he eventually (and hopefully) comes out ahead. wish most authors would think that way.

Heinz,

I guess I only have one question left to ask. Which is: 16 bit or 32 bit version?

<g>

ndebord
September 17th, 2005, 02:04 PM
N, I held out for a very long time with Win98 but now have upgraded with new PCs and WinXP Pro. I can tell you they are like a breath of fresh air with their capabilities, speed, stability, etc.

Pete,

Not a big fan of XP, Pro or Home. Have installed it elsewhere and have run W2000 Pro on this aging laptop (Compaq Armada M300-600, 320 Megs RAM).

W98se does what I want and it is tweaked to the Nines, although there are even more extreme measures I could do to it if I so wished. Hasn't crashed on me in 3 months (since I loaded up a very good unofficial upgrade pack) and handles all the periphs I need for now. USB 2 would be nice, but then I like FireWire better and that is not available (generally).

No desktops need apply in my house!

<g>

ndebord
September 17th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Belatedly:

Agree - Total Commander is fine. It pioneered the "ftp as part of the filemanager" feature, and has a nice Win3 look for us old f*rts. Oh, yes - it also works.

Frank,

Thanks. You and Dan seem to like it, so I'm downloading the 32 bit version as we speak. File Wizard (the Czech thing is the DOS one I'm using that does LFNS) and of course, there is always hope to find the mythical hacked NC that also handles LFNS!!!

<VBG>

Judy G. Russell
September 17th, 2005, 02:11 PM
we are camping out in the living room while the dog recovers from knee surgerySpeaking of whom...?

ndebord
September 17th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Mine. Wife's (sharing a computer when one spouse is right-brained and the other is left-brained is NOT a good idea). And now, a laptop downstairs as we are camping out in the living room while the dog recovers from knee surgery. Numbers 4 and 5 would be the odd hardware visiting from friends and neighbors to be repaired (or in most cases to have the garbage taken out).

The new power outlet spec looks like the way to go IF I ever decide to do a network. I have a laptop, my wife has a laptop and my DTP work requires a laptop (Apple iBook which I seldom use). Right now I use sneaker net to move stuff around (256 meg CF card on an adaptor for PCMCIA). Works for me.

To run cables in my old Brownstone would be a shame or a hazaard, as I am upstairs and she down!

heinz57g
September 17th, 2005, 03:00 PM
>> ndebord ... only have one question left to ask. Which is: 16 bit or 32 bit version?

well, if you ask me nice enough, i'll find my old DOS version of it!

seroiusly: do not bother with the cracked versions on the net. use the one straight from the owners site ( http://www.ghisler.com ).

greetings - heinz -

ndebord
September 17th, 2005, 10:14 PM
well, if you ask me nice enough, i'll find my old DOS version of it!

seroiusly: do not bother with the cracked versions on the net. use the one straight from the owners site

Heinz,

Pretty pretty please with sugar on top. (nice enough?) <VBG>

And yes I did go to the real website to get my download. Thanks for alerting me to the cracked and/or virus loaded versions masquerading out there.

ndebord
September 24th, 2005, 12:05 AM
>> ndebord ... only have one question left to ask. Which is: 16 bit or 32 bit version?

well, if you ask me nice enough, i'll find my old DOS version of it!

seroiusly: do not bother with the cracked versions on the net. use the one straight from the owners site ( http://www.ghisler.com ).

greetings - heinz -

Heinz,

Total Commander is amazing, even with the innocuous nag screen.

I've yet to scratch the surface of it, but I'm already using it in place of Windows Explorer. I still use Directory Wizard, an open source descendent of the PC Mag utils like DC and DR. It allows you to load up DOS and some windows programs of your choice on hotkeys, which is where XXCOPY comes in handy, but Total Commander adds in double panes and so much else.

Wow!

heinz57g
September 24th, 2005, 05:23 AM
tks, N. appeciated this comment, bcs i had recommeneded it here several times, hardly anybody tried it. i know I can be wrong (ask my wife), but hundreds of my colleagues and friends and biz partners cannot.

i still too use many old DOS progs, some just for fun, some for their utter reliabiliy. and then there are those that still beat WIN, at least in simplicity. anything that works with, feeds into or uses 4DOS usually rocks.

greetings - heinz -

ndebord
September 24th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Heinz,

H>> ...i had recommeneded it here several times, hardly anybody tried it. i know I can be wrong (ask my wife), but hundreds of my colleagues and friends and biz partners cannot.

TC is very nice indeed. Won't find too many others who will even try a DOS program though...but that is their loss imo. <wry grin>

H>> i still too use many old DOS progs, some just for fun, some for their utter reliabiliy. and then there are those that still beat WIN, at least in simplicity. anything that works with, feeds into or uses 4DOS usually rocks.

4DOS is/was great. I used it for years. I made a conscious decision not to use it any longer some time ago for reasons that escape me now. In comparison to back then, I run a pretty vanilla W98se aside from the unofficial windows update pack I use instead of MR BIll's offering

http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

Just mention the C: prompt if you want to get an empty stare! The lessons learned by having to master DOS are just no longer learned. Ah well, each generation to its own form of computing. As for DOS apps that still rock. I'm an editor and writer and I use DOS first, then Windoze. I write using QEdit, a DOS text editor that masquerades as a word processor. I also use 2 popup TSRs with it that are pretty near irreplaceable in my opinion (Wordfinder from Microlytics and Webster's New World Speller (Korenthal)...all deadware of course. (I'm using it now to write this and I'll use an addon macro Semware users came up with to copy this to the windows clipboard for posting.)

Judy G. Russell
September 24th, 2005, 10:03 AM
tks, N. appeciated this comment, bcs i had recommeneded it here several times, hardly anybody tried it.I think one reason why is that a lot of us moved early on over to PowerDesk (http://www.v-com.com/product/PowerDesk_Pro_Home.html), which does a lot of the same things, and don't see a reason to switch.

heinz57g
September 24th, 2005, 11:51 AM
judy, then check it out: no comparison, not even close.

quotes (not mine, not related):

>> I was a big fan of PowerDesk until I started using this excellent,
>> efficient program. It does everything I want in a small, well
>> designed package. I couldn't work as well without it.


>> 5 out of 5 -- Isn't there a way to remove Windows and keep only TC?
>> That's the level of quality of this product. :)
>> I'm amazed at every new version.

>> http://fileforum.betanews.com/review/945901171/1/view?sortby=rating

but as i said: try it.

greetings - heinz -

Judy G. Russell
September 24th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I carefully reviewed the feature set. There's nothing TC can do that I need done that PowerDesk doesn't do. That's not to say one doesn't have features the other has; it's just a statement that PowerDesk does what I need done, and I don't see the reason to add another program to the mix.

fhaber
September 25th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Virtue is no monopoly in the world of replacement Windows filemanagers. There must be a need. Two that haven't been mentioned:

Ztree Windows, that rare bird, a 32-bit console program. Very fast. Started as an Xtree clone.

Directory Opus 8, a very visual Ozzie program, but with full scripting - and yes, it knows about and uses DESCRIPT.ION files. http://www.gpsoft.com.au Don't judge it by it's manual; instead take the time to play through the third-party animated tutorials and read its support boards.

Judy G. Russell
September 25th, 2005, 02:37 PM
There most surely is a need. I'd be screaming with frustration if I was stuck with that Windows Explorer disaster.

fhaber
September 26th, 2005, 08:15 AM
>that Windows Explorer disaster.

I'd put it rather that Windows Explorer is a rather good skeleton outline for a filemanager. I wouldn't fire the employee who offered it as a proposal for what he'd flesh out later.

YMMV. For balance, might I just remind you of one thing?


Swallow that mouthful of coffee, now.




WINFILE.EXE

Judy G. Russell
September 26th, 2005, 04:46 PM
For balance, might I just remind you of one thing? Swallow that mouthful of coffee, now. WINFILE.EXEAieeeee!!!